25 replies to this topic

[surferboy]

no, i'm not completely new, i do realize that each has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

but which builds hold the higher ground over the other? in what ways do the trump each other?

[Suzz]

both are good....but i wil go on with RG.

[FoxyWoxy]

Well heres a link for good skill descriptions
http://forums.irowik...ead.php?t=33721

I would say that RGs can take many paths in their builds.

[EvilLoynis]

The main difference I find between the two is the difficulty in getting there. Now to be clear I have not used a Knight yet but I do have a level 96 Crusader.

The main problem with leveling a Crusader is that they don't have any good AoE attacks. yeah yeah i know Grand Cross but that really only good against Shadow & Undead and even there it's been nerf'd because of renewal. Actually my guy was a GC Sader pre renewal. He was at lvl 56 and I had kind of left him there until the reset became available. Then I went AGI/Spear.

Knights on the other hand have BBash and Brandish to help Mob Level.

[TheSquishy]

GC is so nerfed now compared to what it used to be.

I like RG cuz i like tanking.

[Gn1ydnu]

in what ways do the trump each other?

Honestly, if a well geared pro RK fought against a well geared pro RG the entire fight would evolve around a supply war. Neither class has a 1 hit kill move that is effective vs the other (besides deathbound, but a pro RG player will avoid this at all costs). Since it comes down to a simple matter of a supply war, a royal guard wins. Clashing Spiral and Dragon's Breath are both ranged which means that a RG's DA will make those damages reduced to only a couple thousand points of HP lost, basically 1 fruit/slim worth of damage. If a RK goes to deal melee then a RG will also have an advantage in reflecting at least 100% of the damage back to the RK. This means that a RG needs to only deal minimal damage to out "supply" a RK. The ways in which a RG can deal this damage (remember it has to be non melee) are with RS, GD (damages SP, more supplies used by RK), Vanishing point (7 cell range), and pin point attack. If both characters and players are equal then there is no reason for a RK to win ever, on a 1v1.

However their over all roles are more important. A RG is much more of a tank that can deal decent damage. A RK's main use now is almost that of a pre-renewal HW with precasting/stacking. Verse other classes a RK can definably make use of Dragon Breathing until they are sure the enemy is wearing fire armor and then land a kill shot using water element attack. As far as variety in builds, a RG can be supper defensive and resume the old sac role or they can be supper offensive/distracting with inspiration. Even with no inspiration they can still add vital additional damage. RK's now have the highest HP, so that must be a major factor, however RG's still have the best defensive skills in the game.

I am biased, but I do believe 100% on a 1v1, equally geared/equally skilled players, a RG will win.

[iiNote]

Honestly, if a well geared pro RK fought against a well geared pro RG the entire fight would evolve around a supply war. Neither class has a 1 hit kill move that is effective vs the other (besides deathbound, but a pro RG player will avoid this at all costs). Since it comes down to a simple matter of a supply war, a royal guard wins. Clashing Spiral and Dragon's Breath are both ranged which means that a RG's DA will make those damages reduced to only a couple thousand points of HP lost, basically 1 fruit/slim worth of damage. If a RK goes to deal melee then a RG will also have an advantage in reflecting at least 100% of the damage back to the RK. This means that a RG needs to only deal minimal damage to out "supply" a RK. The ways in which a RG can deal this damage (remember it has to be non melee) are with RS, GD (damages SP, more supplies used by RK), Vanishing point (7 cell range), and pin point attack. If both characters and players are equal then there is no reason for a RK to win ever, on a 1v1.

However their over all roles are more important. A RG is much more of a tank that can deal decent damage. A RK's main use now is almost that of a pre-renewal HW with precasting/stacking. Verse other classes a RK can definably make use of Dragon Breathing until they are sure the enemy is wearing fire armor and then land a kill shot using water element attack. As far as variety in builds, a RG can be supper defensive and resume the old sac role or they can be supper offensive/distracting with inspiration. Even with no inspiration they can still add vital additional damage. RK's now have the highest HP, so that must be a major factor, however RG's still have the best defensive skills in the game.

I am biased, but I do believe 100% on a 1v1, equally geared/equally skilled players, a RG will win.

Yes but then again there's Ignition Break + Storm Blast which pretty much leaves the RG in critical HP...
Or Rhydo Rune that pretty much one shoots the RG in the first place...
Also RK's have millenium Shield and they can hold upto 10 of those... that's around 20-40 hits blocked... so yeah... try getting past that..
Also that rune that doubles the HP pots heal, and RK's have higher HP Pool... so... if RG's do reflect dmg... we can steal heal a chunk more than RG's can.

