83 replies to this topic

[Yurai]

An another alternative would be to keep the %, but cap it at same max number.

[Maronu]

Have you guys been playing with pots on and just using mp pots when summoners are present? I haven't pvped with summoners, but I could imagine simply using mp pots as another additional option instead of changing skills and perhaps including mp pots that are higher lvl than 40 in this game, lols. Level 80 pots please. If there was an issue with people being unfair by using hp pots as well, just adding an mp pot only pvp mode to keep players from being completely disabled when they run out of mana might solve the problem. IFRC, running out of mana was a problem even before this class was introduced, so introducing an mp pot only mode might be a good thing regardless.

Perhaps if MP burn was nerfed in multiple ways, it might be possible to add the ability to MP kill players in this game like in star ocean. Or perhaps it would be possible to change the skill into more of a damage aura (obviously not with the current %) so that it would have some use in pve as well. Only suggesting things like that if summoners other skills wouldn't receive a buff to go along with a nerf to MP burn.

[Yurai]

Have you guys been playing with pots on and just using mp pots when summoners are present? I haven't pvped with summoners, but I could imagine simply using mp pots as another additional option instead of changing skills and perhaps including mp pots that are higher lvl than 40 in this game, lols. Level 80 pots please. If there was an issue with people being unfair by using hp pots as well, just adding an mp pot only pvp mode to keep players from being completely disabled when they run out of mana might solve the problem. IFRC, running out of mana was a problem even before this class was introduced, so introducing an mp pot only mode might be a good thing regardless.

Perhaps if MP burn was nerfed in multiple ways, it might be possible to add the ability to MP kill players in this game like in star ocean. Or perhaps it would be possible to change the skill into more of a damage aura (obviously not with the current %) so that it would have some use in pve as well. Only suggesting things like that if summoners other skills wouldn't receive a buff to go along with a nerf to MP burn.

It's not really fun if you have to spam yogurts to do anything.

[Rimmy]

What Yurai said. Regular MP pots don't do squat when you're getting burned for 10% every second. I do agree with Maronu that higher-level MP pots would help a bit, but not sure if that would be enough to counter the burn. IMO, if you're balancing burn by making it so players can regen MP fast enough to counter it, though, then what's the point of having the burn in the first place?

I said this somewhere once before, but I think the range on the burn AoE needs to be nerfed to about half its current size. It's nearly impossible for any class to effectively fight a summoner b/c almost no attacks in the game have the range to hit while keeping the user out of the burn's AoE. At least if ranged attacks were effective, there would be some kind of strategy to help counter this skill.

[Maronu]

What Yurai said. Regular MP pots don't do squat when you're getting burned for 10% every second. I do agree with Maronu that higher-level MP pots would help a bit, but not sure if that would be enough to counter the burn. IMO, if you're balancing burn by making it so players can regen MP fast enough to counter it, though, then what's the point of having the burn in the first place?

I said this somewhere once before, but I think the range on the burn AoE needs to be nerfed to about half its current size. It's nearly impossible for any class to effectively fight a summoner b/c almost no attacks in the game have the range to hit while keeping the user out of the burn's AoE. At least if ranged attacks were effective, there would be some kind of strategy to help counter this skill.

It sounds pretty fun to have a small range on burn, so that the summoners job is to manage to get in on opponents and stick with them, but if the range is significantly reduced, I would like for the skill to hit players who are in the air when the summoner is in the air (and probably not hit ground when the summoner is in the air). You should be able to beat the class with a brick wall of ranged attacks and proper spacing, but I do not think simply jumping around should be an effective counter.

[JustinLe]

what if mana burn doesnt drain mana at a % per second, but instead makes mana costs for all skills done by the other player in the range of the summoner to be tripled? This way, mana burn still retains its concept of technically draining mana and at the same time not be as op

[tainguyen]

what if mana burn doesnt drain mana at a % per second, but instead makes mana costs for all skills done by the other player in the range of the summoner to be tripled? This way, mana burn still retains its concept of technically draining mana and at the same time not be as op

Brillant. I'm chuck norris and I apporve this idea. (That would be cool if shamans recived a passive to reduce cast time to a max of 0.3-5 secs, resulting more shamans to not rely on this skill)

Edited by tainguyen, 29 November 2011 - 01:30 AM.

