72 replies to this topic

[zr0rieu]

Keep in mind that kRO does balance changes based on the assumption that players have, (or will eventually have) god items and MvP cards.

Regarding MATK formula, kRO is reluctant to change Magic attack formula because it will greatly affect players with access to high end gears such as Fallen Bishop Hibram and +12+ KvM Staff (or Bellum Wand). Unless someone can come up with a miraculous solution for direct MATK formula changes, it is highly unlikely that it will ever get changed.

[Mefistofeles]

Keep in mind that kRO does balance changes based on the assumption that players have, (or will eventually have) god items and MvP cards.

Regarding MATK formula, kRO is reluctant to change Magic attack formula because it will greatly affect players with access to high end gears such as Fallen Bishop Hibram and +12+ KvM Staff (or Bellum Wand). Unless someone can come up with a miraculous solution for direct MATK formula changes, it is highly unlikely that it will ever get changed.

at least for pvm they can make the samething as the acid bomb formula 2x more damage in pvm but reduced damage against players by half, that can fix the matk for PVM, in case of woe....... they should reduce the variable cast times or make then more fair >_>....... look a gates of hell have 1 second variable cast time and pw have 15 seconds variable cast time and 2 seconds fixed cast time >_> wth is that? at least reducing the variable cast times by half OR add more variable cast time and fixed cast times to physical skills like gates of hell >.<

[Mefistofeles]

We should take out the ranged reduction. People pretty much pot whatever I shoot at them and I'm pretty much one-shot killable by every class. Arrows seriously need to be more useful.

that would make gates of hell the ultimate skill in woe >.<

[TheSquishy]

Those who are godly geared are going to wipe the floor with everyone already.

I think the issue with magic the players would like addressed,
is that there are these huge penalties to use your biggest and baddest spells
and not even being able to reliably kill the squishier classes.

Melee classes currently have superior DPS with few if any penalties for using their best skills.

If you give a character a 1-3 minute cool down on a spell, that spell should hurt and be worth the risk
of not being able to recast it for a while.

[CheddarJack]

Those who are godly geared are going to wipe the floor with everyone already.

I think the issue with magic the players would like addressed,
is that there are these huge penalties to use your biggest and baddest spells
and not even being able to reliably kill the squishier classes.

Melee classes currently have superior DPS with few if any penalties for using their best skills.

If you give a character a 1-3 minute cool down on a spell, that spell should hurt and be worth the risk
of not being able to recast it for a while.

Exactly and skills who dont hurt much should be able to be spamable that way they kind of even out. You can go for the 1-hit kill or the high DPS

[IronFist]

Genetics cant really debuff anymore because howling will have a re super low chance of procing because it is reduced by vit and luck and has a cool down. If they got rid of the cool down it might still be somewhat useful. Hell Plant doesnt stun anyone (because everyone has at least 100 vit now) plus the damage will be super weak. CC can me used somewhat quickly, but it just doesnt do damage to be useful. Seems the only thing untouched was fruit bombs (which no one uses much anyway).

Dragon Breath should be survivable, but i think it is being resisted by the wrong things. Dragon resist should be what people need...not demi. Also i found out recently that it is reduced by regular defense as well. So High Defense+fire armor+demi resistance="Huh? Did i just get DB'ed? That tickled"

I dont know much about rangers, so i dont know what skills are good.

I do wan2 point out though that all the skill buffs and nerf ARE NOT what iRO are def getting. The GM's after the testing, will figure out which updates to keep and which to just not even use. So we will have to wait till after the patch to see what is good and what is bad

Your limiting a class with 3 skills, Cart cannon, Howling and Hellplant.... Acid bomb under string's is still going to be effective, even hellplant is still going to hurt. start looking into the class and you notice it has more skills then just these, they have a range of other skills which are very usful but have been overshadowed because these above skills were just superiour

As for dragonbreath, Fire reduction is a smiths "Thing" i mean they forge with fire and they live and breath fire... one thing that i always hated was needing to wear fire armour when i have natural resist to it. in fact i have so much fire immune gear is just stupid to be dieing from fire attacks. secondly Rune knights ARE TANKS!! they should be treated as such, sure they arnt as good as royal guards but gloomy allows for that...

secondly, Smith vs Knight battle were always balanced, but when renewal came smith jst wernt on par

Edited by IronFist, 24 October 2011 - 11:27 AM.

