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Feedback Wanted: Level difference and EXP gain


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Poll: Feedback Wanted: Level difference and EXP gain (446 member(s) have cast votes)

Which frustrates you personally regarding the Level difference and EXP gain potential?

  1. Monsters that are too HIGH of a level compared to a character giving less EXP? (339 votes [83.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 83.70%

  2. Monsters that are too LOW of a level compared to a character giving less EXP? (66 votes [16.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.30%

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#1 Heimdallr

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 10:28 AM

Hello everyone.

I'm sure many have already read the "Future Direction of Ragnarok" thread and have feelings of anticipation or dread regarding various parts of what was discussed. Our plan is still underway of course but I wanted to get some feedback regarding specific parts of what was discussed.

The big thing I want to discuss in this thread is the Exp penalty.

Exp penalty basically makes the exp of the monster give less than its base value when your level is too different from that of the monsters. Currently if you are ~ 30 levels different (high or low) from the monster you effectively aren't earning exp from that monster.

What my question is, which part wing of the Level penalty has caused you the most distress:

  • Monsters that are too HIGH of a level than a character giving less EXP?
  • Monsters that are too LOW of a level than a character giving less EXP?
I know this may seem like an oversimplification, but depending upon which of the 2 options is decidedly more of a problem it could change what we do to improve the system.
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#2 Allysia

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:07 AM

I voted this: "Monsters that are too HIGH of a level compared to a character giving less EXP?" cos is always frustrating have good characters that can kill high lvl monsters but that then don't receive a good reward for having killed something of really hard.
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#3 DrAzzy

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:22 AM

There are several issues here...


1) People can often easilly kill monsters before they can get exp from those monsters ("less exp from monsters that are too high of a level" - combined with an overall lack of challenge.

2) There is a horrible lack of options for high level monsters in general, forcing many players to grind on weak monsters, because there's nothing of higher level that's practical to level on. If Scaraba Hole was implemented, the high level situation would be significantly easier. Also, if leveling in biolabs offered a reward appropriate for the difficulty of the monsters, that would help aleviate this.

Really I think the problem is that the level range is too narrow. Even this wouldn't be as much of an issue, except that there are hardly any choices for places to level beyond 120. I mean, you go AL 120-130, but after that, you grind there until you hit the exp penalty, then grind there and deal with the brutal exp penalty, because it's still faster than the horrible crappy options otherwise available to you.

There just aren't enough good maps. High monster density is an absolute 100% must now - because there are no monsters that offer rewards that make them worth killing one at a time after level 110 or so. That leaves us with very few maps to level on, and with the level range further restricting us, it's often possible to find only one acceptable leveling ground for a charachter at a time - if that.


The more I think about the issue of the level exp penalty, the more I think that scrapping it entirely may not be the right solution. If we could widen the acceptable level range, and at the same time, fix some existing maps to be useful to level on, that would make the game work a lot better - without having to redo the experience curve, and without having to redo the exp awards from every monster in the game.


For example, thors is supposed to be a good place to level on. Why isn't it? Because the monsters are somewhat painful, the zone spawns were removed (WHY?!?!), the spawn is not sufficient to really mob... All of which would be fine, if killing them one-three at a time gave decent rewards. But it doesnt.
If I was going to fix thors, i'd do something like:
Restore zone spawns like pre-renewal.
Kasa attk should be upped like 25-50% (so the map is a challenge), and exp award should be increased significantly, so killing them with single target skills or in small mobs produces decent exp. Salamanders and guardians would get similar treatment - the idea being to make them scarier than kasas, so people have to avoid them, or prepare for a tough fight to kill them. (It's too easy to just rambo everything in renewal, go in guns blazing and everything comes out dead)

Bio3, obviously, needs to have the rewards on the monsters boosted. Alot. The bio3 monsters are actually challenging. They're alot more than 3 times as challenging as other monsters a few levels lower. Even with the 40% penalty - one bio monster is harder to deal with than a mob of whatever giving you equiv exp (even though you only get 40% of normal exp from the dragons because you've overleveled them). The rewards should be increased to 2.5-5x what they are now in biolabs. Zone spawns should be returned to biolabs, with the exception of the instaspawn HWiz and Sniper on the pillars.