[Maronu]

What Yurai said. Regular MP pots don't do squat when you're getting burned for 10% every second. I do agree with Maronu that higher-level MP pots would help a bit, but not sure if that would be enough to counter the burn. IMO, if you're balancing burn by making it so players can regen MP fast enough to counter it, though, then what's the point of having the burn in the first place?

I said this somewhere once before, but I think the range on the burn AoE needs to be nerfed to about half its current size. It's nearly impossible for any class to effectively fight a summoner b/c almost no attacks in the game have the range to hit while keeping the user out of the burn's AoE. At least if ranged attacks were effective, there would be some kind of strategy to help counter this skill.

I'd like to point out. It is my understanding that mana burn only works when the summoner is on the ground. If this is incorrect, let me know, but you should be able to juggle a summoner to avoid burn. Also, this skill last 23 seconds (needs to be recast quite often) at level 5 and has a 30 second cooldown. There is a 7 second window where summoners cannot cast burn and the skill has a 1.3 second cast time. You have that period to do whatever you want to the summoner. Keep track of the time. Take advantage of it. Lock them during that period. Swift or any other quick skill easily interrupts that 1.3 second cast.


There are items in this game, such as soul capsules that restore half a characters mp instantly! Maybe players should take advantage of them, and if they aren't obtained easily enough, perhaps there should be more ways to obtain them. Currently, summoners have zero catch skills except for some attacks that the summons do randomly that are unreliable, and summoners have to count on teammates to catch or distract players in order to do damage or get skills off. If you want to group pvp with items off, and you think the skill is unfair in that scenario, just ask the summoner not to use burn. I don't think it is much different than asking a ninja not to shadow walk or restricting 4th job skills.
Anyway, imo, burn is really the best thing summoners have going for them, and if you nerf it, without giving summoners sufficient buffs in other area's it will really make the class useless. The fact that it takes too long to kill players in general is more of a problem then the skill itself. It should be made possible to kill stacked players within 10 seconds after locking.

Edited by Maronu, 03 January 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[Rimmy]

Ever since they added the infinite aerial recovery, juggling anyone in the air for more than a few seconds is almost impossible (unless you're a pally). Unless the summoner has absolutely no idea how to AR effectively, I can't see that being a very useful counter to burn.

Also, I don't think anyone's really capable of tracking the cooldown on each summoner's burn while in the chaos of a team match or, say, BSQ/EW. It would be difficult enough if there were only one summoner around, but imagine how it'll be once you get 4-5+ summoners showing up regularly to these kinds of things -- try tracking the burn of each of them while you're simultaneously worrying about who has flags, where traps are located, where your other enemies are at (and what they're doing), etc. There's no way you're going to be able to effectively counter them all, no matter how strategic you get. Mana burn is just OP right now, that's all there is to it, IMO.

Sure, there are items that can restore vast amounts of MP, but why should I (and everyone else) need a stockpile of a very unique (and typically rare) item just to deal with a single skill from a single class? Not to mention, considering it only takes 5 seconds for a summoner to burn off 50% of your MP, you better have stacks and stacks of those things handy if you plan on PvPing with them regularly. Sounds like an awful lot of farming to counter just one skill -- completely needless.

There's a huge difference between Mana Burn and a skill like Shadow Walk (when the current bug for SW isn't being abused). Shadow Walk is a skill that requires some strategy and skill to use effectively, otherwise you might as well have never bothered using it at all. Mana Burn isn't one of those skills that requires you to set up some special circumstances or something -- you just turn it on and for 23 seconds, no one wants to be anywhere near you and if they make the mistake of doing so, they're probably going to pay dearly for it. You literally just walk/dash/jump around and dominate people without ever lifting a finger. It's not about gear, it's not about skill/talent, it's not about effectively combining skills -- it's just the simple action of walking around or (in some cases even) standing still.

As for your statement about killing stacked players within 10 seconds... If we're going to make everyone adjust to that same scale (which, let's face it, will have to be the way it's done or no one will bother stacking), then people who aren't stacked are going to die in far less time than that -- more than likely, they'll all just get one-shotted by just about everything. I can't see that being very fun.