I think your theory was not including runes... but do remember runes come to play in duels... we aren't called rune knights for nothing ;P

Edited by iiNote, 27 January 2011 - 09:27 AM.

[EvilLoynis]

I find it kind of annoying that they make Sader/Pally/RG's have less HP even after they have to use 10 Skill points in Faith! I mean that kind of sucks how important it is to get Faith maxed to have access to like 2/3's of skills.

I am also really enjoying your arguments about the RK vs RG match up. I am not sure who would win myself but I am leaning towards the RG myself.


BTW does anyone know where or what the skill Storm Blast is supposed to be? I can't find it on the Royal Knight sorry meant Rune Knight. (Got mixed up with Royal Guard & Lord Knight)

Edited by EvilLoynis, 27 January 2011 - 03:32 PM.

[surferboy]

if it comes down to a supply war between two equally skilled players, then the RG should win everytime. his ability to reflect damage is a match winner. and the runes are so expensive that the RK would need to lose tons of money for every measly victory.

[iiNote]

if it comes down to a supply war between two equally skilled players, then the RG should win everytime. his ability to reflect damage is a match winner. and the runes are so expensive that the RK would need to lose tons of money for every measly victory.

You just need one rune.. to instantly kill an RG... Rhydo Rune... It deals around 50-60k with a +7 Glorious Spear (And it doesn't break, since that spear is umbreakable).
So I don't know where you're getting this of.. "You need alot of rune, and unlimited zenny to kill an RG"
Yes they have reflect damage... but we have runes that make pots heal 4-5k HP per pot...
And we have WAY more HP than RG's... not to mention Millenium Shield which is basicly the most cheapest rune to make...
All it needs is Elder Branch, a rune (can be bought at an npc) and a Dullahan Armor Piece which drops like jellopies...

If a RK goes to a duel without runes then he is not a Rune Knight... and is a complete noob that doesn't know how to use his skills to his advantage...
RK's aren't just CS/DB spamming zombies...
Well least not the good ones...

[iiNote]

I find it kind of annoying that they make Sader/Pally/RG's have less HP even after they have to use 10 Skill points in Faith! I mean that kind of sucks how important it is to get Faith maxed to have access to like 2/3's of skills.

I am also really enjoying your arguments about the RK vs RG match up. I am not sure who would win myself but I am leaning towards the RG myself.


BTW does anyone know where or what the skill Storm Blast is supposed to be? I can't find it on the Royal Knight.

What's a Royal Knight o.o?
And Storm Blast is a skill from Rune Knight's Rune called Pertz...

Edited by iiNote, 27 January 2011 - 01:27 PM.

[SirDouglas]

RG wins in everything

http://forums.irowik...70&postcount=28

[Gn1ydnu]

You just need one rune.. to instantly kill an RG... Rhydo Rune... It deals around 50-60k with a +7 Glorious Spear (And it doesn't break, since that spear is umbreakable).

I don't think so. 1 shot KO on a RG isn't easy, regardless of class. Guard will block it by a large %. Also if that "50~60k" (random numbers) is ranged then your looking at "10~12k" damage. If its melee then your looking at 70~90k reflected back to the RK. Honestly I don't care because I have full confidence in killing any RK on a RG. The only time I lost in a duel vs a RK was when my RG was level 110 and the RK was 136 and it was a "no supply" duel, I won 1 out of 3. I would love to see the level difference reversed and see a RK beat the RG 1 out of 3 (or better), but simply it would never happen if the players are both the same player skill.

Also, the RK was using all the runes they could along with 26 levels higher and still lost a match O_O.

[EvilLoynis]

RG wins in everything

http://forums.irowik...70&postcount=28

This thread is so inaccurate in it's comparisons.

One thing I noticed is that it says Sonic Wave and Canon Spear have equal damage and that is a lie. CSpear is 250% and SW is 1000% which is a BIG difference. Yes Wave is single target and CS is AoE but still big difference and really shouldn't be compared to each other. Also CS cast time, delay and sp cost has not been listed on the iro wiki site yet so not sure how he's really comparing them.

One other thing to note here, the official site says that CS also get added damage based off of Bash lvl, where as irowiki says str. (Also this seems kind of redundant. I mean which skills do not increase damage due to higher Str???, kind of retarded to note that)



Ignition Break Vs OverBrand,

No info given on delay on either wiki or official sites. Also IB has no aoe listed so it's harder to compare.