Scaraba Hole looks like it will be an excellent map for leveling as it is now. Like, it looks like that map should have been implemented with renewal, so that there was a good place for high level characters to level in renewal - but no, they added an update to raise the max level, then 8 months later, we get a map for the new classes to level on...



I think it would be a valuable exercise to get a list of the current maps that people find usable for leveling (for level's over 100, when it's hard to level - anyone complaining about leveling prior to level 100 isn't trying. There are plenty of people talking about starting the game, getting 99 in under a week, and then being delayed because they did it so fast they don't have the 1.285m to trans with). This would give an idea of what things make a map useful to level on. Here's what I've got:

Niff 2 (only good at low-mid 10x, but definitely a respectable map)
Magma 2
Jup 1
Nameless 2
Abyss Lake 3
Biolabs 2 (for true badasses only, as the map is one of the few maps that's still painful)

Did I miss any good maps?
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#4 Kiehl

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:23 AM

Monsters that are too HIGH + 1

Well geared characters can go for higher level monster if the exp reward is appropriate.
Maybe the problem can reverse when getting close to lvl 150 due to the lack of high level monsters.
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#5 Heimdallr

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 12:24 PM

I do appreciate the complex explanation Azzy, but I am trying to get a black and white statement to be answered for a report regarding the system, so we can change it.

I know that leveling speed and fun in playing touch on many other points than just what is my leveling difference.
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#6 Trixdee

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 12:46 PM

I also voted for that it's frustrating that HIGHER monsters will give less exp. I think if you're capable of killing a monster X levels above you, you should get the full reward.
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#7 Ahlen

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 12:52 PM

The monsters that give good exp to me generally are no challenge and therefore are boring. I miss duo'ing necromancers on a level 80 hwiz prerenewal.
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#8 olbaid

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:26 PM

I voted for monsters that are too HIGH giving low exp as well.

1) This penalty is one of the reasons why partying is dead. A well formed party can definitely level on monsters greater than the current +15, but currently they can not. So they are stuck leveling on maps they can already solo in and everyone complains that exp is horrible in parties.

2) Player skill is marginalized because everyone levels in the safe 15 level buffer. Gone are the days of mages killing very high level monsters with high risk. Everyone is forced to mob to level.
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#9 Ultimate

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:32 PM

I waste millions of zeny on items to go leveling with in high level areas and gain horrible exp. Kasas should give what kasas used to give; noticeable bulk exp. The grind boss, the grind!!! :D
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#10 jax5

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:55 PM

Monsters that are too HIGH of a level than a character giving less EXP
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#11 PhenixFire

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:00 PM

I think Azzy's black and white answer is:

"I'm not sure if it's the penalty or if it's the maps themselves after 130."

The maps he listed below are done perfectly in the idea that:
-Similar Race, Size, or Element
-Mobby Spawn
-Open Areas
-Decent reward with drops, exp
-Can stay there for more than 1 or 2 levels

If you were to ask me if I had a problem with the leveling penalty before 130 I would say absolutely not, but in reality all my chars will go the same route after 99. I will go Magma, Juperos, Al 2, Al 3, 150, and that's kinda sad that I have to do that 8 times in a row to 150 all my chars if I'm searching for the "best exp."

But my option is higher monsters give less exp if we have to choose from one or the other.
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#12 Charon

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:11 PM

If one looks at the current setting, the obvious issue is the awful fall that occurs 15 lvls above, where the exp are essentially only a third of what you got a level before.

To fix this, simply change the ones in blue (currently all 40%) to the numbers below to make it gardual, and then further up make it stick at least at 60%, instead of 40%.