There seems to be this widespread misconception that Mana Burn is the only way that summoners can be useful in PvP. Endbringer has a summoner and I've played him enough times to know that simply isn't the case (he doesn't use Mana Burn at all, btw). TBH, there are other skills summoners have that are just as scary as (or perhaps even moreso than) Mana Burn. It's just that Mana Burn is an easy-mode skill that can shut absolutely anyone down in a matter of seconds and personally, I just see it as an excuse to not use skills that actually require some thought or strategy or skill -- anyone can turn on Mana Burn and go run around chasing people or stand next to someone who is locked. To put it bluntly, the skill is nothing more than a crutch. The people who want to argue that Mana Burn is all summoners have going for them need to take another look at the class, IMO, b/c they're missing an awful lot. Summoners are a support class and they are perfectly suited to that role, but for some reason most players in PvP want nothing less than to feel like a one-man army (which probably explains the plethora of paladins/dragoons out there).

IMO, summoners should be focusing less on abusing Mana Burn and focusing more on how to maximize the potential of their other skills. But they're all so quick to toss those other skills aside and argue that without burn, the class is "useless," that they'll never realize the full potential of the class. Take it from someone who plays a class that was forced to give up its most useful skills (heals) a long time ago -- there's more than one way to play any class, and every class has multiple skills that can be devastating if used correctly.

The one thing I might be able to agree with you on is that summoners could use a better catching skill. They have one skill in particular that, IMO, could be used as a decent catching skill with the right timing, but it's not terribly practical so I wouldn't mind if they got something that was a little more useful for stunning/freezing an opponent (if, of course, Mana Burn got the nerf it deserves).

Edited by Rimmy, 04 January 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[StormHaven]

I always wondered.. do Mana burns stack on a target?

[JoeyLe]

I always wondered.. do Mana burns stack on a target?

Does it matter?! mp vanishes magically anyway

[StormHaven]

Does it matter?! mp vanishes magically anyway

Because <5 seconds is a lot shorter than 10 seconds in this game.

[Maronu]

Ever since they added the infinite aerial recovery, juggling anyone in the air for more than a few seconds is almost impossible (unless you're a pally). Unless the summoner has absolutely no idea how to AR effectively, I can't see that being a very useful counter to burn.

AAS? #6

[StormHaven]

AAS? #6

looks good on paper but put into practice a terrible idea. AASing for long enough to make a difference leaves you wide open.

[Rimmy]

AAS? #6

Even if that were a practical solution, that leaves you with 3 out of 10 classes that have a reasonable counter to it. Not to mention that AAS is a boring, easy-mode skill, too.

[Maronu]

Ever since they added the infinite aerial recovery, juggling anyone in the air for more than a few seconds is almost impossible (unless you're a pally). Unless the summoner has absolutely no idea how to AR effectively, I can't see that being a very useful counter to burn.

The first thing you bring up is infinite aerial recovery? We'll wasn't that something we also said should be changed?

...and AAS? #6 Really, pally is the only class who can keep someone in the air?

I don't feel there is very much strategy or skill involved in this game at all, and have no idea what you find difficult or strategic about SW. Do the ninjas you play with normally use that in small group? Do they sleep? lols Anyway, I said asking a summoner not to use burn isn't different then asking someone else not to use a certain skill that you don't want in the match. I did not compare the skills and said "with items off". Please read more carefully. Items off means practice pvp. Not bsq. I would assume you would not do practice pvp against a team of four summoners because it would probably just be a stupid match.

As for your comment about soul capsules, I was merely throwing that out there, but if you want to talk about bsq and why people might use them in that scenario, the answer is to win, obviously. I find the people who spam cakes and use items like penryl's horns hilarious, but people do it. Takes like 100g worth of cake or more to get hp all the way back up...why not use soul capsules as well? Isn't really much to use gold for once your really stacked. Also, I like how you ignored my suggestion of making soul capsules easier to obtain. #9 For now, I just feel like burning mp is the perfect counter to healers (including paladins), cake spammers, and people with way too much defense. Mana burn may be a crutch, but so is gear and heals. People go to ew and bsq with as many crutches as they can get. It isn't a skill scenario. Everyone does whatever they can to win. That's why I say we need general changes in how long it takes to kill people.

