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#1 Hastur

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 02:33 PM

As many of you may have heard there are plans to rework the Professions system.

We want to hear from you, the players, the people who have activly used the professions system.

We want to know what you want to get out of the professions system? What ideas do you have to make it better?

Debate is welcome, however please be respect of each other's opinions and do NOT flame each other.

Everyone's opinion is valued, and though we may not respond to every single idea, we are collecting all data to send over to Gravity Games.
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#2 StormHaven

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:20 PM

Just gonna post it here toooo

the only complaint I have about professions is amping armors,accessories, and weapons. take that out and everything will be fine and dandy! just make carpentry make Myhome furniture(that don't give boosts!) or something.
Socketing isn't over powered or game breaking really it gives people without guardian sets a way to get closer to those stats.

Edited by StormHaven, 03 August 2011 - 03:22 PM.

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#3 Rimmy

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:26 PM

I'll list some of the biggest issues that come to mind (these are all just my own personal opinions):

1. The Professions system is, quite frankly, boring. The first two parts of the system -- Gathering and Processing -- essentially amount to watching a bar/gauge fill up over and over again. Worse yet, you can't chat while Gathering, and Processing forces you to babysit your machines, constantly going back and forth to your MyHome to take out processed materials and put new ones in. It feels like busy work, TBH, and never really feels fun at all. IMO, any major system in this game should be promoting fun, not AFKing.

2. The whole process, from Gathering to final Production, is too slow. This kind of goes hand-in-hand with the issue above. Basically, almost everything about Professions is too slow, including EXP gain and processing times for materials. You have to waste hours and hours every day with your character stuck standing in one spot Gathering, or you're stuck constantly visiting your MyHome waiting hours for a few handfuls of materials to Process, if you want to have a fair shot at making frequent use of the Production system. This problem might seem somewhat manageable until you consider that players are basically forced to have multiple characters with Professions in order to fully utilize the system.

3. The item requirements for creating certain items with the Production system are too steep. Ever since the nerf to Option Expansion, for instance, you need over 20 pieces of wood and a handful of machine parts just to make one small batch of expanders. If you want to make insurance, it's even more frustrating, because you need to use nothing but Grade 5-6 materials, which are randomly Produced and can take a while to collect.

4. The "Don't Be Greedy" debuff and exponential increase in cost for additional Profession skills make it impractical to fully enjoy the Professions system on just one character. This forces you to make multiple characters, level them all to 50+ (to fully utilize each Profession), and switch back and forth between them often in order to micromanage Processing machines. Even worse is Gathering, which can obviously only be done on whichever character you're controlling at the time -- unless you have multiple computers or you use a multi-client program (which I'm pretty sure WP frowns upon).

5. Socketing/Option Expansion have the potential to ruin the game's already questionable balance. By utilizing these systems, players can stack certain stats to ridiculous levels that will only widen the gap between new and old players, causing the current imbalance issues in PvP systems like BSQ and EW to become even worse. This ties into the fact that some players permanently cap some of their characters at low levels (30, 40, 50), which means they will have plenty of time to build up incredibly overpowered equips via Socketing/Option Expansion. Meanwhile, new players who simply want to progress normally through the leveling structure -- participating in PvP casually as they learn the ropes -- will quickly become discouraged if they enter PvP for the first few times and find themselves facing opponents with gear that makes them practically impossible to beat (and we already have enough problems getting new players to try and learn to enjoy PvP).

6. The Professions system is very complicated and can be intimidating, and even worse, the in-game descriptions do very little to help new players understand how it works and learn how to use it. It's great that the GMs/CMs here put together a guide on the forums, but new players won't understand all the jargon very easily -- and that's if they ever even visit the forums and notice it, in the first place. An in-game tutorial or better in-game descriptions and details would help alleviate this problem somewhat.
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#4 Rimmy

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:35 PM

Socketing isn't over powered or game breaking really it gives people without guardian sets a way to get closer to those stats.[/size][/color]


While not all Socketing possibilities are overpowered, you can theoretically get stat bonus totals like:

Max HP +90%
Aim Rate +55%
Evade Rate +65%

(Mind you, this is assuming maximum-level cards used in several different categories of equipment, but still. Also, these totals are based on info from other servers -- I don't know if we have Socketing cards with the same values here, but I think it's safe to assume they're probably identical.)