[asayuu]

Why not taking the ranged reduction out, but raising the skill reduction to around... 65~70% instead of 50%?

Also for Dragon Breath. The concept is weird. In theory, being a decent tanker in the place of a damage dealer should be a sacrifice, but Dragon Breath makes the Rune Knight very good, due to having high health, and THIS high health is what affects the total damage.

The fire and human reductions will come when they are made right, and rightly tested on kRO... It means someday.

And in my opinion. Gloomy should not exist, or affect more skills from [most or] all the classes. A buff only to swordsman classes is ridiculous, mainly when the class using the buff is not a swordsman class.

[CheddarJack]

Your limiting a class with 3 skills, Cart cannon, Howling and Hellplant.... Acid bomb under string's is still going to be effective, even hellplant is still going to hurt. start looking into the class and you notice it has more skills then just these, they have a range of other skills which are very usful but have been overshadowed because these above skills were just superiour

I didnt mention Acid Bomb because it atm sucks in a woe setting, even in string. People just tank it and keep going. After the patch it will be the same as it was.

Hell plant will not hurt. Atm it does about idk lets say 29k damage in pvp. that would be about 14k in woe. After the patch (based on the damage formulas) it will go down to about 17k in pvp which in woe will be about 8-9k. idk about you but with characters having between 32k-60k HP that isnt very much.

I have looked into other skills, such as fruit bombs and what not. Fruit bombs are cool. They more are for their status (such as the effect of banana bomb) than anything else. Spore explosion doesnt do enough damage. Thorn Walls can be easily taken down. Howling will be lucky if it has a 10% chance to work (on top of still having an after cast cool down).

With the Gens very low HP mob they need at least one skill that can deal high damage. They arent like Shadow Chasers who have a decent hp mod and can get into the fray and disable people. Once a gen is in the fray, it doesnt look good for them. Ive seen it many times in woe.

[TheUraharaShop]

Well if WoE damage, reductions and ideas were built from a more simplistic idea, balancing can become easier.

For example,

If the Characters HP and Damage dealt in woe was based on how you deal damage to plants, it can be better understood. It doesn't matter how high your ATK/MATK is, you always deal 1 damage. So the objective is to deal 10 damage as fast as you can rather then trying to see how high one attack can reach 10 damage.

Now if we set a base damage each character can deal based on their weapon level, upgrade level and correlating stat(s) the damage dealt Isn't based on one move, rather having a player build a character that can compete in WoE environment and place more tactics rather then who can just deal the most damage.

Also possibly setting damage output for High End Attacks, to deal 50-90% damage of the targets max HP, could also even help.

Edited by TheUraharaShop, 24 October 2011 - 01:12 PM.

[FiskBlack]

I didnt mention Acid Bomb because it atm sucks in a woe setting, even in string. People just tank it and keep going. After the patch it will be the same as it was.

Hell plant will not hurt. Atm it does about idk lets say 29k damage in pvp. that would be about 14k in woe. After the patch (based on the damage formulas) it will go down to about 17k in pvp which in woe will be about 8-9k. idk about you but with characters having between 32k-60k HP that isnt very much.

I have looked into other skills, such as fruit bombs and what not. Fruit bombs are cool. They more are for their status (such as the effect of banana bomb) than anything else. Spore explosion doesnt do enough damage. Thorn Walls can be easily taken down. Howling will be lucky if it has a 10% chance to work (on top of still having an after cast cool down).