Banishing Point Vs Hundred Spears

Well first one of these, BP, has a 7 Cell Range and the other is Melee. Also I think a better comparison here would have been BP vs SW really. Also HS deals about 2x the damage of BP, more if SB activates.


Overall this thread gives some bad comparisons and quotes info that has not been posted to irowiki or the official website so no one knows if it's true or not.

[EvilLoynis]

You know the one thing I find really annoying when everyone compares 3rd classes against each other is that they rarely take into account the 2nd class and trans skills.

I mean I do believe that Royal Guard beats Rune Knight in the end. However the journey is I believe much easier for a Knight than a Crusader to reach the 3rd classes. First off Knights have only 10 skills to worry about which could use only 76 points total to max them all. A Crusader on the other hand has 18 Skills with 132 skill points needed to max them all. Plus the Crusader will practically always need to use 10 points in Faith meaning he has less points to distribute.

If you look at time it takes to level, and this could be with or without BM's or events, then Knight has the more useful skills to do this. With a Crusader it is dangerous to mob up guys to kill them, you have to spend your time going 1 on 1 Where as the Knight has Burst, Range and Mobbing skills available for killing them plus more base HP. *If you were to pair either class with a Priest then Knight would be even better at leveling quicker even if he had to share the exp. I mean BBash seems easily spamable and pretty cheap at only 22sp needed. (no direct exp using this though so correct me if I am wrong.)
* - If both classes were using the same or about equal level of gear.

Sure if you could instantly get level 150 characters without trying the RG seems unfair, but due to the fact that they are harder to level and build I say it evens out.

In other words when comparing Rune Knights and Royal Guards please don't forget to compare:

Knights Vs Crusaders
&
Lord Knights Vs Paladins

Edited by EvilLoynis, 28 January 2011 - 02:18 AM.

[iiNote]

I don't think so. 1 shot KO on a RG isn't easy, regardless of class. Guard will block it by a large %. Also if that "50~60k" (random numbers) is ranged then your looking at "10~12k" damage. If its melee then your looking at 70~90k reflected back to the RK. Honestly I don't care because I have full confidence in killing any RK on a RG. The only time I lost in a duel vs a RK was when my RG was level 110 and the RK was 136 and it was a "no supply" duel, I won 1 out of 3. I would love to see the level difference reversed and see a RK beat the RG 1 out of 3 (or better), but simply it would never happen if the players are both the same player skill.

Also, the RK was using all the runes they could along with 26 levels higher and still lost a match O_O.

Just cause you beat one RK doesn't mean all RK's are the same

[SirDouglas]

Crusader> Knight
Paladin> Lk
Royal guard> Rk

Gravity tried to balance the classes and failed. JRO already know that.

Royal Guard

* Reflect Damage - Blocked on all game maps
* Overbrand - Blocked on all game maps
* Inspiration - Blocked on all game maps
* Pinpoint Attack - Not usable in siege
* Earth Drive - Usable only in siege

http://forums.irowik...ead.php?t=67012

[Runemauler]

I happen to have a Knight and a Sader, both about ready to trans, and I can tell you that the Knight has been MANY times easier to level than the Sader! Of course, like a retard, I went GC with the Sader. So; that might have had a lot to do with it. The Knight is a Spear build.

[EvilLoynis]

Crusader> Knight
Paladin> Lk
Royal guard> Rk

Gravity tried to balance the classes and failed. JRO already know that.

Royal Guard

* Reflect Damage - Blocked on all game maps
* Overbrand - Blocked on all game maps
* Inspiration - Blocked on all game maps
* Pinpoint Attack - Not usable in siege
* Earth Drive - Usable only in siege

http://forums.irowik...ead.php?t=67012

I am curious as to the reasoning of your first 2 claims that Crusader and Pally are better than Knight and Lord Knight. Can you please be more specific in how they are supposedly better?

Knight > Crusader because of Bowling Bash + Pierce
Lord Knight > Pally cut almost equal due to Clashing Spiral and Rapid Smiting. But LK still a bit better because they still have BB.

Also I got to say if I see iro following the lead of that thread with disabling practically 90% of RG skills that I will be saying goodbye to this game forever. I mean when there are balance issues you don't just take out every damn skill a class has to try to "fix" the problem. I mean there is one other way they could easily nerf some of the problems without that.
#1 would be to take out Moonlight Dagger or make it NOT work in a way that lets it be so abusable like that.
#2 you could always eliminate allowing that Ka skill to be cast on anyone not a Linker and again problem solved.

These two things were just off the top of my head as well.

I happen to have a Knight and a Sader, both about ready to trans, and I can tell you that the Knight has been MANY times easier to level than the Sader! Of course, like a retard, I went GC with the Sader. So; that might have had a lot to do with it. The Knight is a Spear build.

