46 replies to this topic

[Sera]

Played this character more since renewal hit a while back, still at sort of a middling level, so I've been hesitant to do anything much in WoE (Though, all WoE ever was was my guild failing to FCP me, me getting divested and bwinging back to town to do it again)
But I've noticed that Mech is like... at once completely over powered, but at the same time completely useless.

Been running ET with mech. I greed and repair weapons and kill/tank bio3 mobs. That's pretty much the extent of my usefulness.
My main gripe is that Mado, while designed to be a 'super' form of the class, isn't really that at all, as it just gives me a different set of abilities, rather than augmenting my pre-existing ones.
I know some of the balance things with the mado are being done for purely WoE reasons, but there's a little more to the game than that imo.

Yes, Neutral Barrier can block a lot of nasty stuff, but you have to time the usage just right (1 minute cooldown pretty much means you only get once chance during an MVP battle), and the AoE is so horrifically small that you can't really protect your party, just one or two people, and if you mess up once, you die and lose the mado until you return to town. By the time you return to town, the battle will be over. Which means doing the higher end MVPs on a mech consists of me equipping a bryn and repairing armor mid-battle.

Why is Vulcan Arm even a skill with specialized bullets and everything? IT DOES NOTHING.

High Speed Cart Ram is a great example of "hideously overpowered, but also completely useless" This skill has probably the highest DPS in the game... but... since it's DPS-based, no one wants me to hit anything with it because I'm just wasting the lex that should have gone to the RK or the Sura. Which means if I don't have armor to repair or loot to greed, I basically just sit on my ass and watch them fight. NOT FUN.

Suicidal Destruction, yes, it is capable of wiping guilds in WoE, but like... use it on the upper floors of endless tower and you're pretty much done for the next two floors running back to town.

I'm not asking to be able to do everything, I'd just like a purposed and meaningful role for my character in higher end PVM. I can't kill well without crazy buffs/support and getting in everyone's way. I can't support well, just a couple of awkward skills every couple of minutes that apply to really specific situations.

I can't contribute meaningfully to damage when it counts; I can't provide consistent and reliable support in general situations; I can take a hit, but I can't tank, I can't heal/lex/pneuma consistently like an AB can.

I mean, really, other than highly specific situations, the WoE value of my character is being a suicide bomber, and the PVM value of it is saving my guild leader a few KP on greed scrolls and fixing mid-combat. TWO OF THE THREE THINGS I CAN DO AS A SECOND CLASS NON-TRANS.

[Sera]

Before anyone says anything, no I won't post it there. No one reads those threads anyway. This class seriously needs a lot more attention beyond just "Nerf Suicidal Destruction"

[cybernetic]

Hopefully the April 13 skill balance changes will make mech a little more.. fun? Useful? Neutral barrier+Stealth field get a 5x5 aoe now (though I'd like it to be 7x7!) and also a shorter cool down (60 second cooldown I believe, which again I'd rather be either 30 second cooldown or no cool down at all). Arm cannon is also changed so level 3 is the largest aoe and also the highest damage, which is nice. There are a few other things aswell, but these are the changes im most looking forward too.

Either wayyyy, I pretty much agree. In WoE literally the only thing that is useful is Suicide Destruction, there are a few other skills which could be considered useful, but their effectiveness/IMPACT is almost null (to a guild as a whole). And after using Suicide Destruction all you can do it either hammerfall the people that are left (probably useless, depending.) or just bwing (or die to reflect), which isn't that great either.

Either way i'm crossing my fingers for the April 13 skill balance changes, hopefully they bring some love to mechs.

Edited by cybernetic, 14 June 2011 - 12:54 AM.

[Luckywhiterabbit]

I also agree. I've been playing a mechanic lately, and while I do find this class very fun, I also find it quite frustrating and expensive.

Of course, much of my complaints come from the madogear mode. I really miss being able to use Greed more than anything else. Besides that, being forced to carry around those heavy engine fuel + cannon ball + cooling bullet + barrier maker + blah blah blah. Yes we know this class has a good weight limit and a cart, but for the amount of stuff that we need to lug around, you'd think the effectiveness would be a bit better.

Mado gear is quite gimped in many ways. Using mado fuel for almost every skill, getting overheat when hit too much, unable to be supported by priests, can't use greed, slow movement even with max liscence (acellerate costs fuel...) so on so forth. For all the work and zeny required to keep a madogear up and running, I'd think it would be a bit more powerful and versatile so that all those weaknesses are warrented.