As for your problem with what I said about people needing to die faster, it would be better to have a completely new attack defense system for pvp, such as giving a certain % extra damage for each weapon enchant level and certain % reduction to that extra damage for each average armor level. I have played other games that do that, and it seems to work much better than our system, but that's kind of off topic.

In group pvp (practice), I think a single summoner is something that the server can probably learn to deal with either through simply disallowing the skill, mp items allowed, or using good strategy if the match is naked and knowing how the skill works. Our large scale pvp (ew and bsq) is incredibly laughable, but the summoner should be improved somewhat with the other skills if your trying to balance that and want to nerf mana burn because everything comes out pretty slow and you have to count on teammates or hope people will run into skills to land anything without getting interrupted. Maybe not useless, but to me it really seems pretty gimped (without mp burn) in EW/bsq compared to the other mage type classes who can heal in bsq (summoners blesser is laughable) and have instant cast times on a decent amount of attacks. Our rolling rock has a cast time is slow and doesn't seem reliable if that's what you were referring to about a catch, and it also has a lot of ending lag where you can't move....

It's punishable unless you cast far away, and easily avoidable if you do.

I haven't tried out everything because I don't have enough hunter capsules, but just my impression of class so far. #9

Edited by Maronu, 04 January 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Rimmy]

Sure, we said it should be changed, but that doesn't mean it will be. I'm not talking about "what if AR was nerfed and Mana Burn wasn't." I'm just looking at the situation as it is now and explaining why it needs a nerf.

I think it's pretty obvious that AAS can keep someone in the air, but I'd hardly call that "juggling." You're holding down a single button. It's basically a very, very weak HP Burn.

If you don't feel there's much skill involved in this game, that more or less tells me all I need to know. You mean to tell me you've never noticed a significant difference in how well one person or the other handles a certain class, or certain skills? If there's so little skill involved, then why do you care about PvP in the first place?

When I mentioned Shadow Walk, I was talking about practice PvP. And yes, it can be used strategically, in more ways than just the same old "SW-sleep" combo. It's not like heading directly into offense is the only meaningful reason to SW. A ninja could just as easily decide to SW in order to avoid notice and shake someone off of his/her tail, to find a safe place to buff, to be on standby in case a teammate needs to be saved, etc.

That's the whole problem: There are too many players who see a skill used a certain way or see a class played a certain way and they assume that's all there is to it. You want an example of strategy, just take into account the fact that some players take the time to learn how to use their skills in creative ways rather than just to pile up as much damage on an opponent as possible, as fast as possible. Too many players are interested only in damage output or the locking capabilities of a skill, and they never even stop to consider that it could be used in some completely different manner.

Which goes back to summoner skills. They have multiple skills besides Mana Burn that can be devastating in PvP, as mentioned earlier -- such as the quake skill, which prohibits targets from dashing or jumping for a certain period of time (I believe it's about 10-11 seconds). The skill's damage might not be impressive, and it may not be a good catching skill, but if you land that on someone who is, say, a high-priority target (like a flag-carrier in BSQ), then you've just made your team's job much easier, especially if you combine it with the summoner MSPD-debuff aura.

I understood what you meant about asking someone not to use Mana Burn, but I was trying to explain why I feel that asking that is not the same as asking someone not to use SW. SW is useful, but it's not nearly as game-breaking as Mana Burn, IMO, so there's a difference in excluding one or the other. Now if you were to compare it to, say, banning heals, I could see that comparison making sense.

I simply felt your comment about making capsules easier to obtain just didn't seem like a practical solution, given that making any item that restores 50% of your MP that easy to obtain seems highly unlikely. Heck, the developers won't even give us MP pots above level 40 and we're already capping out at 80 -- and there's also the fact that it would cut into sales of Eternity Pots.

I can agree that gear and heals can definitely act as crutches in PvP (especially BSQ/EW), but when it comes to gear, that's a crutch anyone of any class or skill level can access if they're willing to work/pay for it. Mana Burn is a different type of crutch entirely, because it's so simple to obtain and use, and it's limited to just one class. Heals, on the other hand, are more like Mana Burn, but honestly I've yet to meet anyone in EW/BSQ who could out-heal the damage from a well-coordinated attack by players who know how to work as a team.