With the Gens very low HP mob they need at least one skill that can deal high damage. They arent like Shadow Chasers who have a decent hp mod and can get into the fray and disable people. Once a gen is in the fray, it doesnt look good for them. Ive seen it many times in woe.

The problem with that is that hell plant isnt supussed to be a extremely powerful atack, just think about it, is long range trap, ignore reductions fast cast time and no aftercast delay, the damage is supussed to be good even witouth "godly" gears, and genetiscists arent actually 100% killers they are part of support with their lock skills just as thorn trap, crazy weeds, hell plant and blood sucker. Acid bomb is just good with 2x megs and mjol so its out of context.

They got bad hp mods because they are not made to go in front battle at least it what kRO wanted them to be, but right now they dont fear actually anything but suras because they can take down almost any class.. even if they are squishy they still got cart boost to run like sickos to their parties.

Killers are suras, tanks are RKs, support/killers genetics that is an example of how are the classes supussed to be, but is just my personal opinion.

[DeltaRay]

The balance patch that kRO made was based on their WOE reductions(and the rest of the world except us) once this patch hits its going to be hard to kill anything with other then gfist and maybe DB(Tao DB)?soo far the only ppl who support to reverting it back to what it was is the hardcore WOErs.

[Mefistofeles]

The balance patch that kRO made was based on their WOE reductions(and the rest of the world except us) once this patch hits its going to be hard to kill anything with other then gfist and maybe DB(Tao DB)?soo far the only ppl who support to reverting it back to what it was is the hardcore WOErs.

misclick on rep down........

And read more about updates XD db its getting reduced by racials and elemental resistances

I can remenber that in pre-renewal, g-fist was the only way to 1 shot people in woe >-<, BUT the magic was amazing!!! i remenber when a 99 hwiz was on the room.- Guildmates: SOME 1 KILL HIM NOW!!!!!! XD, they where able to kill a whole guild with a few sg but they where really easy to kill, even my double fire bolt was able to kill then.
It was about time to get this changes.

[TheUraharaShop]

The balance patch that kRO made was based on their WOE reductions(and the rest of the world except us) once this patch hits its going to be hard to kill anything with other then gfist and maybe DB(Tao DB)?soo far the only ppl who support to reverting it back to what it was is the hardcore WOErs.

Well like in most games, classes are known to play specific roles. If you have a Rook, it moves horizontal and vertical. While in iRO nearly every class isn' doesn't have a "defined movement or purpose". We assume what role the classes are suppose to play, while there are no rules restricting how class will be nerfed, it's just using a big paint brush. In comparison, most of the balance changes coming would change a game like chess into checkers. Instead of trying focus on the type of role a class plays and restricting based on it's role, just how the room can't move diagonally, balance can be better defined, created, implemented and sustained.

Some say, by knowing how something moves you can infer what it is. The first step would be to define how does the stats and skills selected tell the type of role a that class plays; because that class should not play the role of Queen in every battle.

Edited by TheUraharaShop, 24 October 2011 - 01:58 PM.

[Kadnya]

Does anyone know how effective the new homus are for woe? Some of their skills sound really nice, so probably genetics will still be happy if their pets prove to be a good at surviving.

For example, silent breeze seems like a very good recovery skill, the safety wall on your self from bayeri could be used via AI to automatically save you from a strong melee attack you wouldn't react on time, sera has some useful moves, eleanor has immobilizing skills and their combos can be automatically chained through homu AI so they might be useful unlike monk combos, and ash baby... at 100% chance, will reduce your enemies hit to halve, make their skills fail to activate half the time, and make them take half more damage from fire.

Ash status and in general new homunculus make me think that genetics might still be very useful...

[MagicHands]

The problem with that is that hell plant isnt supussed to be a extremely powerful atack, just think about it, is long range trap, ignore reductions fast cast time and no aftercast delay, the damage is supussed to be good even witouth "godly" gears, and genetiscists arent actually 100% killers they are part of support with their lock skills just as thorn trap, crazy weeds, hell plant and blood sucker. Acid bomb is just good with 2x megs and mjol so its out of context.

