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Drawing the Line for Locking


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#1 Midoof

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 06:41 PM

Those who've participate in pvp have no doubt experienced locking, whether doing it themselves or being on the receiving end. Some classes naturally have easier locks than others. This is NOT a thread about whether they are broken, undeserved, etc. I'm simply curious what's the community's opinion on the definition of a lock in comparison to an extended combo.

I have plenty of pally friends and one of them brought up their simple but clever way of separating the two. A lock is when the opponent is kept disabled through repeated cycling of the same skills (broom jab, sword dance, cross cut, broom jab, etc) while an extended combo is simply a combo where there is no repeated skill use. This seemed to be an excellent way of separating the two instead of say, amount of time disabled or something else really silly.

Thoughts?
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#2 Akihiro

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 06:57 PM

I'd say that's about correct.
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#3 Thuy

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 12:07 PM

Thoughts?


I would also say if the player has a chance to escape(ground roll and air recovery) then it's not a lock.

Example: Ninja's ambush dagger fly combo, you can always air recover from it but if you fail to recover at the right time you're going to go through the combo cycle again. They're actually catching you again after your recover so it might seem like a lock.

If they're repeating skills that uses a % to lock such as the hammer and rocket punch repeatedly then I would consider it a lock.
Even though you can escape from it, it is not through your own control but because the stun failed.

Edited by Thuy, 11 April 2011 - 12:08 PM.

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#4 Midoof

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 05:57 PM

I'd be inclined to agree with you Thuy, assuming the player being caught in the combo has enough mvspd to definitively escape from the AoE of Ninja's fly. This doesn't seem to be the case for the majority of classes though, at least for aerial recovery. Otherwise, I agree with your point that it's simply re-catching an opponent after they escape (provided they have ample opportunity).
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#5 Thuy

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 06:13 PM

That's the thing why people feel like it is a lock with the fly combo. People are air recovering too early that's why I stated, "but if you fail to recover at the right time you're going to go through the combo cycle again." The thing is to air combo AFTER fly so they cannot hit you again when you're in the air. Well, I just remember about the fly nerf to 8 seconds cooldown now, so this combo isn't a problem anymore.
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#6 Valsu

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 11:50 AM

Those who've participate in pvp have no doubt experienced locking, whether doing it themselves or being on the receiving end. Some classes naturally have easier locks than others. This is NOT a thread about whether they are broken, undeserved, etc. I'm simply curious what's the community's opinion on the definition of a lock in comparison to an extended combo.

I have plenty of pally friends and one of them brought up their simple but clever way of separating the two. A lock is when the opponent is kept disabled through repeated cycling of the same skills (broom jab, sword dance, cross cut, broom jab, etc) while an extended combo is simply a combo where there is no repeated skill use. This seemed to be an excellent way of separating the two instead of say, amount of time disabled or something else really silly.

Thoughts?


I hope the PvP savy community can forgive this comment. Bluntly put. Locking/Extended Combos or whatever are what makes PvP interest suffer. You don't see people locking in boxing matches do you? The ref breaks up the fighters. The same should be done here. A maximum set time for dealing damage using skills and then break em up. It's fair and will result in a larger interest in PvP. As it is now unless you're a locking class, don't get involved in PvP.
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#7 asdfjkl

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 12:32 PM

This isn't boxing, dummy.....

Edited by asdfjkl, 13 April 2011 - 12:33 PM.

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#8 MicoJive

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 12:37 PM

...in boxing if a fighter is kept in a "lock" and unresponsive the fight is called and the opponent wins...
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#9 Valsu

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 12:42 PM

...in boxing if a fighter is kept in a "lock" and unresponsive the fight is called and the opponent wins...


Enjoy the few and far between opponents then! :P
You're lucky I'm not in charge of new game element implementation or the "Break it up" programming would already be in this game! :P

Edited by Valsu, 13 April 2011 - 12:44 PM.

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#10 Chrysanthemum

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 12:57 PM

But how do you discern what a long combo is and a lock, I was PVPing with a pally the other night who said he wasn't locking - and that I had *one* shot to get out of the lock. If they're ontop of you pounding you with the same combo but with a split second cooldown inbetween, is that considered acceptable or abuse of the paladins locking power? It's all too confusing. :/

I'll stick to my invoker thanks.
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#11 Valsu

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 01:00 PM

But how do you discern what a long combo is and a lock, I was PVPing with a pally the other night who said he wasn't locking - and that I had *one* shot to get out of the lock. If they're ontop of you pounding you with the same combo but with a split second cooldown inbetween, is that considered acceptable or abuse of the paladins locking power? It's all too confusing. :/

I'll stick to my invoker thanks.