+10 - 140%
+11 - 135%
+12 - 130%
+13 - 125%
+14 - 120%
+15 - 115%
+16 - 110%
+17 - 105%
+18 - 100%
+19 - 95%
+20 - 90%
+21 - 85%
+22 - 75%
+23 - 60%
+24 - 60%
+25 - 60%


This should do the job.


Now if you feel like caring about fine details, you could also refine the lower lvls to be more gradual, without the sudden jumps.
I'll check again how it currently looks and edit a suggestion that just makes it more gradual in a min.

EDIT:
Spoiler


EDIT2:

graph of suggestion lol
compared to current setting



Oh and the poll is lol. The answer is both, but the first option is way more important.

Next thread plz :X

Edited by Charon, 16 May 2011 - 03:28 PM.

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#13 ShrimpGirl

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:15 PM

I also voted for "Monsters that are too HIGH of a level compared to a character giving less EXP". I think if players are willing to spend the zeny/take on the risks of fighting things way over their level, or have played long enough and invested in the gear needed to take on higher leveled monsters, they shouldn't be penalized for that. Might even help promote partying a bit more as support classes might be needed to take on some of those challenges.
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#14 Ahlen

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:17 PM

If it were up to me there would be no exp table, if I can level someone I should be able to level there.
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#15 Blueness

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:45 PM

Both options actually. When you're lower, you want to level on higher things for diversity, and when you're higher (think 130/140's) you want to level at lower places because you're bored to death of abyss!
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#16 OgamiItto

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:49 PM

Personally, I feel that, to a great extent, the experience reward from a monster should be in some proportion to the challenge of killing it. One shouldn't be penalized for taking on a greater challenge, unless there's some alternate reward that more than compensates for it. It's always bothered me in particular the low amount of experience that miniboss-type monsters give, relative to the difficulty of killing them, but it also applies with the current exp system to monsters beyond the bonus exp range. So like most others, I voted for this.

That said, often the best experience can come from quickly killing a greater number of weaker enemies. This really comes back to my point above. If a monster A with 200% of the def and 400% of the HP of a monster B gives only 50% more exp than monster B, it's really not worth killing. And while I can understand the need for an exp penalty, as well as the benefits of a bonus for taking on a greater challenge, it should be tweaked with this in mind. As Azzy said, the range is probably too narrow. For monsters below the character level, the range is not too bad, except for high-level characters; I'd like to see the penalty capped at maybe 50%...but I suppose 35% is alright. But 10% seems excessive to me...even whacking on a tree should improve your abilities (especially your physical condition aka base experience) more than that. But the decline from +11 to +15 is ludicrous...and then the penalty beyond +15...

I can understand the logic behind it. When I was just starting out, a knight took my swordie and an aco friend to level on clocks. They were way too tough for us to handle on our own, but with him tanking, I was able to hit (or more often, miss, till he lent me a triple ancient sabre) away at them, and get much faster exp than we could on something our own level. But there wasn't much challenge involved in killing them, since he was tanking. I'm guessing the point of the penalty is to discourage this kind of thing, and give people a greater benefit for killing things at an appropriate level. However, it doesn't take into account that some classes and some builds are adept at handling monsters much higher level than them.
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#17 Mewchu

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:56 PM

Ya know, as someone said above, if this game was fixed toward where it was a challenge, then it would be far more fun to play.

In my opinion, and this is what I truly believe -- I feel that RO was going in a good direction when repeatable EXP quests were introduced (the valk non-turn in item quests), and when there were high level challenging places for people to play it. (Example: Bio3/Thors/Nameless, etc.) This promoted partying without really cutting EXP gain out and made the game very enjoyable. I really enjoyed all the people I met through partying (whether it was the low level turn in goat parties, or whether it was the high level thors party where I went in with just one other person and we had to be super careful to win.)

The challenge and the social aspects of this game were what I truly enjoyed, and now all I do anymore is solo monsters on my own and chat with the guild on and off, because I'd never party when the EXP I gain isn't even worth it anymore. I've actually also quit since renewal, but I've come back on and off in hopes that maybe this game will mold back to what it was in a way previously.

