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#151 Ralis

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 01:31 AM

Heim has also stated several times that they there's a minimum 'value' to the box, meaning you never really 'win' or 'lose', just some items are better than others.

That was the reason he gave when people were asking for a 100% prize like Blue Herbs for a Groove Pack. To make it actually match the value of what they needed to be, he'd have to have put thousands of them as the prize for each box.
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#152 Myzery

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:43 AM

The devil is in the details. eBay's Mystery Boxes are no different than this. Would you say they are illegal too?

Part of argument is the issue that you are drawing your own lines where 'bad gambling' begins and ends, rather than looking at what the laws are explicitly saying.

The point is whether the item that you win has value in money or moneys worth. If the item has value, then it could be gambling, but not necessarily. In this case, there is no monetary or physical gain from it. To avoid regulation by these laws the MMOG companies would need to take reasonable steps to ensure that the rewards they give do not have a monetary value and this is done by enforcement of their Terms of Service prohibiting secondary markets such as RMT.

tl;dr: Since the game does not offer money nor a tangible material good then it's not officially gambling. Also you do win something everytime you open one as opposed to nothing, gambling usually involves win or lose much like upgrading.


The eBay thing is way different. The lucky boxes here put something extremely desirable for you to chase after.
The state laws also vary. Gravity US is based out of Marina Del Rey California.




There's a similar form of gambling that's illegal in California.

Penal Code Sec. 319.3.

319.3. (a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags.

Same exact thing as a lucky box. It's just using sports cards as an example.

Heim never posts the odds for anything and you do have to get your money out of it since 3$ converts directly to 300 WPE.
Buffs scrolls and whatever garbage Heim wants to justify putting in as the lowest prize isn't worth that much.
Placing something like 3 reset stones as the default prize would be the most logical way to define the worth.
It sucks, but zeny translates directly into money also.

In the end, this box is just a scheme to trick people into buying a chance at something that's pretty much needed to be top notch in a game.
It's gambling plain and simple. Someone needed to press this issue a long time ago and it's really gonna look bad that people under 18 are participating.
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#153 Niji

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:10 AM

The eBay thing is way different. The lucky boxes here put something extremely desirable for you to chase after.
The state laws also vary. Gravity US is based out of Marina Del Rey California.




There's a similar form of gambling that's illegal in California.

Penal Code Sec. 319.3.

319.3. (a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags.

Same exact thing as a lucky box. It's just using sports cards as an example.

Heim never posts the odds for anything and you do have to get your money out of it since 3$ converts directly to 300 WPE.
Buffs scrolls and whatever garbage Heim wants to justify putting in as the lowest prize isn't worth that much.
Placing something like 3 reset stones as the default prize would be the most logical way to define the worth.
It sucks, but zeny translates directly into money also.

In the end, this box is just a scheme to trick people into buying a chance at something that's pretty much needed to be top notch in a game.
It's gambling plain and simple. Someone needed to press this issue a long time ago and it's really gonna look bad that people under 18 are participating.

you know just because you hate this game doesn't mean you have to destroy it for everyone else. gravity has already stated in it's toc you can't make money off the game they will ban you if they catch you. saying that they have to monitor everyone that plays the game for doing that is like saying that Robitussin has a responsibility to not sell it's cough syrup to kids so they can get high on it, or it's like saying that the makers of Oxycontin are responsible for all the addicts taking their drug. that's bs and you know it. it's the parent's responsibility to know what their minor children are doing on the internet, that includes buying lucky boxes. since the parent 90% of the time is the one shoveling out the money. honestly if i was gravity i would ban you from this game just for saying crap like that.
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#154 Shiroi17

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:31 AM

The eBay thing is way different. The lucky boxes here put something extremely desirable for you to chase after.
The state laws also vary. Gravity US is based out of Marina Del Rey California.




There's a similar form of gambling that's illegal in California.

Penal Code Sec. 319.3.