As for the bit about attack/defense, I'm not saying I disagree with the suggestion that they need adjustments. I just think that your statement about the "10 seconds" thing was a little extreme and it probably wouldn't work out too well, especially for the non-stacked players.

As for catches, I was referring to the "Curse Trap" skill (don't recall what it's called here as I'm referencing a Japanese site at the moment, but it's the one that has a .9-second cast time and prevents enemy movement for 2 seconds). I've seen a few summoners use it to trap people just as they land from a jump or as they dash toward the summoner, although admittedly it looks like it's a risky maneuver and it would take some practice to be able to use it as an effective catch, which is why I said it's probably not a very practical choice.

Edited by Rimmy, 04 January 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[Maronu]

In geared pvp, gear is much > then skill. Class > skill too. That's all I'm saying. Seems we both keep pointing out obvious things trying to make unnecessary points.

SW has a longer cast time then the buffs that ninjas have, so finding a safe spot to buff sounds a bit strange. I'll ignore the rest about ninja's since that's my main class, I am well aware of what can be done with that skill, and not what this is about anyway. It is a bit hard for players to be creative and utilize all skills with summoner atm because they have so many skills, but hunter capsules will eventually help with that...if I can manage to get them. Some of the skills that I haven't gotten to play with do sound promising, but most of the cast times seem kind of bleh. I'd probably sacrifice some of the effects if it meant no cast time, but just my preference.

And you can go ahead and compare burn to heals or whatever you feel is appropriate. The point was never that burn = SW. As for the summoner class, I enjoy being able to disable people quickly in this game (talking about ew and bsq), something that I haven't been able to do in geared pvp for a long time. Burn is wonderful for that purpose. Before it was like, someone has a ton of evade and you miss and they go heal, or someone attacks you from behind while your trying to keep the healer locked, and healer heals...just way too hard to disable/kill people. Maybe it should take a bit longer to drain the mp, but I like that the summoner can disable players fast with burn, and there are some flaws in the skill that can be taken advantage of if players are coordinated and use good strategy like you keep talking about. Those are things that need to be considered before any nerf is made.

Like I said, I'd love to see kill speed closer to burn speed. And it doesn't have to be 10 seconds, but If summoner couldn't disable quickly, probably wouldn't have made one. I don't enjoy having to gang bang healers and hope that they don't lag warp out of the lock or some idiot doesn't accidentally launch, someone doesn't interrupt as I already mentioned, etc; and hate having to really heavily upon teammates to take players out, so being able to burn is the perfect solution to slow killing for me atm.

I want for the game to be more fast paced, and 10 seconds should not be this minuscule amount of time when your looking at how long players survive. That's the main problem, imo. It isn't just that burn is too effective. Other attacks aren't effective enough. I hope you can see where I"m coming from.

Edited by Maronu, 05 January 2012 - 02:10 AM.

[Kazu731]

At first, Maronu, I was vehemently outraged at your 10 seconds statement. However, with this latest post, I think I understood what angle you were coming from and I don't think it's a very bad thought at all. As far as PvP goes, the arcade-style is really fun and I do think that a fast-paced sort would maybe play on it a bit more, but I think it bears recognition that this is indeed not how PvP operates, even if one proposal would ideally want it this way. I do think that it can be a bit irksome to have to spend four hours trying to chip away at someone's health with a gigantic amount of Health--and this also brings in the new situation where, without massive amounts of CD, you can barely hope to take away a substantial chunk at all. Even still, some classes get access to massive amounts of CD with ease--ahemdragoons--while others have to scrounge for it. Still, I do think there's merit in the current system and I do agree with Rim, and a good solid match based on skill--to interject again, I do agree that sadly it seems gear and class do seem to overshadow skill level, but the players with skill are definitely out there--really is more of a thrill than a quick brawl-type battle system would ever be. I also do think a downfall of a quicker-paced PvP, if stats and gear remained as they are, would be that it would only cater to those "without skill;" for example, if you don't ever get hit because you have four million evade, then it doesn't matter how fast-paced the action is. But this is all a digression, I just really wanted to speak to it.

