55 replies to this topic

[StormHaven]

Thats not what i mean, I mean 0 cash, as a clean character, and no cash means -7 armor, -7 weapon and of course a ver low aim rate.

Yup I can still name Dragoons who have done that.
also I can get 420aim without using any cash.

Edited by StormHaven, 11 February 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Kazu731]

I don't like this--people proving Vanille wrong without me.

[tainguyen]

.... U can just use gold to buy competitive gear. Ppl sell legendary +20/15 paris wings at times. You can buy multiple sealed gear and get a chance for artifact. Only problem is aim. Aim needs cash for perfect stats. Yet again, I just give evaders their sick kicks for losing against them.

[Kazu731]

.... U can just use gold to buy competitive gear. Ppl sell legendary +20/15 paris wings at times. You can buy multiple sealed gear and get a chance for artifact. Only problem is aim. Aim needs cash for perfect stats. Yet again, I just give evaders their sick kicks for losing against them.

I think this statement is entirely backwards. The gold necessary to buy someone's enchanted Paris Wings is mountainous in size--you're talking well above 20,000 and even farming Dragon Velly all day every day will bring you nowhere near close to farming that without some influence of IM.

On the other hand, Aim is built into mostly everything. You can farm Alexandre Gloves and Kryos Boots for good amounts of Agility, Kryos Rings, and soulcraft Aim onto Jewelery and Agility onto set pieces. True, you can use IM to make this less painstaking with randomizers, but it's nowhere near the amount of luxury you get from buying Fl50 scrolls from the Item Mall or getting Insurance scrolls.

Edited by Kazu731, 11 February 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Nhat]

You must have missed the drama over someone challenging Storm to kill BD without IM. Also if you're using literal NPC gear at that stage, you should uninstall.

"PvP wise BSQ everyone is relatively undergeared until the 50+ bracket at which point some people are stacked."
That's just flat out wrong. Have you been in 40 BSQ? Ever hear of Purge? People are stacked in 40 BSQ too, and they also stack the teams.

My opinion of PvE is that except for Elga, free IM from events is pretty much enough for your weapon. If you need to enchant your armor for PvE before elga, l2dodge.

Edit: That being said, BSQ and Emporia do require some moderate/heavy IM usage if you want to keep up. However, saying "I need a +10 weapon to kill BD" is just silly.

A little late but just want you to know that storm clearly said he didn't use IM then goes on to later say he bought some of the equipment the way they are. So in theory someone could buy +20 equip and say they dont use IM..........

[Kazu731]

A little late but just want you to know that storm clearly said he didn't use IM then goes on to later say he bought some of the equipment the way they are. So in theory someone could buy +20 equip and say they dont use IM..........

You could. But in the world we live in, normal people are smart enough to understand the concept that there are points where IM advantage significantly increases. A +10 Alexandre Glove, for example, hardly offers any difference than a +4 Alexandre Glove. Unless you're talking about immense DEF or ATK increases it's a pretty silly argument to make the point that WELL THE SELLER COULD HAVE USED IM TO MAKE IT BETTER. He clearly wasn't using Hero Secmathian pieces or Paris Wings because they didn't exist at the time, and I can't name his weapon but even if it was unenchanted the only difference an enchant would make is killing it faster. Not that I remember what he used, but the argument is beyond ridiculous.

EDIT: Notice that I mentioned items with high defense. This is because these particular items have a very large defense scale as they get enchanted to higher levels. In this case, what I mean is that a +10 Hero Secmathian would most certainly make a difference at Bone Dragon. This only furthers the case that before these items existed the scale was MUCH flatter.

Edited by Kazu731, 11 February 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[StormHaven]

You could. But in the world we live in, normal people are smart enough to understand the concept that there are points where IM advantage significantly increases. A +10 Alexandre Glove, for example, hardly offers any difference than a +4 Alexandre Glove. Unless you're talking about immense DEF or ATK increases it's a pretty silly argument to make the point that WELL THE SELLER COULD HAVE USED IM TO MAKE IT BETTER. He clearly wasn't using Hero Secmathian pieces or Paris Wings because they didn't exist at the time, and I can't name his weapon but even if it was unenchanted the only difference and enchant would make is killing it faster. Not that I remember what he used, but the argument is beyond ridiculous.

+5 Prem Loak with +32agi on it. bought off the market for 50g.

[Kazu731]

+5 can be done without Insurances, to those who don't understand that.

[Nhat]

Artifact aram earings were also used and also some guardian equips with unknown encahnt and sc option which he claims that he bought from the market.