319.3. (a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags.

Same exact thing as a lucky box. It's just using sports cards as an example.

Heim never posts the odds for anything and you do have to get your money out of it since 3$ converts directly to 300 WPE.
Buffs scrolls and whatever garbage Heim wants to justify putting in as the lowest prize isn't worth that much.
Placing something like 3 reset stones as the default prize would be the most logical way to define the worth.
It sucks, but zeny translates directly into money also.

In the end, this box is just a scheme to trick people into buying a chance at something that's pretty much needed to be top notch in a game.
It's gambling plain and simple. Someone needed to press this issue a long time ago and it's really gonna look bad that people under 18 are participating.


Trading card booster pack are illegal in california? I doubt it. They display the rarity of the items, by ranks, S being the rarest and D being the most common, exactly the same as in MTG card game. but they use Common, Uncommon, Rare and Mythic Rare.

Also, underage shouldn't be using credit cards, that is a parenting issue.

Edited by Shiroi17, 11 February 2012 - 10:31 AM.

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#155 EvilLoynis

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:41 AM

Well this is junk for me as my VIP expired while all the crap was going on and I am not going to renew as I have lost over a month due to all your crap.
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#156 Wizard

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:46 AM

soooo when's enriched coming back, after the 28th I take it?


Maybe next maintenance xD

PS: Some people take buying Boxes as a Sport... I do treat it like that just like every other hobby I have (TCG's, OCG's, etc).

Edited by Wizard, 11 February 2012 - 11:49 AM.

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#157 Xellie

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:48 AM

I always wondered when the ethics of RO turning into an e-casino wherein the players gamble real money for what pixels they will be renting on someone elses server would come up. That kind of thing is illegal in other countries and some require that any gambling has a tangible prize but, I wouldn't expect this to go anywhere, regardless.
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#158 Wizard

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:03 PM

I always wondered when the ethics of RO turning into an e-casino wherein the players gamble real money for what pixels they will be renting on someone elses server would come up. That kind of thing is illegal in other countries and some require that any gambling has a tangible prize but, I wouldn't expect this to go anywhere, regardless.


Isn't that kinda like going to Las vegas?

I mean... when u gamble, u know actually what your risks are... so the person doing it knows the pro and cons before risking in the gamble?

I think every person knows what are they bidding on when they decide to buy a box... same as any other place where u decide to gamble... Then again, not sure if that's legal or not... as I said before some people take it like a hobby...
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#159 Xellie

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:14 PM

Isn't that kinda like going to Las vegas?

I mean... when u gamble, u know actually what your risks are... so the person doing it knows the pro and cons before risking in the gamble?

I think every person knows what are they bidding on when they decide to buy a box... same as any other place where u decide to gamble... Then again, not sure if that's legal or not... as I said before some people take it like a hobby...


RO isn't rated 18+ which is the gambling age, right?
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#160 Kitten

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:25 PM

you know just because you hate this game doesn't mean you have to destroy it for everyone else. gravity has already stated in it's toc you can't make money off the game they will ban you if they catch you. saying that they have to monitor everyone that plays the game for doing that is like saying that Robitussin has a responsibility to not sell it's cough syrup to kids so they can get high on it, or it's like saying that the makers of Oxycontin are responsible for all the addicts taking their drug. that's bs and you know it. it's the parent's responsibility to know what their minor children are doing on the internet, that includes buying lucky boxes. since the parent 90% of the time is the one shoveling out the money. honestly if i was gravity i would ban you from this game just for saying crap like that.


Are you saying if there were no Lucky Boxes the game would be destroyed for you?
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#161 Wizard

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:47 PM

RO isn't rated 18+ which is the gambling age, right?


No doubt about it... how to control that is an issue as well...