Edited by Mewchu, 16 May 2011 - 02:56 PM.

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#18 Exeter0

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:09 PM

Ya know, as someone said above, if this game was fixed toward where it was a challenge, then it would be far more fun to play.

In my opinion, and this is what I truly believe -- I feel that RO was going in a good direction when repeatable EXP quests were introduced (the valk non-turn in item quests), and when there were high level challenging places for people to play it. (Example: Bio3/Thors/Nameless, etc.) This promoted partying without really cutting EXP gain out and made the game very enjoyable. I really enjoyed all the people I met through partying (whether it was the low level turn in goat parties, or whether it was the high level thors party where I went in with just one other person and we had to be super careful to win.)

The challenge and the social aspects of this game were what I truly enjoyed, and now all I do anymore is solo monsters on my own and chat with the guild on and off, because I'd never party when the EXP I gain isn't even worth it anymore. I've actually also quit since renewal, but I've come back on and off in hopes that maybe this game will mold back to what it was in a way previously.



+1

Repeatable EXP quests was a way for new players to find friends or a guild. Besides, don't you want players to come back and play RO?

Edited by Exeter0, 16 May 2011 - 04:10 PM.

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#19 brokenguy

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:15 PM

In renewal there seems to be two type of leveling in general. One is the AOE which most class have. The other one is the one hit kill or killing one at a time.(basically listing all the way of killing monster :-p )

I said make some map that are hard but spawn lightly for these solo-er that kill one at a time. Make them double or 3x the exps, since it isn't crowded, I don't think the AOE-er will go onto this map and try to kill.

Another map for the AOE which we have quite a few... AL3, mag2, Jup1, etc.

One last map for party, which combines both of these.


This should help with some leveling problems.
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#20 Drewcifer

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:20 PM

The way it goes now you have to fine tune your build just to be able to level. With level caps I can't just go and try to one on one something a mucher higher level I have to make my build able to handle mobs otherwise leveling becomes insanely slow andboring averaging maybe a level a day with no diversity in what I kill the game comes to a point where there is no point in exploring anymore because I know where I need to go and what I need to kill otherwise I won't be able to level at a decent pace. I miss just going out finding something a lot stronger than me and going at it, now what's the point in the risk its not worth it I won't level any faster in fact I'm gonna level slower killing it.
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#21 penpen

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:30 PM

like everyone says:
i dont get the point of giving less exp for killing a high leveled monster,.

i miss the old party days,
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#22 Scott

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:49 PM

I voted for Monsters that are too LOW of a level compared to a character giving less EXP? because, in reality not everyone can be perfectly suited to an area, and often go to a lower level monster to compensate for that.
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#23 Kaitch

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 05:54 PM

High risk, high reward please.
I'm better than a bot when it come to fighting. Don't force me to fight like one.
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#24 HitokiriRyuken

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 06:29 PM

Gonna have to say too high. Like many other people have mentioned, it'll help promote partying if it's worth the exp to do so. Perhaps have the exp level off around 100 to 120% or so? I'm no expert and just tossing a random number out, but I think gaining less than base for killing strong monsters almost defeats the purpose of going for that challenge. At the same time I do get why it's there (or why I think it's there). People with high lvled friends would just have them tank a super hard monster and speed through the lower levels and get them caught up quickly, which would leave the low level/new characters separated from the older players. That's just how I've viewed it, at least.

(just do whatever it takes to bring back parties! I love them and that's why I made an FS priest!)
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#25 Ianflow

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 06:54 PM

I voted this: "Monsters that are too HIGH of a level compared to a character giving less EXP?" cos is always frustrating have good characters that can kill high lvl monsters but that then don't receive a good reward for having killed something of really hard.


I have to agree with this one. The drop and xp rate when fighting higher leveled monsters is a pain, especially in lower levels where you try to level, and if you don't know, you end up realizing you just wasted pots and time trying to lv up and gain items....
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