[StormHaven]

Artifact aram earings were also used and also some guardian equips with unknown encahnt and sc option which he claims that he bought from the market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqNPtrVRPiw

shows all the equipment right there.
If you really wanna argue over earrings that are used solely for the 2nd piece bonus they give then be my guest.
As for my IM gear it was Adv FG/WG pieces with either agi or eva on them. I wasn't around during the days of water guardian so I had to buy those pieces from the market which was easy to do with old F7.


edit: If you don't believe it after that video I will gladly perform a live stream of me killing BD or Paris without using any IM.

Edited by StormHaven, 11 February 2012 - 10:13 PM.

[Kazu731]

Sorry Storm, I'll let you correct people yourself. The rationale of some people baffles me though.

Spoiler

Artifact aram earings were also used and also some guardian equips with unknown encahnt and sc option which he claims that he bought from the market.

And yet the point remains miraculously moot. Hypothetically, yes, you can unseal stuff at Artifact. None of these are unsealable items, true--so we'll drop that. On that note, how gigantic of a difference do you think, against Bone Dragon, a full Guardian set would make? How about Aram Earrings? If you want to argue Soulcraft options, unless someone has "Max Physical Attack + 100,000%" on their earrings, I am pretty sure no other option is going to be the golden ticket to victory. This isn't to say that his demonstration may not have been a bit flawed, because he could prove it just as easily if everything was green and it was indeed Storm's fault to assume people could make this distinction of Soulcraft usefulness. As for enchant on Guardian equips, I won't bother because any enchant on them would be extraordinarily small in terms of defense at the time, and even the full effect of the set or a combination to get the Agility would prove insignificant.

An indication: why do you think we "stack" stats? It's because, alone, stats are just as useless as Strength. If you have only one piece of equipment that has agility on it and that is all you have with Agility--here's a large surprise for you: your agility isn't going to do anything.

Edited by Kazu731, 11 February 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[tainguyen]

I think this statement is entirely backwards. The gold necessary to buy someone's enchanted Paris Wings is mountainous in size--you're talking well above 20,000 and even farming Dragon Velly all day every day will bring you nowhere near close to farming that without some influence of IM.

U sure like to over exaggerate ball park range for good z weapon/paris wings is 15k->40k. making 20,000g is very possible. probably can be done in 3 weeks (3 hours a day). There is other methods of making gold which is faster too. Also, i was never saying anything about not using IM. i would encourage him to buy im gear with "GOLD".. if he has the patients to farm, then he can do whatever.

and of course, we lost a new player. gg. everytime someone posts a thread like this, you guys chase away.

[Maronu]

A little late but just want you to know that storm clearly said he didn't use IM then goes on to later say he bought some of the equipment the way they are. So in theory someone could buy +20 equip and say they dont use IM..........

Yeah, but you're still spending forever grinding for gold (probably without a +20 weapon so it's slower) and then you have to hope that somebody has the specific piece that you are looking for. Just because somebody could hypothetically get all their gear to +20 without spending money doesn't make it very reasonable or practical.

The geared pvp scene is pretty Pay2Win in this game. Probably will stay that way unless professions get fixed and we start getting reinforced insurance from events. But hey, at least we can play naked to make things fair!

I think a better point is that you can obtain gear that is reasonable for PVE (+10-15) until the very last boss without spending real money.

Edited by Maronu, 11 February 2012 - 10:15 PM.

[Monyot]

To those people who think it is impossible to defeat BD without cash:

We have HEALING ITEM and we can REVIVE with gold!!!! As long as you don't die in 1 hit, you can keep getting healed using cake or other healing items. Even you died, you can CONTINUE fighting the boss over and over (just need to bring spare armor/weapon since they will broke after you died like 10 times. But on first place, you should not die that many if you learn how to fight it).

I got impression that those people only want to defeat BD easily, quickly, don't want to use healing items at all, don't want to die at all, and don't want to THINK any other possibility than using cash. Surely it is more difficult to defeat BD without cash, especially since BD can heal by absorbing the mobs, but it is POSSIBLE.

ON TOPICS: Overall there are some ways to win without cash. They are just more difficult, need MUCH more time, and sometimes you need think out of the box to realize that. The last point is more difficult because there are A LOT of people who depend on cash or use much cash, making you think it is the only way to win and stop "playing" the game. But it is a game. A game is meant to be played. Personally I really enjoy the game when I play it and discover the "unconventional" way to "win" something, even though it is more difficult. Even in EW/BSQ you can contribute without godly armor as long you learn the rule and use your class "correctly".

[StormHaven]

Sorry I'm late, I left the oven on.

bwahahaha.