@ Lil Kitten... I think the Rainbow meant "ruined" instead of "destroying"? not sure but that would make more sense I believe...
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#162 Hrishi

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 03:52 PM

you know just because you hate this game doesn't mean you have to destroy it for everyone else. gravity has already stated in it's toc you can't make money off the game they will ban you if they catch you. saying that they have to monitor everyone that plays the game for doing that is like saying that Robitussin has a responsibility to not sell it's cough syrup to kids so they can get high on it, or it's like saying that the makers of Oxycontin are responsible for all the addicts taking their drug. that's bs and you know it. it's the parent's responsibility to know what their minor children are doing on the internet, that includes buying lucky boxes. since the parent 90% of the time is the one shoveling out the money. honestly if i was gravity i would ban you from this game just for saying crap like that.


You are so wrong. He does not hate this game. He hates what this game has become, a cash shop pay-to-win -_-ty generic MMO, when back in the day it was an amazing game.
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#163 Versath

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:01 PM

You are so wrong. He does not hate this game. He hates what this game has become, a cash shop pay-to-win -_-ty generic MMO, when back in the day it was an amazing game.


Yes well the game isn't worth paying monthly for anymore for the majority of the playerbase, gravity needs to make an income somehow and the shop items are the best source they have I would think, no cash items or subs = no iRO this game is far to old to compete with the newer more polished MMO's of this time.

as for this being gambling, that just makes me laugh, so if I give my son money to go get a pack of hockey cards and he doesn't get the one card he wanted can I say that this "game of chance" is to much like gambling and should not be allowed?

Edited by Versath, 11 February 2012 - 08:02 PM.

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#164 victork

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:21 AM

Yes well the game isn't worth paying monthly for anymore for the majority of the playerbase, gravity needs to make an income somehow and the shop items are the best source they have I would think, no cash items or subs = no iRO this game is far to old to compete with the newer more polished MMO's of this time.

as for this being gambling, that just makes me laugh, so if I give my son money to go get a pack of hockey cards and he doesn't get the one card he wanted can I say that this "game of chance" is to much like gambling and should not be allowed?



totally Agree with you Versath, but i think the underlying issue is that RO can make money but to how much extend do they want to make money?

Get the difference? Nobody expects to get anything for free, we dont either, but please dont put the priority of making quick money now, and ruin the game of RO for everyone.

Logically we all know that companies have goals of meeting their target of the month,year,etc. But dont be an ass and disregard your customers!

Which is what I personally feel Gravity has done.
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#165 Xellie

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:36 AM

Yes well the game isn't worth paying monthly for anymore for the majority of the playerbase, gravity needs to make an income somehow and the shop items are the best source they have I would think, no cash items or subs = no iRO this game is far to old to compete with the newer more polished MMO's of this time.

as for this being gambling, that just makes me laugh, so if I give my son money to go get a pack of hockey cards and he doesn't get the one card he wanted can I say that this "game of chance" is to much like gambling and should not be allowed?


The difference is in how trading cards work. In each pack, you're guarenteed X rare/super rare and Y others. Plus, these are a physical object with a physical value. Trading cards also take into account the collectors value of the cards too. So whenever you open a pack of those cards, you're guarenteed one card of _____ Value (the rare/super rare) even if it's not what you wanted.

With ROs boxes, you are not guarenteed that the item inside will meet the value of the points you paid for it. (does a buff scroll box come to 300 pts?) - this is a huge technical difference. RMT is also illegal, so you are really not ever going to get a physical prize from the gambling.

When this topic comes up, I do worry about RO, across the world there are all sorts of laws regarding physical objects being required as a prize for a gamble, as well as the asian laws about games that require an 18+ rating for lucky box type transactions to be legal in an MMO.

The mentality that this is wrong/immoral IS spreading and sooner or later, RO is going to have to face up to this becoming an issue. Because when you're encouraging underage gamers to take part in gambling type transactions without them actually winning something tangible they can get their money back with so to speak, it makes a lot of people question if this is something that should be a part of society.