+1
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#12 Kazra

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 01:05 PM

If you have a chance to get out without relying on luck(miss, block), then that's not a lock. And most of the time paladins finish their combo using stormblade or rolling ground. If one of those 2 are used, then the lock ended. Even if you get caught a second later, that would be your fault.

Generally you're only allowed to use each disabling skill once in the combo (Rocket punch, crosscut, etc) but it's fine if it is a weak skill that you need to link to other parts of your combo such as how SD is used for catching and also needed in the same combo to execute Raising Storm correctly. Also, a second RP in a RP -> Mist -> VB -> RP -> dagger -> ambush combo would be fine as well. Though you can skip the 2nd RP and just go for dagger -> ambush which would work too, but sometimes the lag causes them to roll during the ambush :| Another one can be for harlequins. If they catch you with RP, they can FD, RP, cossack, and USD. This is what is generally accepted as far as I've seen.

Edited by Kazra, 13 April 2011 - 01:13 PM.

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#13 canajew

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 01:33 PM

If you have a chance to get out without relying on luck(miss, block), then that's not a lock. And most of the time paladins finish their combo using stormblade or rolling ground. If one of those 2 are used, then the lock ended. Even if you get caught a second later, that would be your fault.

Generally you're only allowed to use each disabling skill once in the combo (Rocket punch, crosscut, etc) but it's fine if it is a weak skill that you need to link to other parts of your combo such as how SD is used for catching and also needed in the same combo to execute Raising Storm correctly. Also, a second RP in a RP -> Mist -> VB -> RP -> dagger -> ambush combo would be fine as well. Though you can skip the 2nd RP and just go for dagger -> ambush which would work too, but sometimes the lag causes them to roll during the ambush :| Another one can be for harlequins. If they catch you with RP, they can FD, RP, cossack, and USD. This is what is generally accepted as far as I've seen.

I've seen a lot of pali's launch you and re-catch you with crosscut, now technically I had half a second to try and move away but without mass movement speed stacking there's no way out. Would you consider this a lock?
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#14 MicoJive

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 01:48 PM

each person will have there own definition of a lock. When i use my pally its sd to catch if needed, or else crosscut -> broom --> aerial --> spin -> sb. then if i can catch you with just jump attacking you fail and deserve to get combo'd again.
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#15 Thuy

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 03:01 PM

I've seen a lot of pali's launch you and re-catch you with crosscut, now technically I had half a second to try and move away but without mass movement speed stacking there's no way out. Would you consider this a lock?


I think you've answered your own question! You regained control over your character for "half a second" so you had a chance to escape. Have you tried moving in different direction during air recovery, because personally I've had this happen to me in my older, slower gear.
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#16 Paxon

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 03:07 PM

I think you've answered your own question! You regained control over your character for "half a second" so you had a chance to escape. Have you tried moving in different direction during air recovery, because personally I've had this happen to me in my older, slower gear.


how do you move out of it? dashing? because (I'm not sure if this is what happened, been a long time since i played this game) sometimes I flinch in the air then go down. how do i fix that?
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#17 Kazra

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 03:49 PM

I've seen a lot of pali's launch you and re-catch you with crosscut, now technically I had half a second to try and move away but without mass movement speed stacking there's no way out. Would you consider this a lock?

No. Pick a better place to land and dash away.
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#18 BigCU

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:56 PM

But how do you discern what a long combo is and a lock, I was PVPing with a pally the other night who said he wasn't locking - and that I had *one* shot to get out of the lock. If they're ontop of you pounding you with the same combo but with a split second cooldown inbetween, is that considered acceptable or abuse of the paladins locking power? It's all too confusing. :/

I'll stick to my invoker thanks.

erm..thats what this topic is about..?

So far Im liking the original post. If you loop your skills[that enable you to lock] in a single combo its locking. Only exception is skills that rely on chance to immobilize you like rocketpunch cause technically you had a 30% chance of breaking away..luck just wasnt on yourside. Sometimes it comes down to just that, luck. UNLESS you're getting a rocketpunch the size of my ___ coming at you. Then that just aint right..
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