I also thought you were SOWRONGIHATEYOUMARONU about Mana Burn at first, but again you did make me understand where you're coming from and again I can say I agree somewhat. Sidebar here: It seems like this most recent post right above me was really rational and made a lot of sense to me, but your post before that was so angry and I didn't quite get it. Were you in a bad mood when you wrote it!? I think you should play to your strengths, because you are good at making a point, but you don't need me to confirm that.

Having Mana Burn as a disabler skill among thousands of out-of-league players is indeed a very great asset, and it does bring some power to the players that don't have access to full Legendary gear that's all +20'd and whatnot. Even still, you can get those damn Evade stackers with it! I think the disagreement between Maronu and Rim here is that they are speaking from two completely separate worlds. I feel like Maronu is speaking about creating a dynamic balance between the "privileged" and "unprivileged" which I do think is an issue. However, Rim is speaking in terms of--I thought--a scenario among players with some equal degree of skill and equipment, where a Summoner is capable of doing much more harm than simply disabling--much more resembling complete dismissal of an enemy player with little effort more than simply running around them. A decent degree of Health and Defense and Movespeed, and this Summoner is no different than someone who relies on one tactic to win the battle for his team every time, rather than actually attempting to play the game that's there. Am I wrong in reading what you two have said?

My personal opinion is that it is indeed a bit too strong, but I also want to say that I really think that I like the idea of a Summoner being the type that can hold you down and strip away a lot of things with cool BDSM tactics. I never felt that buffs or debuffs were ever a prominent subject in this game and I find that the Summoner ones, with skills as Rim mentioned, such as Earthquake and the Shackle skill, along with even Mana Burn to a degree, are pretty cool. I'd ask for a nerf or a sort of reworking of the skill, rather than just abolishing it and buffing other skills/cast-times.

Edited by Kazu731, 05 January 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[Rimmy]

Honestly, it just comes down to the fact that I feel it's way too potent considering the skill's mechanics. It's got a huge AoE, the duration is almost as long as the cooldown, and it hits all targets in its range (ignoring block and evade, IIRC) every single second while it's active. It's just stupidly easy to use and so incredibly effective that it just cheapens PvP on the whole and eclipses pretty much every other skill in the game by comparison, IMO.

And yeah, I get what you're saying about making it so you can kill people with other skills in about the same time it takes to completely disable them with Mana Burn. But like I said before, PvP would be incredibly boring for everyone if we make it so that any player, no matter how stacked, could be killed in 10 seconds or less. There would be practically no point to combos, b/c pretty much everyone would die after just one or two skill uses (especially non-stacked players), and things like debuffs would become almost pointless too b/c it would be faster to just kill people with damage rather than waste time trying to lower their defense or w/e with debuffs.

Essentially, you'd be stripping PvP of all complexity, removing all sense of strategy and more or less turn the game into a shadow of what it is now. You might as well just give everyone one skill that's a 1-hit KO, remove all gear from the game and call it a day.

[zabmaru]

Call of Duty vs Battlefield all over again.

[StormHaven]

Call of Duty vs Battlefield all over again.

URT.

[Jumpluffspore]

What if mana cost was just quadrupled for skills that are used in mana burn's AOE?

[Maronu]

What if mana cost was just quadrupled for skills that are used in mana burn's AOE?

Imo, draining is far better even if the range of mana burn is significantly reduced and/or the amount of mana drained is reduced. There is also currently a passive that makes the summoner absorb some of the mp drained, and I'm not sure how that would work if the skill just made skills cost more. Maybe it would be removed. I've said before that I really don't think the skill would be something that players would complain about if you had to stand almost right on top of someone for it to work or you could knock the summoner away/launch them from outside of the burn range. If you just increase the mp cost, players can use one skill and put the summoner where the burn doesn't do anything (in the air) or simply not use skills inside the burn and wait for it to end. I'm all for making burn more difficult to use effectively, but I don't think changing how it works to that degree is the right answer. In bsq and ew, I'm not even sure I would bother casting burn at all if it was like that. Players would only lose extra mana for their own mistakes. It cost mana and time to cast while people could use pots to restore their lost mana almost instantly. Probably just wouldn't be worth it overall.

@ Rim, a complete combo cycle or a few of them should kill a player, imo (at least if several players are working together). With % based damage modifiers and reduction modifiers it's perfectly possible to not cause a problem for the non-geared players. Example: players with +20 gear hitting 2-4 times harder then players with +0 weapons (in pvp 10 to 20% bonus damage for each enchant level - 10 to 20% damage reduction for each average armor level). I find nothing complex about repeating the same skill cycles over and over again to get the job done. I don't feel like length of a match or how long it takes to kill someone determines quality play. The whole argument of 10 seconds is way too fast (sounds like a slaughterhouse from how you put it) vs sounds about right (generally most skill cycles probably take that long...ninja's normal combo take's less) vs pvp is about right as it is, feels unnecessary because I think we both generally agree that it shouldn't take so long to kill people, at least for the non-stacked players. We just have differing opinions on about how long it should take, which may stem partly from us thinking about the game from different perspectives, as Kazu said (gear scenarios, level ranges when it comes to summoners, etc). I hope you bear with me because I somewhat exaggerate, to get the point across. We both seem to be accusing the other of speaking in extremes, but my reason for posting about flaws in the mana burn skill was mainly to point out simply that they do exist. I also wanted to point out that I feel aspects of what make mana burn currently OP stem from problems with the game in general.

Granted the skill seems pretty OP as the game is now. I'm not saying that it isn't, but it still isn't perfect, and I feel you are exaggerating somewhat as well to make your points. I've tried 1v1ing a few classes with summoner (duels and some practice matches (not all at labyrinth)) , and when players manage to get up in your face before you can get mp burn up (this is on my lvl 60 that doesn't have access to all skills) or anything else off, things get very ugly quickly. I'd assume that translates over to group, and in bsq I feel that the main reason players get hit by my skills is because they are either already locked or the chaos and amount of skills being used pressures them into making a mistake, assuming players aren't just plain bad/reckless and run into the skills on their own, lols. The summoner's fields, mana burn and prison, serve to deter players to enter your space. To me that is the point, and I don't feel that prison is sufficient by itself. I mean, yeah, right now people are scared to death of the skill, pretty much nobody understands how it works, some players run straight into it, or run away from me even when it's off, etc, but players not understanding the skill may be almost as big of a problem as the skill itself. The summoners don't have any other gtfo skills that I'm aware of, so right now I feel that the burn skill is likely a necessary skill for the summoner to have....

If you think burn should be nerfed in a way that is appropriate, reducing the range, drain amount, or even significantly reducing the cooldown but making it so that it turns off when the summoner gets hit, or also making it so that players are not burned while in the air, I think those ideas are all fine (pf could probably really wreck summoners if that was the case). However, I don't want to this skill get nerfed to such an extreme that it ends up being a useless skill, unless we get a gtfo skill or something else we can use to punish people for recklessly getting at close range to our character... I'd rather have burn nerfed somewhat and have players learn to play with it, then watch it get completely destroyed because players can't deal with it at all. "It's completely OP and that is all there is too it" is just not an acceptable viewpoint, imo. All possible strategies and aspects of the skill need to be considered when we talk about how we want to change the skill. You can tell me that there are a large number of other options for summoners and strategies involving other skills, and I believe you on that, but there are also strategies we should consider for dealing with burn before we jump to any hasty conclusion or generalization. The summoner can actually 1v1 with burn and win, while without mp burn, I at least have not been too successful. To me, that says something. And perhaps the summoner isn't intended to be a 1v1 character at all, but of course that is a matter of opinion.

For now, I do see mana burn as the best skill that summoners have. It's really the only one I ever hear people complaining about, and for now/to me that skill is really one of the ones that has made me love the class. You can disagree and say there are a lot of other better ways to play the class, but if that is the case, perhaps the amount of sp needed for different skills should be reduced because farming or buying thousands of capsules to get acess to all the summoner skills and take advantage of everything is pretty harsh and will likely discourage people from playing the class, especially if one of their most powerful tools gets weakened too much.

Strange class, summoners #9.

[zabmaru]

unless we get a gtfo skill or something else we can use to punish people for recklessly getting at close range to our character...

What about Impact Presser and Poison Guard?