[Nhat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqNPtrVRPiw

shows all the equipment right there.
If you really wanna argue over earrings that are used solely for the 2nd piece bonus they give then be my guest.
As for my IM gear it was Adv FG/WG pieces with either agi or eva on them. I wasn't around during the days of water guardian so I had to buy those pieces from the market which was easy to do with old F7.


edit: If you don't believe it after that video I will gladly perform a live stream of me killing BD or Paris without using any IM.

In none of my post did I ever say it's impossible to run BD without the use of IM; however, at first you said you farmed all your equips then later say you bought some equips which seems to contradict the previous statement you made. Also your IM set was never shown in the video; ergo, there's no proof of what stat is on the guardian set. I don't really want to get into the arguement of how much of a difference one item can make.( kind of remind me of how Yurai argued more about how an IM belt wont make a difference rather then how he didn't do it in the tournament." Just going to leave it at that.

[GrapefruitGod]

I swear it's impossible for anyone to make a topic without people trying to incite arguments and start drama.

[Reikaa]

Pay2Win ?

Define win. I speak in racing terms, so that means, the person with the most movement speed wins. Go Thuy!

And no, don't need to pay to win that race.

Edited by Reikaa, 12 February 2012 - 07:32 AM.

[zabmaru]

I don't really want to get into the arguement of how much of a difference one item can make.( kind of remind me of how Yurai argued more about how an IM belt wont make a difference rather then how he didn't do it in the tournament."

ugh ugh, me caveman Nhat, me do grammar

Also, I'm guessing you didn't bother to read Kazu's latest post.

Edited by zabmaru, 12 February 2012 - 07:48 AM.

[Rimmy]

While it is true that spending cash can make a significant difference, I wouldn't say it's the only option, as others have pointed out.

Having said that, if you're looking to stay competitive in PvP at higher levels and you don't want to spend a ton of IM, I'd say you should choose your class carefully, because -- as someone else mentioned -- class can be a big factor in determining how much cash you need to spend to stay competitive, IMO.

There are always proposals being reviewed by the GM team and the developers to help bring better balance to the game, and that goes for the balance between cash/non-cash users, as well.

If you want to learn more, read over some of the discussion in the game balance section of the forums -- solutions or adjustments are already being considered with regards to many of the issues raised, such as the problem with extremely high DEF/MDEF values. The question has been raised, for example, about how it would affect game balance if DEF/MDEF values were lowered significantly, and how that would impact the ability of cash users to gain an insurmountable advantage over non-cash users.

Basically, the notion is this: That there will likely always be a gap between cash and non-cash users, but that we can limit the size of that gap through game balance so that non-cash users can still have a competitive chance against cash users.

While it may take time to implement such adjustments, rest assured that they are in the works -- it's just a matter of coming up with proposals that the development team can or will implement.

One idea the GM team came up with that is being worked on was already mentioned: Adding a system that rewards Item Mall items (insurance scrolls, randomizers, etc.) to guilds that choose to participate in EW (all they have to do is participate, not win). It's through implementation of such systems that we can help non-cash users gain the edge they need to work toward more competitive play and make the whole experience of PvP (and PvE) more rewarding for everyone.

[Execrate]

@ Storm's BD run

You could've subbed out the aram earrings for arka or etc 5* Eclipse earrings to help with healing. Shootdown offers 15 chances to recover x hp every 4-5 seconds, not to mention all of the PF skills that hit multiple times.

[Vanille]

Yup I can still name Dragoons who have done that.
also I can get 420aim without using any cash.

Done? when? can you name someone who can beat you right now?

Yes, prolly you can as an ARCHER, what about a paladin? how much aim can someone get without ANY cash?

Also why ppl argue about soloing bd? is not a big deal and anyone can do it (if you are dumb enough to spend that time to do it)

Edited by Vanille, 12 February 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[ohsnap]

Dragoon without cash= useless.

your point is trash.

2 kryos rings, ryvius belt, carsharp helm, vc earrings, 100 agi from lvling to 80, 25 agi from sec necklace. These items aren't that hard to farm and they give a good amount of aim without aim% soulcraft on them. Pallies also have an aim buff.

Edited by ohsnap, 12 February 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[igozuvi]

Also why ppl argue about soloing bd?

this is the only thing i've agreed with you so far. while it's an impressive challenge, people need to understand the difference between "the game is possible without IM" and "would you actually play the game this way all the time."

Edited by igozuvi, 12 February 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Kazu731]

this is the only thing i've agreed with you so far. while it's an impressive challenge, people need to understand the difference between "the game is possible without IM" and "would you actually play the game this way all the time."

It's because Bone Dragon is a suitable test of the later game's difficulty level and even then it's not like it takes boatloads of time to complete. I am pretty sure it wouldn't be crippling in the least, in my opinion.