There are ways iRO will be able to get around this when it eventually hits MMOs hosted in the US, but that's when it happens.
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#166 Niji

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 12:26 PM

You are so wrong. He does not hate this game. He hates what this game has become, a cash shop pay-to-win -_-ty generic MMO, when back in the day it was an amazing game.

i know it was an amazing game problem being it dosn't matter now all the old players are who made it amazing and they are gone.....T.T what they have made it into now is the new gameing world where children have been handed everything by their parents and too lazy to even grind on a game so they have to make it easyer just like they make school easyer for them. it's sad but the old game isn't comming back i'm sorry to say.
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#167 aquaria

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:40 PM

Anyone know when will valentine's box last till?
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#168 Myzery

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:57 AM

Yes well the game isn't worth paying monthly for anymore for the majority of the playerbase, gravity needs to make an income somehow and the shop items are the best source they have I would think, no cash items or subs = no iRO this game is far to old to compete with the newer more polished MMO's of this time.

as for this being gambling, that just makes me laugh, so if I give my son money to go get a pack of hockey cards and he doesn't get the one card he wanted can I say that this "game of chance" is to much like gambling and should not be allowed?


I hope you never have that proverbial son if you can't understand how a pack of trading cards is different.
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#169 DarkDan

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:30 PM

I think a lot of new players that can afford the cash shop like it. Obviously if you can't afford the cash shop you can trade zeny for WPE. I don't want a lot of people to hate on me but I think I would of quit this game without its current set up. My explanation is that at least on my server(Valk) the bots have devalued the market for low level stuff. If I had to farm and npc things over and over and over again, I would of been long gone. I have a job and too little spare time as it is. I would rather have fun doing what I enjoy. For me at least it is easier to buy a couple CEB's and over upgrade them for zeny or buy some lucky boxes and sell the stuff for zeny.

I can see how old school players might hate the new setup though. It would suck spending years to get a Asprika and have a backpack come out from cash shop that is worth much more lol. Same goes for the CEB and Immune shield. Same goes for easy upgrading from enriched hammer. Even I remember when +9 was still tough(before hd ores). Almost seems like most of the new cash gear is better lol. I don't have a problem with it because thats how the game has been since I started. :unsure:
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#170 Aloria

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:37 PM

tl;dr: Since the game does not offer money nor a tangible material good then it's not officially gambling.

This is pretty much what I thought when reading all of the above.


You are putting rl money in knowing full well you will not get rl money back (even by chance - ie. the card grab bag) due to the Terms of Service.

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling


Edit: It's a touchy line... whether it is or isn't.

Edited by Aloria, 13 February 2012 - 01:46 PM.

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#171 Xellie

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:50 PM

I think lucky boxes are technically defined as a lottery.
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#172 lainee

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:34 PM

This is pretty much what I thought when reading all of the above.

You are putting rl money in knowing full well you will not get rl money back (even by chance - ie. the card grab bag) due to the Terms of Service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling


In a casino you exchange real money for 'chips' or 'tokens' to gamble with. In iRO, you are exchanging money for Kafra Points. It's much the same thing.

I would have no issue with the basic idea of lucky boxes if the lowest tier prize equated to 300kp of 'enhanced game experience'. If it is any less than the stake wagered (300kp), then yes it becomes gambling or a lottery.

With the lower tier prizes, while with some it's hard to assign a real world value to them, it safe to say things like 99 Merch scrolls do give you 300kp ($3.00) of 'enhanced game experience' - 5 hours worth of Mercs (though would be nice if they were transferable to your other accounts).

The Party Buff Scrolls on the other hand give you 0kp and $0.00 worth of enhanced playing because those skills can be done in game for free. Even if the Party Buff Scroll pack contained ten times the amount of scrolls, it still would not equate to 300kp. The same can be said for Slot adds in their current form.

So why are things like Buff Scrolls and Slot adverts included? For one single reason, they are basically a token to be exchanged with the boxter. That is the real purpose for their inclusion.