[Imz0r]

I Main a Mado Mechanic, heck its my only character besides my vendor, it's a fairly expensive class and build to play "specially since it was my first character" but i dont regret it.

Im waiting for the skill balance changes to see if its any improvement to the class, they do feel abit luckluster here and there, but they have there uses still.
i tend to spend my time with the precast party during woe, its pretty insane spamming arm cannon/ice launcher with magic strings,
all the mado support skills work really well with the fact everyone is stationary and suiciding at the emp when its in danger.

and besides that i sure do love being part of a fairly niche class playerbase, and all the compliments from people when they see me in my mado haha

PS. i wouldnt mind some kind of seigemode similiar to starcraft seigetanks for Mado haha

Edited by Imz0r, 14 June 2011 - 01:58 AM.

[Fibrizzo]

I mean, really, other than highly specific situations, the WoE value of my character is being a suicide bomber, and the PVM value of it is saving my guild leader a few KP on greed scrolls and fixing mid-combat. TWO OF THE THREE THINGS I CAN DO AS A SECOND CLASS NON-TRANS.

Don't worry. 90% of AB skills are based on first class skills

Anyways, I think MADO mechanics are destinated to be a support class on siege and focusing on precast. I think that their barriers skills are quite good but indeed the area isn't enough. Even their scan is quite usefull for those who don't have MP glasses (I think I'm the only one in the game xP)

And Ice Launcher it's a really good skill for dealing damage in woe.

[huad]

I'm glad somebody made a thread for Mados. I play a Lv150 Mado mech as a main and it really pisses me off when I see people wanting to nerf Mechanics even more, so I want to defend my class.

Everyone focuses on Suicidal Destruction as the major offensive attack. Sure, it could POTENTIALLY, POTENTIALLY wipe guilds. Suicidal Destruction takes a long time to cast. You could EASILY run away from it if you see a Mechanic cast it. I mean really, the Madogear starts spinning around when it gets casted. It's pretty damn obvious and if you get killed by Suicidal Destruction, maybe you should sharpen your observation skills. I don't mean it in a condescending way. What I mean is that if you just go to PVP and ask a Mechanic to SD, you can practice avoiding it by really just recognizing that when the Madogear starts spinning in circles, RUN AWAY! Plus, you lose the freakin Madogear. I'm a MADO build, losing my Madogear is my last resort, not the 1st thing I want to do during a battle x__x. So please, the heat shouldn't be on Suicidal Destruction. There's much more overpowered skills than this. I don't have to list them.

My biggest concern for Mados is their lack of offensive capabilities. Why the hell are Mados forced to be supportive? Are you kidding me? We're riding a big, badass robot for Christ's sake. As a Mastersmith, you get nice offensive skills: HSCR, Power Maximize, Max Power Thrust. Hell, even as a young merchant you had Mammonite. When you become a Mechanic, your offensive capabilities get shot to . Why? Our Madogear License skill even boosts attack, but we're given such mediocre attack skills. We even have a weapon with 450 base ATK (Pile Bunker), yet I can't help but feel that my +9 Pile Bunker is a waste.

I would say the best skill Mados have is Ice Launcher, but my only problem with it is the delays. Sure it has nice dmg (for Lv3 only), but you can't kill with it by yourself b/c of the damn global delay. You can also miss.

Arm Cannon would probably be 2nd, but again, small AOE and LONG delays. Sure you could use Lv1, but it would be dmg, same applies to Ice Launcher.

Our best DPS on Mado, sadly, is probably Arm Cannon. Just b/c it's our "best" DPS doesn't mean it's great. It has pretty low dmg potential, especially being ranged and nerfed during WOE.

Front/Back slide: awesome, but again, b/c of the long global delays on Ice Launcher and Arm Cannon, this is somewhat gimped.

As for supportive skills, they aren't even spectacular. Like people have mentioned, Neutral Barrier has a small AOE, although we are getting an increase in its range. BUT, I want to make this clear b/c I don't think people realize it. When NB is on, all our attacks will MISS, except Arm Cannon. And yes, 1 min or something cooldown until it could be used again = lame.

Stealth Barrier? Who would get that? It lasts like 5 seconds or something and it costs a lot of skill points to get.

Weapon Repair: awesome, big, quick heals. You would think I'd survive longer with it, but running away with Slides improves survivability much more than the heal x_x

Pile Bunker: utterly useless right now, but will become handy when it actually "works as intended." But it's really 3 skill points just to counter RG's and no other class.


I don't feel like typing anymore, but in short, Madogear Mechanics are just stuck in the middle. They're neither spectacular offensively or defensively. I think they should really be pushed to be more offensive, NOT defensive. And people that want to aim the nerf stick at Madogear Mechanics are just oblivious to the class.

Edited by huad, 14 June 2011 - 07:14 AM.

[Andini]

obviously if you just go on a mechanic and try to run into people SDing without any sort of backup or buffs people can easily avoid it. this is simple logic, and just doing that on a mechanic means you're pretty bad and if people still die from it they are even moreso. its not hard to figure out that before you go on a SD tear unless its to just go to protect your emp that you should have secrement on you at all times as well as organize a SD in conjuction with deep sleep/cc/your own magnetic field

i would say the one thing ive noticed most annoying is that you lose all foods/fcp when you get your mado back

[Sera]

Re: Archbishop players:

I've been in plenty of parties where I've heard "Wait, we can't start yet, no AB."

But how many parties have you been in where someone says "Wait, we can't start yet, no mech."

You can also use both your priest skills and AB skills at the same time, without spending 5 minutes switching out of your "super mode"

Also, I don't really even consider myself a mado build. I got Axe Tornado, and spend most of my time playing as a glorified Blacksmith repairing gear and greeding. I did get some of the mado skills to try and support with, but it just frustrates me how exclusive they are, and how badly the loss-of-mado-on-death hurts the class.

A lot of things that are a big deal in WoE, are irrelevant in PVM, and some things that are trivial in WoE, are huge frustrations in PVM.
I just want the class to be reevaluated a bit.
Too many of the skills have too many high level restrictions, you fire them off, and then you have nothing to do in the downtime, there's no filler bread-and-butter skills.
It can't really function in a non-WoE setting unless you're solo.
People would still generally rather have a mastersmith supporting meaningful characters than a mech trying to actually do something.

And, yeah, I do get the feeling mechs are supposed to be like... seige breakers, but why would you do that to a class? I went to bed a pretty decent killing class, and woke up as... well.. a mechanic.

[Andini]

in turn in events like when there was one in kasas or al 3, mado mechs are one of the best and quickest killers with the right set up

[Fibrizzo]

During the Kasa's turn in event I saw a gwing party and the main killer was a MADO mech. Quite crazy see how fast killed hugenormous mobs of Kasas in less than 1 second.

Mechanics are quite usefull and deal pretty good damage. People don't realize that and mech are considered "slow killers" when that's not truth with a good party setup.

[Daize]

I'm not going to go into full detail on this, because the important issues have already been addressed, but I will say this... Mechanic was my first 3rd class, I got him to 110 in mado build and quickly realized how terrible some of the skills were. I would even go further and say that they're worse than terrible, they're just straight up useless. I soon reset back to HSCR build just to mvp to make money in order to get gear for my next 3rd job. No class should make you feel like you've wasted time leveling it because it's THAT underbalanced.

It's been said before in past threads, but I'll say it again as a reminder: Mechanics are mediocre at everything and excel in nothing in particular.

Edited by Daize, 14 June 2011 - 11:06 AM.

[TrueMaster]

Its all revenge for stealing the magic tek gear from final fantasy 6. Square said you can have it but make it crap because ours are better Japanese originals and yours are cheap Korean knock offs. Blame gravity for not buying in on the copyright and having to bow to squares demands once the class and sprite were already made.

[asayuu]

I never played a Mechanic. And I won't, because it's really a waste of time.

I mean, I love blacksmiths and whitesmiths, they have high DPS, ability to boost even more with Adrenaline Rush, Berserk Potions, and the High Speed Cart Ram. At least they have solo capabilites.

Then [Let's think] I spend the reset stone [Not VIP and Valk server~ /omg], and become a Mechanic. Great, I got a robot. And what should I do with it? Waste over 900000z just to explode it?

I mean, if I ever made a mechanic, I would just level the non-mado skills, and then the remaining points would go to BS/WS skills... Or maybe Mammonite.

So. Mechanics are as useful as... Wanderers. Or even less. Only one useful attack skill, one useful support skill, and everything else, medium-to-bad supports.

[Cubical]

When someone suicidal destruction's me in woe i just lol. Though i do think realistically it needs a 5 min cool down so its not abused. Everything else for mechanic, well you guys can argue about that. I've never had interest in the class personally.

And yea to echo what asayuu is saying, Mechanic is a labor of love. If you play the class you better love it. Dont get me wrong im not a stranger to effort, in another game i'm trying to learn a hard to play character. So its not like i dont feel mechs.

Edited by Cubical, 14 June 2011 - 10:52 AM.

[Kadelia]

So. Mechanics are as useful as... Wanderers. Or even less. Only one useful attack skill, one useful support skill, and everything else, medium-to-bad supports.

This is probably true.

My experience is that mechanics with pile driver seem to level as well with arm canon as genetics do with cart canon, so I wouldn't say they are gimped in pvm leveling at all.

Mechanics have been buffed 2-3 times in the past two months on kRO though, so I'd review all of that first.

Edited by Jaye, 14 June 2011 - 11:18 AM.

[Andini]

I never played a Mechanic. And I won't, because it's really a waste of time.

I mean, I love blacksmiths and whitesmiths, they have high DPS, ability to boost even more with Adrenaline Rush, Berserk Potions, and the High Speed Cart Ram. At least they have solo capabilites.

Then [Let's think] I spend the reset stone [Not VIP and Valk server~ /omg], and become a Mechanic. Great, I got a robot. And what should I do with it? Waste over 900000z just to explode it?

I mean, if I ever made a mechanic, I would just level the non-mado skills, and then the remaining points would go to BS/WS skills... Or maybe Mammonite.

So. Mechanics are as useful as... Wanderers. Or even less. Only one useful attack skill, one useful support skill, and everything else, medium-to-bad supports.

wtf, mados can easily solo with cannon/slides or even tornado/hammerfall and are faster to lvl than a bunch of chars. im pretty sure it also cost nothing to get the mado back to blow up cept the fuel

mado mechs or mechs in general solo extremely well and in a turn in party can easily outshine the majority of classes dpswise with the right set up without god items

Edited by Andini, 14 June 2011 - 12:00 PM.

[Nombus]

Indeed, I'm suprised Sera sees the need to keep bringing this up. How many GX complaining threads have you seen in the community area? AFAIK none. They have it worse in everything than Mechanics, arguably even PvP considering the costs and high risk playstyle that are involved with just about all GX's (lack of reductions to poison to DPS at a decent rate mixed with close range attack making them extremely vulnerable), and clear lack of AoE for multi-hitting skills compared to the most devastating AoE in game possessed by mechanics.

Maybe there should be a GX thread... but it seems ridiculous how biased these threads are considering people will argue for a class to be buffed first whereas others clearly need it more. It's exactly this reason why player input is so rarely useful.

Edited by Nombus, 14 June 2011 - 12:20 PM.

[Fibrizzo]

I never played a Mechanic. And I won't, because it's really a waste of time.

I mean, I love blacksmiths and whitesmiths, they have high DPS, ability to boost even more with Adrenaline Rush, Berserk Potions, and the High Speed Cart Ram. At least they have solo capabilites.

Then [Let's think] I spend the reset stone [Not VIP and Valk server~ /omg], and become a Mechanic. Great, I got a robot. And what should I do with it? Waste over 900000z just to explode it?

I mean, if I ever made a mechanic, I would just level the non-mado skills, and then the remaining points would go to BS/WS skills... Or maybe Mammonite.

So. Mechanics are as useful as... Wanderers. Or even less. Only one useful attack skill, one useful support skill, and everything else, medium-to-bad supports.

Mamonitte 10 is a must for HSCR.

Indeed, I'm suprised Sera sees the need to keep bringing this up. How many GX complaining threads have you seen in the community area? AFAIK none. They have it worse in everything than Mechanics, arguably even PvP considering the costs and high risk playstyle that are involved with just about all GX's (lack of reductions to poison to DPS at a decent rate mixed with close range attack making them extremely vulnerable), and clear lack of AoE for multi-hitting skills compared to the most devastating AoE in game possessed by mechanics.

Maybe there should be a GX thread... but it seems ridiculous how biased these threads are considering people will argue for a class to be buffed first whereas others clearly need it more. It's exactly this reason why player input is so rarely useful.

Excuse me? GX are awesome dps. And their poisons... do I have to explain you what they do?

Edited by Fibrizzo, 14 June 2011 - 12:37 PM.

[Krispin]

I want to play a battlesmith and I made one before renewal.
But with all the problems they seem to have in third job that I keep hearing about, it's just.... disheartening.

[cybernetic]

During the Kasa's turn in event I saw a gwing party and the main killer was a MADO mech. Quite crazy see how fast killed hugenormous mobs of Kasas in less than 1 second.