So personally, I feel some of the potential uses could contribute to game-breaking imbalance. You must also consider the fact that it's available to *everyone*, not just the people without Guardian equips.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, I quoted and forgot it put me in a new comment.

Edited by Rimmy, 03 August 2011 - 03:41 PM.

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#5 PhoReal

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:40 PM

Can socket cards break? @.@
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#6 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:50 PM

click skill, afk. That's all I'm seeing. Make it more intuitive

and what Storm said
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#7 StormHaven

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:54 PM

While not all Socketing possibilities are overpowered, you can theoretically get stat bonus totals like:

Max HP +90%
Aim Rate +55%
Evade Rate +65%

(Mind you, this is assuming maximum-level cards used in several different categories of equipment, but still. Also, these totals are based on info from other servers -- I don't know if we have Socketing cards with the same values here, but I think it's safe to assume they're probably identical.)

So personally, I feel some of the potential uses could contribute to game-breaking imbalance. You must also consider the fact that it's available to *everyone*, not just the people without Guardian equips.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, I quoted and forgot it put me in a new comment.

IIRC you can only do 1 socket on each piece of non IM equipment. so I don't see how +65% eva is possible unless you put it on all the equipment
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#8 Rimmy

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:57 PM

IIRC you can only do 1 socket on each piece of non IM equipment. so I don't see how +65% eva is possible unless you put it on all the equipment


You can get 15% each on your back, shield and belt, and 10% each on your top and bottom. Source.
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#9 StormHaven

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 04:05 PM

You can get 15% each on your back, shield and belt, and 10% each on your top and bottom. Source.


I'd rather deal with +65% eva than x3.0+65%
that being said people could stack 55% aim to counter the 65% eva

Edited by StormHaven, 03 August 2011 - 04:06 PM.

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#10 Yurai

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 04:08 PM

Agreed with Rim's post. The major problem with socketing and expansions is just the imbalances in gear between older players and newer players. We already have a steep curve in terms of player equipment, and the production system further steepened the curve. In addition, people who amplify guardian IM items now have significantly better stats than people who have the special IM costumes from the mixboard. Before, the difference was noticeable for high agi classes, but the difference definitely wasn't this huge. Also, the few people who have level 20 IM weapons are at an even bigger advantage since the stats possibly obtained is 28 compared to only 8 on a normal IM weapon, on top of possibly having 5 aim rate and 10 agi as a default option.

If we want to see more people actively participating in PvP events, the difference between players with lots of funds and those without so much should not be this steep. We should be working towards closing the gap rather than further widening it. I've been saying this for a while, but the production system is still immature and we were definitely not ready to receive it. My suggestion is to work on fixing the game balance first, which was discussed in-depth and concerning many different aspects of the game, before trying to introduce anything new. If we don't have balance to begin with, how can we expect a new, non-thoroughly tested system to just work itself out somehow?
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#11 Himeyasha

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 04:09 PM

you can talk while gathering as far as I know.

Simplify the system. There's just too much going on with Professions. When I saw the millions of manuals I was like wtfux is this :). Better would be simply abolishing the higher manuals for each gathering and just have a simple learn profession and level it method. Either that or separate the manuals more instead of a giant list of stuff.

I don't really mind the time because I think of it as a time waster for people who have reached maximum potential and want to get a little more. Making it faster faster faster just doesn't make sense to me. Processing is the only section which I wish was more idle mode or less idle mode. it's really annoying with the 5-12 minutes for level 1-2 stuff

The options should be limited more so that it's not a game breaker to have professions but rather something a lil extra.

One thing that has made me want to not play this game lately is seeing stuff that I can never obtain (Heirloom) which makes it impossible to compete against certain players. Seeing it become even worse than what it is currently makes me unhappy.

Edited by Himeyasha, 03 August 2011 - 04:18 PM.

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#12 Rimmy

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 04:28 PM

you can talk while gathering as far as I know.


Yes, but usually not for long without interrupting your Gathering constantly. The problem arises whenever you say something that forces your character into an emote, which cancels your Gathering.
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#13 igozuvi

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:08 PM

I like that professions is a different way to make gold, but I don't like that it's too level-restricted. Also, the skills should be connected by their branch so that the Don't Be Greedy effect won't apply to professions that are related (Logging > Woodworks, etc).

