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#1 Ultimate

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:33 PM

You would have to be-_- insane to try upgrading once this hits CS:

+9 to +10 10% (as before)
+10 to +11 (10%)
+11 to +12 (impossible)

First of all there is a chance to fail and lose the entire item, and secondly it goes all the way back down to +7 if it doesn't break.

I used 50 HFs and 20 Valk Armors:
- 4 +11 HFs
- 1 +11 Valk Armor

- 21 HFs broke
- 9 Valk Armors broke

Nothing went to +12, but down to +8 instead.

I thought the safety net was 100% and brought it down 1 level if it failed, apparently not.

The chances are utterly impossible. It's almost ridiculously hard to get a +10, and then basically everything after +10 is 5~10% chance of working...


Please post your findings :*(
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#2 Hrothmund

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:40 PM

Was about to post a similar thread, with similar results lol. Anyway i used black leather boots.

50 attempts:
4/50 +11
10/50 broke completely
36/50 dropped +10 to +7

Keep in mind the different in cost between +7 and +10 is so huge (~100m compared to 10bil) it really doesnt make a difference if the upgrade fails or breaks. replacing a 10bil item with one worth 100m i'd be tempted to just NPC the +7.

For fun:
cost to fail 50 +10 upgrades: (50x 10bil) - (50x 100m) = 495bil
cost to break 50 +10 upgrades: 500bil.

Big woopie, your *luck* saved you 1% of your investment.

+11 3 attempts (since i want to keep something lol)
1/3 broke
2/3 +8

Keep in mind the above comment. There is *almost* no difference between failing and breaking, cost-wise, in the long run.

It reminds me a lot of Rising Force Online, the upgrade system was so punishing it was basically impossible. Then they implemented "lucky boxes" at $7 a pop that has a (very small) chance to give you an upgrader that was 100% set the items refine level to 15-20 (chosen at random). I pray RO doesnt do the same.

Edited by Hrothmund, 17 September 2010 - 06:43 PM.

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#3 Seraphiel

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 01:41 AM

So I was upgrading items, and the refine rate seems too low, it feels so bad. Most items are going back to +7; you can count them as broken on a normal server since you won't be able to get it back to +10 with regular ori/elu; some items disappeared, yeah. It is nearly impossible to get +13 with current rates, we can do this on the test server because we can buy as many items as we want; however, it still takes forever, and I can't imagine it on a regular server, /dum
The refine rates should be much higher and more linear. Make refining to +10 easier, something like:

Armors

+1 -> +4 100%
+4 -> +5 80%
+5 -> +6 70%
+6 -> +7 70%
+7 -> +8 60%
+8 -> +9 60%
+9 -> +10 50%
+10 -> +11 40%
+11 -> +12 40%
+12 -> +13 30%
+13 -> +14 30%
+14 -> +15 20%
+15 -> +16 20%
+16 -> +17 20%
+18 -> +19 10%
+19 -> +20 10%

Weapon lv.1

+1 -> +7 100%
+7 -> +8 80%
+8 -> +9 75%
+9 -> +10 70%
+10 -> +11 65%
+11 -> +12 60%
+12 -> +13 55%
+13 -> +14 50%
+14 -> +15 45%
+15 -> +16 40%
+16 -> +17 35%
+18 -> +19 30%
+19 -> +20 25%

Weapon lv.2

+1 -> +6 100%
+6 -> +7 80%
+7 -> +8 75%
+8 -> +9 70%
+9 -> +10 65%
+10 -> +11 60%
+11 -> +12 55%
+12 -> +13 50%
+13 -> +14 45%
+14 -> +15 40%
+15 -> +16 35%
+16 -> +17 30%
+18 -> +19 25%
+19 -> +20 20%

Weapon lv.3

+1 -> +5 100%
+5 -> +6 80%
+6 -> +7 75%
+7 -> +8 70%
+8 -> +9 65%
+9 -> +10 60%
+10 -> +11 55%
+11 -> +12 50%
+12 -> +13 45%
+13 -> +14 40%
+14 -> +15 35%
+15 -> +16 30%
+16 -> +17 25%
+18 -> +19 20%
+19 -> +20 15%

Weapon lv.4

+1 -> +4 100%
+4 -> +5 75%
+5 -> +6 70%
+6 -> +7 65%
+7 -> +8 60%
+8 -> +9 55%
+9 -> +10 50%
+10 -> +11 45%
+11 -> +12 40%
+12 -> +13 35%
+13 -> +14 30%
+14 -> +15 25%
+15 -> +16 20%
+16 -> +17 15%
+18 -> +19 10%
+19 -> +20 10%

It's just an example. kRO devs are crazy people, really...

Edited by Seraphiel, 18 September 2010 - 01:46 AM.

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#4 Brindizer

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 05:39 AM

I agree with this -- especially since we're on the premium server. We were supposed to have an advantage being able to safely get our gear to +4, but now that hardly means anything in the grand scheme of things.
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#5 KriztanAlizun

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 05:48 AM

I have a question....


On the ygg server we can upgrade to +0 to +10 with ease but any further it's terrible.

Is that how it's going to be implemented when Renewal is finalized on iRO?
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#6 Hrothmund

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 06:15 AM

There will be new ori/elu kafra items i think to make getting to +10 easier.
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#7 shilin

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 06:36 AM

I think the point is for them to be difficult because +10 is about the threshold where if you go past it, a regular item will begin to have better defense than a god item
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#8 Hrothmund

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 06:45 AM

I think the only things that would be worthwhile going beyond +10 are KVM weapons since most of the other ones with over-up benefits cap at +10 anyway.

Even then though, I still think 95% of people will stop at +9.

10% chance to get +10, followed by 10% then 10% etc. so getting from +9 to +12 is 1/1000 chance. keep adding a zero for each upgrade and OoOo we get 1/100,000,000,000 chance to get +20. neat, anyone got 100 billion +9 kvm weapons?
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#9 KriztanAlizun

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 06:50 AM

I think the only things that would be worthwhile going beyond +10 are KVM weapons since most of the other ones with over-up benefits cap at +10 anyway.

Even then though, I still think 95% of people will stop at +9.

10% chance to get +10, followed by 10% then 10% etc. so getting from +9 to +12 is 1/1000 chance. keep adding a zero for each upgrade and OoOo we get 1/100,000,000,000 chance to get +20. neat, anyone got 100 billion +9 kvm weapons?


Yikes. Math.
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#10 Puppet

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 07:30 AM

I see them raping us with some karfa item to increase our rates ever so slightly, and wtf I thought this new elu if it fails it goes back 1 upgrade lvl till it +6 and then they start breaking again
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#11 Doddler

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 07:52 AM

I see them raping us with some karfa item to increase our rates ever so slightly, and wtf I thought this new elu if it fails it goes back 1 upgrade lvl till it +6 and then they start breaking again


The new Kafra Shop Elu does that. :wah:
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#12 Seraphiel

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 08:27 AM

And what if we left refining to +10 as it is now but once you had this +10, it would be indestructible in the matter of refining; if you fail going from +10 ~ +20, you just lose money and bradiums. The success rate can be set to something like 5%, and cost xxx,000z + x Bradiums per try. It would still be extremely difficult to get an item to +13 and higher, but it would actually be possible... What is more, large amounts of zeny would sank away.

Edited by Seraphiel, 18 September 2010 - 08:28 AM.

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#13 TheGuindo

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 08:54 AM

Agreed that if you actually make it to +10, that should become the new lower bar. Instead of destroying gear, drop it one upgrade level, and make it impossible to drop below +10. Maybe break it (not destroy it) when failing to go past +10 (or maybe just from +10 -> +11, so you are still penalized for failure somehow even at the lower bar), and set the repair cost for > +9 gear fairly high to serve as further deterrent/money sink.
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#14 Ultimate

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:29 AM

All of this. Three great proposals being: make it two or three times more expensive to try to upgrade but make it not break or lose a level, or make it go down 1 level in a failure and make +4-+10 far, far easier.
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#15 Valadez

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:05 PM

I managed to get a +12 Katar of Raging Blaze from 10. Can't remember the exact numbers but I found that I was mostly having my gear lowered 3 refine levels rather than broken.

Also I don't think people are expected to EVER get a +20 item. but it does give those really crazy people something to constantly strive for.
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#16 Ghost007

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 02:36 AM

Someone will make a +20 Knife[3] on the real servers, mark my words.
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#17 Hrothmund

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 03:47 AM

It'd take approximately a decades worth of Ori from an entire servers output to make a +20, barring freak luck. I think that might be on the conservative side too.

I'm not kidding.
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#18 Sera

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 11:44 AM

Pre-Renewal, this would have been great for Staff of Destruction and Piercing Staves.
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#19 GuardianTK

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 11:50 AM

Genius zeny sink anyone?
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#20 Doddler

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:17 PM

Lets presume for a moment that the current rates are as follows.
100/100/100/100/60/60/40/20/20/10 to plus 10, 10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10 to plus 20 (numbers represent % rates).

We can do the math, the average number of gears required to upgrade in order to obtain a specific upgrade rate. For the purpose of this experiment I'm going to presume that stuff just breaks.

+1: 1
+2: 1
+3: 1
+4: 1
+5: 1.6
+6: 2.8
+7: 7
+8: 35
+9: 173
+10: 1,736
+11: 17,360
+12: 173,600
+13: 1,736,000
+14: 17,360,000
+15: 173,600,000
+16: 1,736,000,000
+17: 17,360,000,000
+18: 173,600,000,000
+19: 1,736,000,000,000
+20: 17,360,000,000,000

I have a feeling that they haven't thought this whole system through.

Edited by Doddler, 20 September 2010 - 12:17 PM.

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#21 Hrothmund

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 02:52 PM

What I can see happening eventually is a "safe" kafra shop upgrade item. It has the same success rate as regular upgrading but if you fail nothing happens, like the slot coupons.

Thats about the only thing that can make that system even remotely feasable for +20 gear.
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#22 Pepperoncini

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 03:07 PM

Not if you would need 17 trillion attempts.
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#23 Hrothmund

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 03:48 PM

Thats only if you fail and have to work your way back up. If its "safe" it only takes 10 attempts additively each level rather than multiplying so it'd be like 200 attempts from +10 to +20. Still a lot of kafra ore but i'd definitely see people doing this.
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#24 Wazza

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 05:21 PM

Lets presume for a moment that the current rates are as follows.
100/100/100/100/60/60/40/20/20/10 to plus 10, 10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10 to plus 20 (numbers represent % rates).

We can do the math, the average number of gears required to upgrade in order to obtain a specific upgrade rate. For the purpose of this experiment I'm going to presume that stuff just breaks.

+1: 1
+2: 1
+3: 1
+4: 1
+5: 1.6
+6: 2.8
+7: 7
+8: 35
+9: 173
+10: 1,736
+11: 17,360
+12: 173,600
+13: 1,736,000
+14: 17,360,000
+15: 173,600,000
+16: 1,736,000,000
+17: 17,360,000,000
+18: 173,600,000,000
+19: 1,736,000,000,000
+20: 17,360,000,000,000

I have a feeling that they haven't thought this whole system through.


I think it more likely they decide to hawk us with a "Dragonica" and sell us upgrade insurances instead for $1. Of course you will need 100 Insurances on average to get to +20 from +10 for a very small boost on armor or a sizeable one on weapon.

That or... Maybe they really haven't thought this through. But the way this system seems to have been put together, I suspect it was designed with some form of cash shop implementation in mind.

Edited by Wazza, 21 September 2010 - 05:24 PM.

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#25 Heimdallr

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 06:57 PM

The rates past 10 are not that abysmal, they are harsh, but yes there is a system coming in that will "insure" to keep breaks from happening. The upgrade rate is always touchy, we've gone on and on about it to the devs but other versions like it the way it is..
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