If Gravity wanted to ensure that the luckybox system was never viewed as gambling (and can't be bothered to come up with more prizes like the 99 mercs) then they should use 300kp of random Kafra consumables (3 reset stones, 300kp worth of gwing and so on). If they did this, then there would be no argument on the subject.
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#173 DarkDan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:45 AM

In a casino you exchange real money for 'chips' or 'tokens' to gamble with. In iRO, you are exchanging money for Kafra Points. It's much the same thing.

I would have no issue with the basic idea of lucky boxes if the lowest tier prize equated to 300kp of 'enhanced game experience'. If it is any less than the stake wagered (300kp), then yes it becomes gambling or a lottery.

With the lower tier prizes, while with some it's hard to assign a real world value to them, it safe to say things like 99 Merch scrolls do give you 300kp ($3.00) of 'enhanced game experience' - 5 hours worth of Mercs (though would be nice if they were transferable to your other accounts).

The Party Buff Scrolls on the other hand give you 0kp and $0.00 worth of enhanced playing because those skills can be done in game for free. Even if the Party Buff Scroll pack contained ten times the amount of scrolls, it still would not equate to 300kp. The same can be said for Slot adds in their current form.

So why are things like Buff Scrolls and Slot adverts included? For one single reason, they are basically a token to be exchanged with the boxter. That is the real purpose for their inclusion.

If Gravity wanted to ensure that the luckybox system was never viewed as gambling (and can't be bothered to come up with more prizes like the 99 mercs) then they should use 300kp of random Kafra consumables (3 reset stones, 300kp worth of gwing and so on). If they did this, then there would be no argument on the subject.


This is the correct answer lol. Good post. :thumb:

I dislike the crap in the boxes. That being said I still buy them. ;)
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#174 mikeberserkr

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:56 AM

i never thought there was a fishing mini-game! more content to explore :thumb:

i hope the dont remove the hugel miningames.. (like they did with izlude arena and aldebaran turbo track ;) )
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#175 Heimdallr

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:13 PM

You're both right. It kind of makes me sick to see the game end up like this.
I thoroughly enjoyed the game for years and I do still visit the forums hoping that things will get back on track.
Unfortunately I don't that that's gonna happen and things like the backpack set a standard even for new players where they feel they either have to buy zeny through China farmers or sell wpe just to keep up.
It can be done through hard work, but it usually takes someone familiar with the game to make zeny quickly and efficiently.
It's getting hard to even do that now since Heim insists on killing the markets.

I was reading the California gambling laws earlier today and I'm 99% sure that the lucky boxes violate a couple of them.
I'm going to do more research and make sure I'm 100% right and then do a write up to the governor. I think it's disgusting that Gravity cares more about money than about the players. We all know the money isn't invested into improving the game.
Half of the ideas here come from players and even then they are sloppily implemented.


Actually there are no stipulations that we couldn't do gambling in the game, but we decided to be more Clean and went one step further.

Every item in the box has a value over the points you spent, it isn't gambling when you win every time.
Name 1 item that has ever been under the value of your box purchase? And show me where it could be acquired legitimately for less? We have since day 1 adhered very closely to this exactly because it is NOT gambling it is varying degrees of winning. If you want gambling try some other RO versions where your $5 or more dollars could get you an item that is worth pennies, super profitable but ethically (and likely legally) shady here in the USA. Also threats of a legal nature here on the forums are not allowed, for one as soon as that line is crossed we have to immediately block off all contact with you until our lawyers start talking with yours, we wouldn't be able to allow you access to the service for which you are disputing during that time either. So lets keep this a discussion only on whether you think it is really gambling or just an optional means to expand your fun.


And myzery I'm installing a ratio rule for your posts. Every post I see of yours is "crapping on RO" or "Crapping on the people working on RO" and it detracts from everything, and I think the world here would be better off without those comments. So please moderate your comments, or I will.
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