27 replies to this topic

[Kadelia]

Since Gravity seems to believe the lost HP ratio to damage dealt is fair on the grounds that it "creates a risk to the Sura" I propose we truly make it a risk to the sura, for the pro players.

Option A

When under the influence of the [Rising Dragon] status, the following options are now enabled:

• The target is now ineligible for the crusader skill [Sacrifice]
• The target can no longer regain HP/SP via items (same as cooldown after gfist)

Option B

• When casting the [Gates of Hell] skill, [Rising Dragon] Status is cancelled.

Option C

• Gates of Hell has its skill-specific cooldown increased to 4 seconds.

Edited by Jaye, 09 June 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[CeruleanGamer]

Add 2 second FIXED cast time.

GOOD FREAKING GAME.

Edited by CeruleanGamer, 09 June 2012 - 06:17 AM.

[Tyrael]

Option A

When under the influence of the [Rising Dragon] status, the following options are now enabled:

• The target is now ineligible for the crusader skill [Sacrifice]
• The target can no longer regain HP/SP via items (same as cooldown after gfist)

Option B

• When casting the [Gates of Hell] skill, [Rising Dragon] Status is cancelled.

How about instead just the HP portion. GoH isn't GFist and shouldn't treated as such. It should be spammable because without it we resort to a 10k knuckle arrow or GFist instead.

[Dinosexy]

Tyrael is right, without the ability to spam it GoH is just a weaker gfist, which would make it fairly redundant.

I'd say teamed up with sac is the only situation in which hell gate is OP. Otherwise gravity is right in calling it high risk-high reward, but why is it okay to assume every sura has a sac RG up their ass meanwhile no other class is capable of teaming up with a sorc/chaser to dispell/divest the RG?

[Kadelia]

With option A it can be done 3 times consecutively then they need to retreat for a little while (10 second or so, same as gfist)

With option B, you can use regular fury to do it after every zen (presents a small delay to give people time to pot)

Either way the skill being spammed consecutively, especially with strings, is incredibly unbalanced as nobody can withstand it. And countermeasures to it (such as pneuma or hide) are easily circumvented by sura class due to cursed circle and gfist as an alternate attack.

sac + goh is low risk high reward. It needs to be nerfed.

With either option presented above the rate of fire on GoH is downwardly adjusted and it is still situationally different to Gfist in PVP/WoE. If someone safety walls, you GoH. If they Pneuma, you Gfist. You can spring either one from rising dragon. Additionally, GoH has range, unlike gfist, so it has tactical advantages. It is a 1 shot KO on most classes from greater range with less risk to the sura due to the range-- and can be fired in succession, which creates a "clear the room" situation unlike gfist. It needs its rate of fire downwardly adusted.

Option C

• Gates of Hell has its skill-specific cooldown increased to 4 seconds.

Edited by Jaye, 09 June 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[Tyrael]

With option A it can be done 3 times consecutively then they need to retreat for a little while (10 second or so, same as gfist)

With option B, you can use regular fury to do it after every zen (presents a small delay to give people time to pot)

Either way the skill being spammed consecutively, especially with strings, is incredibly unbalanced as nobody can withstand it. And countermeasures to it (such as pneuma or hide) are easily circumvented by sura class due to cursed circle and gfist as an alternate attack.

sac + goh is low risk high reward. It needs to be nerfed.

With either option presented above the rate of fire on GoH is downwardly adjusted and it is still situationally different to Gfist in PVP/WoE. If someone safety walls, you GoH. If they Pneuma, you Gfist. You can spring either one from rising dragon. Additionally, GoH has range, unlike gfist, so it has tactical advantages. It is a 1 shot KO on most classes from greater range with less risk to the sura due to the range-- and can be fired in succession, which creates a "clear the room" situation unlike gfist. It needs its rate of fire downwardly adusted.

Option C

• Gates of Hell has its skill-specific cooldown increased to 4 seconds.

This is also incorrect. GoH is ranged at lvl 5+ and melee at lvl 4 and under.
Goh does considerably simar damage to Arrow storm in PvP and even less in PvM. It needs no nerf as it's not an AoE and is still survivable by anyone wearing a GR and DR (even more so in a WoE situation as opposed to pvp).
It is also forced neutral damage and while the static damage is endowable, the major portion is not.

GoH in a pvm sense would also suffer miserably and be near useless for mvping, high hp monster killing. As of now it barely reaches damages that Acid bomb is capable of producing and that's only when the sura is in strings/gk. Nerfing the skill only makes this less possible and therefore even more pointless of a skill to have for pvm.

Because you got GoHd by someone with a +12 KvM fist and just as easy coulda been using Meg's doesn't give anyone a reason to QQ about its damage. It does what it was intended to do which is give a Sura an alternate solution to GFist spam in pvp.

[Kadelia]

This is also incorrect. GoH is ranged at lvl 5+ and melee at lvl 4 and under.
Goh does considerably simar damage to Arrow storm in PvP

LOL sorry I couldn't see straight after laughing/crying reading this.

Arrow Storm does like 22k in PVP and and GoH does about 70k~80. Without megs. FYI GoH does +50% against someone wearing a DR if you use a converter.

Edited by Jaye, 10 June 2012 - 01:00 PM.

[asayuu]

This is also incorrect. GoH is ranged at lvl 5+ and melee at lvl 4 and under.
Goh does considerably simar damage to Arrow storm in PvP and even less in PvM. It needs no nerf as it's not an AoE and is still survivable by anyone wearing a GR and DR (even more so in a WoE situation as opposed to pvp).
It is also forced neutral damage and while the static damage is endowable, the major portion is not.

GoH in a pvm sense would also suffer miserably and be near useless for mvping, high hp monster killing. As of now it barely reaches damages that Acid bomb is capable of producing and that's only when the sura is in strings/gk. Nerfing the skill only makes this less possible and therefore even more pointless of a skill to have for pvm.

Because you got GoHd by someone with a +12 KvM fist and just as easy coulda been using Meg's doesn't give anyone a reason to QQ about its damage. It does what it was intended to do which is give a Sura an alternate solution to GFist spam in pvp.

You just forgot to say that "non-endowable part" ignores reductions. If it did not ignored [and if it was truly forced neutral], would work well and nobody would complain about the high damage.

A suggestion I could give is making GoH ranged on all levels. This thing of "melee goh" is stupid, Gfist is there for that.

Also, add a decent cast time and a delay, making harder for string abuse.

[Tyrael]

LOL sorry I couldn't see straight after laughing/crying reading this.

Arrow Storm does like 22k in PVP and and GoH does about 70k~80. Without megs. FYI GoH does +50% against someone wearing a DR if you use a converter.

Arrow storm does around 16 k a tick x3 to my sura (with +12 CEB and +12 cranial immune). It is also endowable which means anyone wearing a DR also takes +50% more Dmg from it.

As far as WoE goes it does maybe 20k with an elven bow but the bow is also 30mil or less where as a KvM fist is 2000 KvM badges and isn't even worth using until +9 or better. Big difference in obtainability there. Also your not considering all the rangers that have the new Big Crossbow to +12. So far I've seen AS hit up to 170k in pvm and 60k AS in WoE after demihuman reductions. It's also AoE so before you start laughing do some research to get your facts straight.

[Kadelia]

if you are taking 45k from arrow storm it might be time to re-evaluate your gear.. because it only does ~20k vs a glorious set+cranial+cat beret.

If that person is using a memory of thanatos card to do that damage that is possible but that also invalidates your argument.

Edited by Jaye, 10 June 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[Riakuta]

Hmm my idea of balance is to make Gates of Hell Neutral and change it up so that the lesser portion of the damage is based on health and the majority of the damage is based on the elemental damage.

[DeltaRay]

lol... make it so cranial works instant balance lol

[gerpogi]

goh isnt that much of a prob..maybe make it forced neutral or something..but whats op..is SNAP!!!*rage*

[kasshin]

Alternative = recruit suras for your own guild. Fight fire with fire.

[Kadelia]

yeash we should delete all class except sura and just play suras in woe because rather than balance a class that is better than the rest we should just play it. the jobtree system is actually just there to troll people

[Tyrael]

yeash we should delete all class except sura and just play suras in woe because rather than balance a class that is better than the rest we should just play it. the jobtree system is actually just there to troll people

Where do you get your dillusions that Suras are better than every other class? They just handle the pvp aspect of the game because their skills fit the situations met in pvp/woe better than most. It doesn't make them unbalanced, it just makes them naturally geared better in woe/pvp than some of the other classes. It's still stupidly easy to stop a Sura. RG and Sorc handle them with 2 single skills just fine (guard and dispell).

When was the last time you saw a Sura kill a Ghost MvP? Suras used to be the best MvP class but with the 10second GFist nerf Acid Bomb is capable of much more dps than GFist. There's nothing unbalanced about Sura unless your saying that Acid Bomb is OP for MvPing and Arrow Storm is OP for pvm.

Edited by Tyrael, 11 June 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Riakuta]

Where do you get your dillusions that Suras are better than every other class? They just handle the pvp aspect of the game because their skills fit the situations met in pvp/woe better than most. It doesn't make them unbalanced, it just makes them naturally geared better in woe/pvp than some of the other classes. It's still stupidly easy to stop a Sura. RG and Sorc handle them with 2 single skills just fine (guard and dispell).

When was the last time you saw a Sura kill a Ghost MvP? Suras used to be the best MvP class but with the 10second GFist nerf Acid Bomb is capable of much more dps than GFist. There's nothing unbalanced about Sura unless your saying that Acid Bomb is OP for MvPing and Arrow Storm is OP for pvm.

I'd love to see the day Dispell actually effects a Sura!

[Kadelia]

oh yeah you have a point because a lexed 1m damage gfist on all except 3 of the game's mvp is definitely not a top tier mvp character. I agree, a 30% chance to not die on one class is definitely balanced because sura only has a 30% chance to kill 1 class back instead of a surefire chance to kill 16 or so classes in 1 shot or anything like that. ty for bringing legit info to the table ty you are the best

Edited by Jaye, 11 June 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[Dinosexy]

I'd love to see the day Dispell actually effects a Sura!

I've seen it work
you're not using level 1 are you?

Theres also millenium shield, death bound, soul siphon, diamond dust, manhole, shadow form, ignorance, oblivion curse, white imprison and howling for stopping a sura on the loose

[Tyrael]

oh yeah you have a point because a lexed 1m damage gfist on all except 3 of the game's mvp is definitely not a top tier mvp character. I agree, a 30% chance to not die on one class is definitely balanced because sura only has a 30% chance to kill 1 class back instead of a surefire chance to kill 16 or so classes in 1 shot or anything like that. ty for bringing legit info to the table ty you are the best

I've seen bombers hit for 300k unlexed on mvps with AB. You can cast 5 bombs in the time it takes to cast one GFist, up to 8 by the time the bishop casts lex, suff, impositio, to prep for the next GFist. While Suras are still second best MvPers your OT considering the drawbacks of using GFist over Bombs which have no drawback aside from a reasonably small difference in cost between bombs prices vs ygg berries.

And I don't know what horrid RGs you've seen GoHd but with defending aura they take less than 10k from lv 5 or higher and like 15k from lvl 4 or lower assuming the sura isnt god geared. It takes 3 GoH in pvp to kill a RG with lvl 4 (obviously you won't use lvl 5+) and like 8 in woe (so stupidly easy to outpot).

You also forget all of those classes will likely be in Sacrifice which gain the benefits of guard and shield reflect, and defending aura rendering the Sura useless unless he can manage to take down the RG first (unlikely with other classes attacking the sura as well).

I will agree that they are a pain in the ass to catch when thy utilize snap. This last Saturday's WoE I managed to survive against 10+ members from OmegaCore snapping around their guard stone room casting GoH and GFist on the players and the stone. It worked well but I nearly was 1 Shot with one RGs non-god geared holy endowed exceed break. I'm sure he was using a +12 or better glorious but that is some monstrous damage (part of the extra Dmg was from my wearing my DR (needed it to survive getting Gfisted and GoHd by the other 2 Sura from Omega) so that sucked but still without my Nid on I was taking 35k+ Dmg from a single hit.

This is also not including that without FCP constantly stacked on me my gear was being shattered by pinpoint.

Edited by Tyrael, 11 June 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Kadelia]

I've seen it work
you're not using level 1 are you?

Theres also millenium shield, death bound, soul siphon, diamond dust, manhole, shadow form, ignorance, oblivion curse, white imprison and howling for stopping a sura on the loose

Sweet those things stop me too but I don't 1 shot 3 people in a row and pneuma myself and solo almost every mvp in the game and tank better than the ebst geared person naked with mental strength. + imagine a snap reference somewhere.

What is your point? I don't think you have one.

also I think Riakuta is referring to the fact that if you dispell or steal spheres etc after they start casting the gfist or goh it still happens.

@ ty: tl; dr. Though the last sentence which I did read you can just read my response to dinosexy and pretty much same story. QQ pinpoint breaks your . It breaks mine too and I don't have the firepower, defense, mobility, or versatility of a sura. Sura is overpowered. Save your horrible logic for someone who falls for that.

Not a single person made a thread stating Sura's cannot be killed. Listing ways to kill or disabed them is MEANINGLESS as WEAKER CLASSES ARE DISABLED AND KILLED TOO. HORRRIBLE logic on your side of the table.

I need a sura to patiently stand around for like 3 seconds (and not snap away since I can't keep them in place with thorn trap or thorn wall when they have snap) while I use sacrament+magic strings to bomb them to death, or I need magic strings and dex+20 food to try and hell plant them to death (again they need to patiently wait for me to kill them) while all it takes a sura to kill me is for me to flucking blink or have my eyes on a different enemy for a fraction of a second while they snap in, goh and 1 shot KO me. How the fluck is that balanced? I must have some ungodly support ability way above and beyond theirs right? Oh no, wait, they have cursed circle which is no less useful than my howling. The class needs to be re-adjusted. 1 shot KOing people with a ranged skill that can be used in rapid succession is NOT balanced. This is not counterstrike, its an RPG. 1 shot KOs should not exist.

Edited by Jaye, 11 June 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[Riakuta]

Sweet those things stop me too but I don't 1 shot 3 people in a row and pneuma myself and solo almost every mvp in the game and tank better than the ebst geared person naked with mental strength. + imagine a snap reference somewhere.

What is your point? I don't think you have one.

also I think Riakuta is referring to the fact that if you dispell or steal spheres etc after they start casting the gfist or goh it still happens.

You can cast GoH and Gfist even after being Dispelled as Dispell does not remove Fury Status from Rising Dragon. It helps when Rising Dragon is on cooldown, but other than that it will not prevent a Sura from casting skills.

[Tyrael]

@ty: tl; dr. Though the last sentence which I did read you can just read my response to dinosexy and pretty much same story. QQ pinpoint breaks your . It breaks mine too and I don't have the firepower, defense, mobility, or versatility of a sura. Sura is overpowered. Save your horrible logic for someone who falls for that.

Not a single person made a thread stating Sura's cannot be killed. Listing ways to kill or disabed them is MEANINGLESS as WEAKER CLASSES ARE DISABLED AND KILLED TOO. HORRRIBLE logic on your side of the table.

I need a sura to patiently stand around for like 3 seconds (and not snap away since I can't keep them in place with thorn trap or thorn wall when they have snap) while I use sacrament+magic strings to bomb them to death, or I need magic strings and dex+20 food to try and hell plant them to death (again they need to patiently wait for me to kill them) while all it takes a sura to kill me is for me to flucking blink or have my eyes on a different enemy for a fraction of a second while they snap in, goh and 1 shot KO me. How the fluck is that balanced? I must have some ungodly support ability way above and beyond theirs right? Oh no, wait, they have cursed circle which is no less useful than my howling. The class needs to be re-adjusted. 1 shot KOing people with a ranged skill that can be used in rapid succession is NOT balanced. This is not counterstrike, its an RPG. 1 shot KOs should not exist.

Most good parties in WoE have a RG sacrificing them so this never happens. Talking about a scenario that should never happen is pointless as your comparing what a Sura can do in WoE with what any other class can do.

Sura's 1v1 better than any other class, sure. But thats what they do best. Your Genetic can just as easily stack and kill a Sura with Sacrifice on you as well as a Sura with Sacrifice on him can kill you. Your talking about what happens when you're soloing a class designed for purely 1v1 melee fights vs. every other class which is more than capable of 1v2-10 ing classes. So your argument is that a Sura shouldn't be able to do what it does best merely because you can't do it too? Ok fine, I'll roll with this. If thats the way its gonna be, Acid bomb needs a damage buff but also siphons 30% of your SP for each cast, and requires you to have (insert fury simulated skill here) status and a maximum of 3 bombs in your inventory at one time (the rest need to be pulled from cart after every 3 casts).

You're asking everyone to be equivalent to Suras in 1v1, then what is the point of the game? I say this game is designed around a system of diversity. Each class is better at specific things than every other class, and when you start making items that make your classes major skills nearly useless (Ghostring, Devilring, Immune Shield, Cat Ear Beret, