16 replies to this topic

[HealingPalms]

Just wondering how it works as it always seems that other dieters cast it over my mob and genetic and never on their own which kinda annoys me lol.

[NeoNilox]

I'm not sure if this is a right explanation, but from what I've seen so far, it's an AoE Ground Skill that leaves a blood-red area where any foe takes damage when going through it. Due to its nature, it's quite prone to accident KS.

[HealingPalms]

Oh i get the point that sometimes it will ks which isn't a problem it's more that it seem like they cast it everywhere but over there own genetic so they kill your stuff and then come back to their own.

[DrAzzy]

It will cast it wherever the monsters it's fighting are, at least with my AI.

Creating a way to not use it around other players, is not straightforward - honestly, I don't know how I'd do it without crippling the effectiveness of the skill. With poison mist, in 1.50 i'll have an option to use it like a buff, and always cast it on the owner, but I don't think that behavior would be desirable for lava slide, because with lava slide, you only get 5 hit,s so you want to put it down when you can nail more than 5 monsters with the initial cast.

Maybe with the advanced AoE targeting system it'll be possible to make it so it will try to avoid putting it right on top of other people... but if it's fighting stuff right next to them, even that's a tall order, unless we compromise the effectiveness of the AI (and experience has shown that compromising effectiveness for politeness is considered undesirable by users).

Edited by DrAzzy, 15 April 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[NeoNilox]

I don't know how it exactly behaves in your AI Doc, but in my hack I set another behavior with Ground Skills... at least that setting saved my... yeah, several times. I only tried this behavior with Xeno Slasher 2 though, since I have no access to other homunculi S at all:

When chasing, if me or my Eira have x or higher amount of enemies around (surround range is AoE based), casts the Ground Skill under me or my Eira, depending on the situation (prone to accident KS if someone is close to one of us). If nothing of that happens, checks if the enemy she's chasing has x or higher amount of monsters, and her foe is non-aggro or immobile (it's less likely to move, unlike the aggro ones), in such case the Ground Skill is casted. This checking is done prior to use Long Range Attack Skills (LRAS in MirAI), and as long as there're Ground Skills set.

When attacking, it does the same check than while chasing but without the "passive foe" part because she's already attacking her foe.

I don't know how useful has been this thing ".

[Realus]

@ Ontopic
I think just watch it some more.
On default settings for Azzi AI I'm sure it will drop Lava Slides on you. As long as the required monsters are also on you.
It's just that with wandering homunc; it is more likely that they wander to another location before "encountering" a mob; so they use it away from you.

@ Offtopic

Creating a way to not use it around other players, is not straightforward - honestly, I don't know how I'd do it without crippling the effectiveness of the skill. With poison mist, in 1.50 i'll have an option to use it like a buff, and always cast it on the owner, but I don't think that behavior would be desirable for lava slide, because with lava slide, you only get 5 hit,s so you want to put it down when you can nail more than 5 monsters with the initial cast.

If it isn't too difficult to do, would you be able to have this behavior in 1.50 though?
Just make it default so it doesn't do this; that way the people who do want this behavior can just easily switch it on.

Honestly in OD2 I don't think it's that crippling. (I'd think TI Surface / Ein 5 wouldn't be either. Amatsu it might because of the firelocks)
Orc Archers will survive, that's a given. However Zenorcs/Steel Chonchons will flock to you (Since you are the center of the AoE); and Orc Skels and Drainliars will go to you cause they are aggro.
The loot keeps appearing near you, and it keeps fueling this killing cycle.

Not to mention if it upkeeps it instead of casting when there's a mob, It'll run back to the alchemist when the duration wears off to recast it (Dragging monsters that he had on him to the Alchemist, for the loot pile to upkeep)
Otherwise, if it is a Vani-Dieter; It can always just Caprice things into the Lava Slide. (Then, the loot appears and all run into it.)

Of course; the main reasons I want it are:
- Unless an archer pokes me from max range, for quite a while; a completely ungeared alt can survive no problem with a 100% Lava Field Protection IMO.
- So I can park it 8 cells or so away from everyone; and it won't KS any of them. I think currently the number of people who "threatened" my friend's dieter to "report" because of "KSing" is 4. So that alone tells me that others are upset at the thing dropping Lava Slides on others. And I wouldn't want to be part of that bunch if I could help it.

So please; consider having the option there (unless it'll take a long time to code); Just make it default to the "optimal" function for the majority who want it that way.

[DrAzzy]

Fine, will add a feature to make it use lava slide on owner as a buff like poison mist, so you get lower exp rates.

Edited by DrAzzy, 15 April 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[Hinkypunk]

The problem isn't so much auto-LS as it is poor positioning on the part of the Dieter owner. Sometimes this is accidental--i.e. the handful of Auto-Tele Genetics floating about OD2 on Ymir-- but quite often it's just 'rude' strategy for some players to purposely position themselves so that their Dieter casts LS on nearby non-AoE homunculi.

I do think having the option to LS only on yourself is nice to have; unfortunately, it's probably not an option that is going to be embraced by very many.

Edited by Hinkypunk, 15 April 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[BrunoFerreira]

Fine, will add a feature to make it use lava slide on owner as a buff like poison mist, so you get lower exp rates.

Actually, at least in OD2, I'm pretty sure that Realus' strategy would actually improve the EXP gained: my EXP gain is usually much better there when I enable DoNotChase, which sticks my Dieter next to me and, by consequence, makes his Lava Slide always fall somewhere close to my feet.

It's only a problem when Orc Archers show up out of the range of my Caprice, but I'm usually not 100% AFK when I try this strategy. It would probably work like a charm in a map without ranged monsters and with a constant spawn of looter monsters. Turtle Island, anyone?

Edited by BrunoFerreira, 15 April 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[DrAzzy]

That's true - it could be more useful on maps with a lower concentration of monsters, serving the role that poison misting the owner would. Sorry for the tone of the earlier post, wasn't in the best mood.

[NeoNilox]

I still think that the Dieter should cast it...

• Under its owner, when he/she has x or higher amount of enemies around the owner. (may save deaths)
• Under itself, if it has x or higher amount of enemies around itself.
• Under the enemy it's chasing, as long as the foe is passive/immobile.

If the Dieter kills any foe, it leave its drops, and there're many Zenorcs/Steel Chonchons around, they would pick the drops like crazy around the Dieter, so it'll have several enemies around the homun (hopely x or higher), so there can be the right time to cast it. This also applies when the foes are 'Passive & Assist'.

This is the way I use in my AI Hack (Xeno Slasher 2 only), it saved my life several times while it improved the EXP/hour (opinions may vary).

[lainee]

It's only a problem when Orc Archers show up out of the range of my Caprice

If everybody set their AI while afking to FFA the orc archers in OD2 it really would be a win/win situation and such things would never be an issue.

[Tetsamaru]

If everybody set their AI while afking to FFA the orc archers in OD2 it really would be a win/win situation and such things would never be an issue.

Honestly that's what I do. FFA on Archers. I have never once got a complaint and in fact, I was thanked for saving an Alchemist on the verge of death when he happend to have 2 archers blasting away at him. Now how's that for bad luck with random spawning?

[DrAzzy]

That was less fun to add than I expected, as I was out of buff types for dieters. Now poison mist and lava slide have their own buff routine. Will also support buff priority system now too.

Also added feature to reserve enough SP to cast your antimob skill, so you can have it not end up locked in the caprice dungeon, bogged down in monsters that it's too busy capricing to regen enough sp to lavaslide, and the closely related situation of wasting skill casts and SP sniping when you already have a big mob on you, and are hence never able to get enough SP / not-in-delayness to cast your lavaslide.

Edited by DrAzzy, 16 April 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[Mutatis]

so i have a question i hope someone can answer. If lava slide can one shot the monsters and there are more then 5 will it only kill 5 then have to be recast?

[DrAzzy]

so i have a question i hope someone can answer. If lava slide can one shot the monsters and there are more then 5 will it only kill 5 then have to be recast?

Depends on the situation:

If you put it down ontop of a group of monsters, it will hit all of them, and then vanish if there were 5 or more (in this way you can hit more than 5 targets).

If you put it down ontop of less than 5 monsters, it will hit those, and then vanish after the 5th monster blunders into it.

The AI cannot detect when it has been used up - currently we try to use it again after 7.5 seconds (half of that being cast time, approximately) which works pretty well. Not sure how often i'll have it recast for owner buff mode yet.

[Mutatis]

thanks for the answer doc. and i've said it before and i'll say it again, i love being a turtle... oh wait... flashback there for some reason.. what i meant was thanks for all the hard work on the ai. it just keeps getting better and better. keep up the great work. (hope at least one person laughed or smiled at the tmnt reference)