Didn't see this till after my post but thanks for it.
BTW I don't consider myself a retard and I went GC build with my Sader as well. However this was before renewal hit and it was a better idea back then. Thank god for the free reset they did that I was able to fix it.

The problem with Sader is that there is only really 3 builds to choose from, Grand Cross, Spear/Agi, or a Shield build.

GC - This has been severely nerf'd with renewal and pretty well sucks now.
Shield - only really good for a Tanker/mobber with say a Wiz to help kill.
Spear/Agi - The only real build that you stand a decent chance leveling with really.


Even when you get to trans to Pally I am not really sure that you have much choice other then one of the above 3. Although Shield becomes a better idea than it was due to Rapid Smiting.

Edited by EvilLoynis, 28 January 2011 - 11:52 AM.

[Runemauler]

BTW I don't consider myself a retard and I went GC build with my Sader as well. However this was before renewal hit and it was a better idea back then.

Well I did not mean to imply that anyone who's Sader \ Pali was GC was foolish for it. I only made mine about a month ago. I hadn't played RO in over 4 years (lost in Azeroth - Oh Noes!) and was pretty out of touch with what builds were viable, and which weren't. I'm thinking Shield would be cool. I like tanking \ mobbing, and I have no interest in PvP. Just thought I'd chime in as to the difference in leveling difficulty.

EDIT:

It just so happens that I need advice on a Shield Pali build. So if you're feeling generous (or just plain critical) you might check out my other post:

http://forums.warppo...-advice-needed/

Edited by Runemauler, 28 January 2011 - 12:09 PM.

[SirDouglas]

I am curious as to the reasoning of your first 2 claims that Crusader and Pally are better than Knight and Lord Knight. Can you please be more specific in how they are supposedly better?

Crusader and paladins are better because of his defensive skills (reflect and defending aura ) and his offensive skills. A paladin kill a lord knight with rapid smith and matyr, but a lord knight will not kill a paladin with cs and bb.

cruzader Spear + Shield + Spear quiken (20 flee, critical, hit) + holy cross > knight Spear + Shield + pierce

Edited by SirDouglas, 28 January 2011 - 01:52 PM.

[FoxyWoxy]

So I few Points
1. I can't believe anyone made a comparison to skills, maybe I should make a comparison to shield boom and firebolt then call mages the most broken class in game -.-
2. That comparison was made before iRO even got renewal and sadly a lot of people were speculating things. Sura's GoH wasn't anything popular before iRO got it just to make an example.
3. If you're talking about jRO, have you opened your own link to see the other blocked skills?

[EvilLoynis]

Crusader and paladins are better because of his defensive skills (reflect and defending aura ) and his offensive skills. A paladin kill a lord knight with rapid smith and matyr, but a lord knight will not kill a paladin with cs and bb.

cruzader Spear + Shield + Spear quiken (20 flee, critical, hit) + holy cross > knight Spear + Shield + pierce

Ok I think I now see where you are coming from a bit.

You are ONLY speaking of PVP in your comparisons and nothing else really. I have to say in my comparisons I am not really putting that much emphasis on PvP but on OVERALL play. Including PvM, MvP and PvP. I think if you look at this a bit more you might agree where a purely PvP approach to rating is not really appropriate. There is more to the game afterall then that.



You are also not really looking at Crusader skills and what they "cost" to get. I mean to max each of the skills you listed, (Holy Cross, Spear Quicken and Shield Reflect) costs 58 Skill Points and this is without getting Faith Maxed for more HP or getting the Peco skills. With those 2 things as well your looking at 67 Skill Points which is Barely doable when you get trans'd. I think you forget that your going to have to leave yourself open in one area as a Crusader if going PvP like not getting the spear skills. Take a look at the skill simulator yourself and try to max everything you wanted and see.

http://web.hc.keio.a...skill3/cru.html


Added Note: I do enjoy debating this with you as well. I just like the fact that we can disagree and no one has started questioning the others sexual habits or bringing their mother in to the conversation lol. Your arguments have opened my eyes a bit to other possibilities regarding my Sader.

Edited by EvilLoynis, 28 January 2011 - 09:41 PM.

[TheSquishy]

A RG should win against an equally skilled RK.

RG has an answer for everything an RK can throw out.

But if it's any consolation,
a SC has an answer to everything a RG will throw out.

Therefore,
Rune Knight with Shadower Chaser friend will always best a Royal Guard.

[SeyrenLK]

it's not the class, it's the pilot