I think it's pretty universal that the system affects the balance of the game negatively, but as far as fixing this without removing it from the game completely, I don't know. The issue may just be that professions allows players to reach certain stat values that just weren't expected to be reached before; capping certain stats might be a solution, since most people seem to be concerned with over-stacking selected stats as opposed to stats in general.

It'd be sad to see professions go because I honestly think it has a lot of potential. Maybe the game just isn't built for it, I dunno. I think if anything the system just spotlights everything that is wrong with the stat system itself. It's far too biased towards a singular stat and the game doesn't really have much of a system that counters it. Professions itself isn't really the problem.
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#14 Thuy

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:14 PM

increase the price of things that you buy from the npc
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#15 Biskit

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:17 PM

I say berid of the Professions System completely. It's incredibly boring and I see no need for it.
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#16 StormHaven

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:24 PM

I like that professions is a different way to make gold, but I don't like that it's too level-restricted. Also, the skills should be connected by their branch so that the Don't Be Greedy effect won't apply to professions that are related (Logging > Woodworks, etc).

I think it's pretty universal that the system affects the balance of the game negatively, but as far as fixing this without removing it from the game completely, I don't know. The issue may just be that professions allows players to reach certain stat values that just weren't expected to be reached before; capping certain stats might be a solution, since most people seem to be concerned with over-stacking selected stats as opposed to stats in general.

It'd be sad to see professions go because I honestly think it has a lot of potential. Maybe the game just isn't built for it, I dunno. I think if anything the system just spotlights everything that is wrong with the stat system itself. It's far too biased towards a singular stat and the game doesn't really have much of a system that counters it. Professions itself isn't really the problem.


capping certain stats is not a solution any stat at 1XXX is completely imba even str.
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#17 Maronu

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:33 PM

1) The gathering system is too tediousness and it takes away from gameplay. I agree with Rim quite a bit about the system being boring. You go to an area and afk for long periods of time without being able to chat without interrupting your progress. Make it more of an active minigame type of activity where you find gathering spots all over the world because it would be more fun if you could increase your skill in your professions as you are leveling up and exploring. The gathering spots could spawn completely randomly throughout the world or even also be placed in dungeons so there wouldn't be as much of an issue of people camping them. The amount of time it takes to gather should also be significantly reduced, and once you have gathered from the spot a couple of times the resources should be exhausted, so you don't end up just standing in one spot for a long period of time. The production tool shouldn't break and should just be something you keep in your inventory that allows you to gather as long as you have it, so you don't have to unequip your weapon while you are playing.

2) Amplification is going to make people unkillable even if everything is at x2 max. You could remove amplification as storm said, or you could adjust it. I think it might be better to keep it and change how the system actually works. Everything should not be able to be amplified the same amount. Right now, even if you have a perfect weapon, it is almost impossible to kill another player who has their gear enchanted and soulcrafted to a high level. I would like to see this system help with that problem and change Dragon Saga into a more offensive oriented pvp game. To serve that purpose all stats should not increase at the same rate when amplified, and some should possibly not even be able to be amplified. Here are some of my thoughts on how this could work:

aim and evade - aim must be able to be amped at a higher rate or more than evade if these stats are ampable. We can get evade on more equips and there is already a problem with players able to stack too much evade
agi - This must be changed to give the same amount of evade and agi per point if you allow it to be amped. Currently each point of agi gives slightly more evade.
crit rate - This stat multiplies with the base rather than adding directly too it. It becomes useful when base cr is very high due to high agi. Allow players to amp this. Possibly slightly higher depending on agi limit.
crit damage - Should be able to be amped. Possibly slightly higher than some of the other stats to help with killing, but make sure to test it.
hlt - Being able to amp this makes players too hard to kill and with heals it is nearly impossible. Shouldn't be able to be amped as high as the other stats if able to be amped at all.
Physical/Magical Defense Drop - This stat reduces damage by a %. Don't allow players to amp because you don't want players getting over 100% and taking 1 damage.
Movespeed - This stat is fun. Allow players to amplify to x2.
Attack - I actually think players base attack stats on their weapon should go up by some amount when they amplify their weapon. We need higher attack to be able to kill some players.
All other stats - If I didn't mention it, x2 should be fine.

That's general guidelines, but I'll expect for Barunson to test to see how high different stats should be able to be amplified by using characters with perfect equips to figure out the actual values that are fair for each stat.

Recommend Nerf - Being able to amp cash is pretty game breaking due to the ridiculous stats on guardian sets. I would recommend making these unable to be amplified or preferably get rid of them altogether. The fairest way to remove the guardian sets imo would be to have them unequiped and individually replaced with unsoulbound angel and devil sets (because they have wings) of equivalent sc grade and enchant level.

3) Processing machines keep breaking and clutter my max size home! Seriously, processing is a major pain, and I have no clue why a machine breaks almost every time I start them up. There should be an npc who has a facility where these machines are located. They should not go in my home, or if they do, you should only get one that can process as many materials at a time as you want. Let players put a whole stack of gathered mats in the machine if they want. Having to place more stuff in the machine every 5 minutes to 1 hour and having to stand around for a few minutes to repair the machines from breaking every time you put something in is ridiculous and takes away from actual game play. This system should not just be for endgame players. It should be for everyone! Let the machines take like a minute or instantly make stuff regardless of level, and have players get more points for processing if they produce a lot of items at a time or use high grade materials. If you want for us to actively participate in the processing sometimes let us choose to play optional mini games to aid the processing a little, and have records for the minigames or be able to earn special prizes. We could have to do things like drop food in the fish tank so that it lands on the fish and gets eaten, or we have to run around repairing machines before the time is up, or pull levers and guess the right one as many times in a row as we can, or have some sort of gauge on the machines that we have to stop at the right time, or let us have some sort of game where we have to actually use the machine and produce as many as we can without messing up, or we race the fish and train them to help them get stronger. These are just ideas I'm thinking of off the top of my head so they may not be the best, but if Barunson wants to encourage us to stand around the processing machine I expect something a little bit more interesting than "processing machine broke" ...guess I'll click repair....

4) Allow me to produce more things. What we can currently make is boring. I would love to be able to cook up some healing items or pet food or use machinery to make myself a rocket backpack looking item that boosts movespeed by a tiny amount or skates or maybe even something that gives me a cool active skill like you get when you equip full Ryvius set. Let the people who have alchemy make cheap healing potions or potions that are better than the ones from the shop (heals half your health, but has a chance of making some random effect occur), and let alchemists make the potion that turns you into Sangka from that one f5 quest or the farrel monster. Let them make alchemist fire that we can throw on the ground or put on weapons for some extra damage or just a cool temporary effect. How about making restful coffins using carpentry or making ridiculous or humorous my home items (totem pole) like storm said. How about letting us use the profession system to make fireworks. Let us make a robot pet using machinery. Let us make...whatever you can think of! Just make the system actually creative and something that is fun for players for reasons other than stat increasing. Not everyone cares that much about stats, and they are pointless for the most part if you don't pvp, and I would like for this system to appeal to everyone. I want there to be a variety of interesting things to do and produce and for the system to be fun if we are going to have it at all.

5) Enchant and soulcraft transfer should allow us to transfer stats down to lower level equips. But make the soulcraft stats automatically adjust to be appropriate for the level of the item. I thought one of the major purposes of this system was to be able to preserve the soulcraft level on gear and aid making alts.

Edited by Maronu, 03 August 2011 - 06:44 PM.

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#18 EnderW

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 06:41 PM

Skill exp gain is too low.

When gathering from 400+ exp the rate drops to 2 points per hour of farming not so bad but with production at 200 exp most things you can make drop to 1 point at 300 they drop to below 1 point per item creation
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#19 Meganekko

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:25 PM

I like that professions is a different way to make gold, but I don't like that it's too level-restricted.

Level restriction is GOOD or else chinese gold sellers can afk w/ lvl1s and farm gold to sell.


My problem is not with amping persay but amping CASH gear. Cash gear should not be ampable and not be soul transferable, that's the two BIGGEST things i've seen that have made this entirely over powered. Amping regular gear is fine, cause you're just amping the same thing ANY person can amp, but when it's cash, especially since we have people with lvl20 weapons and level20 guardian sets its way to overpowered. That and fix the no talk while gathering (which isnt only emotes, you can talk without any emotions for 3 sentences and then it stops forcing you to basically afk :)). I liked the idea of gardening and fishing and chopping wood, reminds me of certain games ive always loved as a kid, certain crossings and moons (if you know what I mean +1) but the fact you have to sit and afk it's so BORING.
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#20 FuriousSam

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:31 PM

Instead of nerfing everything, has anyone ever consider a separate system for PvP as opposed to one system for all? It allows for crazy stacking of stats in PvE and a more controlled/balanced play for PvP. The last game I play, Guild Wars has such a system for their skills and it was very enjoyable.

Just a suggestion.
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#21 StormHaven

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:37 PM

Instead of nerfing everything, has anyone ever consider a separate system for PvP as opposed to one system for all? It allows for crazy stacking of stats in PvE and a more controlled/balanced play for PvP. The last game I play, Guild Wars has such a system for their skills and it was very enjoyable.

Just a suggestion.


The thing about guild wars is that you create all knew char at max lvl that has non of the upgrades or runes or insigna's most people who have play pve have and the split only comes from the skills themselves. Splitting skills in this game would be a disaster.
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#22 FuriousSam

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:41 PM

The thing about guild wars is that you create all knew char at max lvl that has non of the upgrades or runes or insigna's most people who have play pve have and the split only comes from the skills themselves. Splitting skills in this game would be a disaster.


You can use your balt points to buy runes in GW even if you only PvP. And I used skills as an example because that was the thing they limited and in our case, we can limit the profession options (instead of 2.0, maybe do 1.25 at max level).

Ideas are limitless.

EDIT: Is part of the debate with new players vs old player like level 10 vs level 75? Because that's like debating why my Honda Civic lost a race with a Lambo...

Edited by FuriousSam, 03 August 2011 - 08:45 PM.

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#23 StormHaven

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:45 PM

You can use your balt points to buy runes in GW even if you only PvP. And I used skills as an example because that was the thing they limited and in our case, we can limit the profession options (instead of 2.0, maybe do 1.25 at max level).

Ideas are limitless.

you can also just pay $20 and unlock everything. point is GW's set up is much different than DS's
also GW is pvp oriented. this game is not.

Edited by StormHaven, 03 August 2011 - 08:46 PM.

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#24 megamanxpert

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:29 AM

First off: I am a farmer. I admit it freely. I do it for myself (I have issues? agreed).

Now on to the main stuff. I like the professions system cause it allows an easier alt to enchant and soul craft. Also, its an easier way to earn money. True it tedious and time-consuming but its because of exactly this point that not many people will bother with more than one branch. The professions will turn into exactly what they are called: professions.

I agree with igozuvi, debuff should not affect the same branch of profession. Everybody else who is pointing out the imbalance should realize that most of the people who have the awesome stuff (heirloom, +20 IM items, legendary, etc) did put their time and money/effort into it. It only makes sense that those who started playing earlier get more perks. Btw, I only started playing 4 months ago.

P.S. I am one of those crazy guys who is aiming for all professions. Which means I will invest time and money/effort into it. I have most of my 11 prof skills to lvl 200 already and mining is almost 300.

Edited by megamanxpert, 04 August 2011 - 12:37 AM.

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#25 mimiwin

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:14 AM

its time to release guardian! let new player obtain it.

gathering interaction-minigame r mini mission map (so ppl dont abuse multi cilent and afk. i want to chat! i want to play!)
dragon saga is a rpg action.. casting skill and afk sound more like a click action rpg..
*lucky spot should'nt fail..

process- some kinda item to make the machine break less.OR aid should be able to cancel it.
random that is worth more if you just simply NPC it for gold...item now are worthless even to NPC.
golden woods,fishs ect.

soul transfer-no working down level. both item zhould be same or within 10 level(ex10-19,20-29). soul transfer sould be an option for ppl that dont want to play with julie luck and randomizer chance. A fix if u work hard. not game break.

option expander- not needed. If your gear are op, your gear are op, this only make it worst...

socket card to me is like monster card but boost to armor,weapon,ect.
customizing your amor is fun. you can get aim to hit the evade.

Allow us to produce more things..

work on pvp-simply no point in stacking if pvp is dying.. u dont really need production stuff to kill lavalon or paris...

port of wind farm should be a fun place.


edit-production item shouldnt work on item mall clothing, leave that for julie and smith to handle.

Edited by mimiwin, 04 August 2011 - 01:30 AM.

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