Mechanics are quite usefull and deal pretty good damage. People don't realize that and mech are considered "slow killers" when that's not truth with a good party setup.

you make me blush!

[Nombus]

@Fib
Excuse me? Maybe you should not quote my entire post and refer only to the point you are interested in. I said it is arguable that they are not as effective in WoE considering their DPS is focused completely on one character as well as their disables (any GX using Poison Cloud is asking to have their guild get ruined by a ShadowChaser). GX poisons are overrated because people are rarely organized enough to have an available GX to cure them (very cheaply), or a AB to clearance them. Frankly I prefer Masquerade Ignorance to Oblivion Curse, considering it there are less things that recover one from it. As for their single target DPS, I commonly outpot and break out of EDPed crits if they do not have a +9 KvM weapon.

Personally I'm more impressed by Mechanics in WoE currently than GX's. Their durability with neutral barrier has kept me, and themselves, alive as a sorcerer in what would normally be unlivable circumstances, they can easily beat EDP crit DPS with high speed cart Ram for much cheaper. And they've got access to the games' most devastating attack.

EDIT: I've been "inspired" by all the complaining over classes. A first complaint thread for GX's shall be made.

Edited by Nombus, 14 June 2011 - 04:05 PM.

[Cubical]

Nombus does have a point though Fibrizzo. GX has no useful AoE skill that lets them be threatening. Poison and poison mixing are OK, but Renewal is more about physical splash damage. You also must consider they use either katar or 2 daggers.

[cybernetic]

Honestly if Mech was able to get the 13.3 skill updates and make neutral barrier + stealth field 7x7, then the class would be perfect.

[Sera]

If we... ever actually got kRO updates...

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Why don't I make threads about GX? I don't have one and know absolutely nothing about it. If you are so filled with the desire to see your class corrected, then make a thread of your own, rather than berating me for not picking up your slack.

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You're kind of missing some of my points, it's not that they're difficult to level or are necessarily bad at solo grinding, but at the moment, they really contribute absolutely nothing to a party.

* DPS is completely inferior to burst damage at the moment in RO. It doesn't matter how good my DPS is against lower MVPs, I can't effectively comp a Sura that one-shots them. My party actually performs WORSE if I begin damaging monsters, because it eats up lex so easily.

* I have no problem with leveling one, it's mediocre really. It's not the best, but it's not the worst either.

* When I mean end-game PVM, I mean END-GAME PVM. You know, the stuff you generally do besides WoE when you don't really need to level anymore?

* Consider taking a Mechanic into Endless Tower, Shrine, WoE 2.0 runs, any other instances (and possibly future VIP dungeons if we ever get any). If you die and lose your mado in WoE or while you're leveling, it's just an annoyance, you can go get one and you won't miss much, but what do you do in an instanced dungeon? That sort of PVM progresses at a much quicker pace than WoE or leveling. You can miss a lot in five minutes of running back to town. Any other class dies, they just get res'd and pop a ygg.
Couple that with the fact that we're primarily wanted for mastersmith skills like Greed, HSCR, and Repair Weapon, in some MVP battles we may be forced by necessity to exit the mado earlier than death. The tank's shield gets broken, for instance, and needs repaired NOW. Well, you kind of have to do it, but then you're unable to do anything else for the rest of the battle.

* Even if Neutral Barrier's range is extended to 7x7, again, this is great for WoE, BUT THERE'S MORE TO THE GAME THAN WOE. The problem with it in PVM is that a lot of the battles where you would actually want to use Neutral Barrier, they tend to last longer than 1 minute, so for one minute, you're protecting the party, and then for the rest of the battle, you're standing by the portal trying not to lose your mado.

----------------

I guess you could say the role of the class is defined as being a WoE class, and that asking to be good in PVM is too much, but it just kind of feels... cheap to me that they would completely change the role of the class between updates, but not allow players to respec to a build suiting their playing style (like WoW, though there are no alternative Mechanic builds) or allow players of a certain level upon implementation of renewal to switch to the class that is more suitable for their playing style (Mechanic -> Genetic, like Requiem).

I mean, when I put my labor into making a mastersmith, WoE was pretty much the last thing on my mind because everyone knew they were awful at it, then renewal comes around and kRO decides that they're not going to develop the DPS-Buff aspect of the class, and completely switch it to something else, I mean, I just kind of wish they had also given us a chance to switch to something else too.