They got bad hp mods because they are not made to go in front battle at least it what kRO wanted them to be, but right now they dont fear actually anything but suras because they can take down almost any class.. even if they are squishy they still got cart boost to run like sickos to their parties.

Killers are suras, tanks are RGs, support/killers genetics that is an example of how are the classes supussed to be, but is just my personal opinion.

Ok Lets get one thing straight, RKs are supposed to be killers, just because there meatshields doesnt mean that there supposed to not kill anyone. Its how efficiently they kill people that is what the problem is, Having dragons breath along with a few other skills that easily do over 30k damage is rediculious especially when there AoE.
Also a lot of the people in this thread need to realize what they trying to do. There trying to make 3rd class skills more important than the 2nd class skills in which you shouldnt have to rely on them, lets take example for gfist, the reason they are nerfing it to such extremes is because there trying to make 3rd class skills > 2nd class skills. Thats why im having a hard time understanding why there nerfing hells plant and everything else to such extreme, Genetics have a very low HP mod and so being able to be a proficient killer should be entitled with easily being killed by most classes.

Edited by Inubashiri, 24 October 2011 - 03:45 PM.
leave the person insults to PMs please

[bored]

i remember reading somewhere pre renewal that royal guards were supposed to be super defensive ones instead of the offense, while rune knight was more based on offense then defense, but it turned out that royal guards were both and rune knights were the weaker ones :\ like here http://ro.doddlercon...tle=3rd_Classes

[CeruleanGamer]

Tetra Vortex should IGNORE ALL MDEF. It should be the magic equivalent of Guillotine Fist for Suras. That way Warlocks can actually compete in PvP/WoE, not just PvM. Besides, it needs to be Amped to get the most damage, takes time to set up because you need 4 summon balls, and manual casting it is as slow as casting Storm Gust without Magic Strings so people store it in Spellbooks instead. It is still inferior to Gates of Hell or Guillotine Fist...

And in my opinion. Gloomy should not exist, or affect more skills from [most or] all the classes. A buff only to swordsman classes is ridiculous, mainly when the class using the buff is not a swordsman class.

If they are gonna make Gloomy affect only swordy classes, they should have it for other classes too... For example, Cross Impact/Sonic Blow for Sins, High Speed Cart Ram for Smiths, Arrow Vulcan for Performers, etc.

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 24 October 2011 - 02:24 PM.

[DeltaRay]

for the record I support the change back to what it was.

[asayuu]

Tetra Vortex should IGNORE ALL MDEF. It should be the magic equivalent of Guillotine Fist for Suras. That way Warlocks can actually compete in PvP/WoE, not just PvM. Besides, it needs to be Amped to get the most damage, takes time to set up because you need 4 summon balls, and manual casting it is as slow as casting Storm Gust without Magic Strings so people store it in Spellbooks instead. It is still inferior to Gates of Hell or Guillotine Fist...




If they are gonna make Gloomy affect only swordy classes, they should have it for other classes too... For example, Cross Impact/Sonic Blow for Sins, High Speed Cart Ram for Smiths, Arrow Vulcan for Performers, etc.

mmhmm~ This is what I would like to see on Gloomy. A buff for all the classes, or at least most. Only for sword classes is unfair... For the others. Even for the performers.

I liked the nerf, but in the other side, I would like to see more skills [not sword-class only] buffed.

[Wizard]

Tetra Vortex should IGNORE ALL MDEF. It should be the magic equivalent of Guillotine Fist for Suras. That way Warlocks can actually compete in PvP/WoE, not just PvM. Besides, it needs to be Amped to get the most damage, takes time to set up because you need 4 summon balls, and manual casting it is as slow as casting Storm Gust without Magic Strings so people store it in Spellbooks instead. It is still inferior to Gates of Hell or Guillotine Fist...

MDEF as of right now, doesn't reduce much of the end damage since what it counts is MDEF from equipment to reduce it...

You as TV user usually have everything set up as soon as you cast TV so when your cooldown is done you can re-cast it w/o problem... then again, why use TV when you have something that deals almost as much damage as it does TV and is highly DPS and much more effective?, for spell book, you don't want to store TV for WoE since the WoE reduction and the lack of AMP would make it a waste of space, as you said, with strings, you can store better spells that can be used more effective (and spammable with strings).

And lastly, with good STATS, you can have TV cast time reduced in near +90% depending on your stats... usually less than 1.5 second to cast it... and yes, I said STATS, not GEARS... with good gears specifically to Caster Build, you can reduce it even further... but that's a different case.

Edited by Wizard, 24 October 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[MagicHands]

Its called play 2 win not pay, you just havent played this game enough from the observations that i gather.

[TheUraharaShop]

Why is everyone only arguing over one or two skills, when it's not those one or two skills that IS the mitigating factor in victory. Why don't we focus what stats and skills does a class need to do in order for a guild to defend or attack a castle. This will define what that class job is based on stats and skills. This moves the argument away from "YOU CAN BLOCK THIS SKILL WITH THAT SKILL YOU NOOB" In to a more of a focus on skills having the advantage or disadvantage on the jobs those characters play rather then the class it's self.

[IronFist]

I didnt mention Acid Bomb because it atm sucks in a woe setting, even in string. People just tank it and keep going. After the patch it will be the same as it was.

Hell plant will not hurt. Atm it does about idk lets say 29k damage in pvp. that would be about 14k in woe. After the patch (based on the damage formulas) it will go down to about 17k in pvp which in woe will be about 8-9k. idk about you but with characters having between 32k-60k HP that isnt very much.

I have looked into other skills, such as fruit bombs and what not. Fruit bombs are cool. They more are for their status (such as the effect of banana bomb) than anything else. Spore explosion doesnt do enough damage. Thorn Walls can be easily taken down. Howling will be lucky if it has a 10% chance to work (on top of still having an after cast cool down).

With the Gens very low HP mob they need at least one skill that can deal high damage. They arent like Shadow Chasers who have a decent hp mod and can get into the fray and disable people. Once a gen is in the fray, it doesnt look good for them. Ive seen it many times in woe.

Your missing the big picture here, DPS... it doesnt matter how much damage it does, when u can spam a skill over and over every second or too NO MATTER max hp, they will die.

Mechanics HSCR is weak, you doing maybe 6k-3k but when ur doing it 3 times a seconds it becomes very hard to outpot.

The big picture here is, Can you deal more DPS then they can Heal per second?
(Note: Swordies heal 25% more "Increase HP Recovery")
Your going to get players who just wont die, but at the end of the day, they are just wasting potions/ales/berrys (Guild Leaders - More zeny then brains )

p.s. if you have played RO2 you know that movement speed plays are large role in offensive and defensive capability.

Edited by IronFist, 24 October 2011 - 03:16 PM.

[FiskBlack]

Ok Lets get one thing straight, RKs are supposed to be killers, just because there meatshields doesnt mean that there supposed to not kill anyone. Its how efficiently they kill people that is what the problem is, Having dragons breath along with a few other skills that easily do over 30k damage is rediculious especially when there AoE.
Also a lot of the people in this thread need to realize what they trying to do. There trying to make 3rd class skills more important than the 2nd class skills in which you shouldnt have to rely on them, lets take example for gfist, the reason they are nerfing it to such extremes is because there trying to make 3rd class skills > 2nd class skills. Thats why im having a hard time understanding why there nerfing hells plant and everything else to such extreme, Genetics have a very low HP mod and so being able to be a proficient killer should be entitled with easily being killed by most classes.

Say hi to millemium shield and 70k+ hp, you just show your idioticy with every post you make...

Edited by Inubashiri, 24 October 2011 - 03:44 PM.
fixing quote

[Inubashiri]

Lets try to keep on topic please and take the fights outside.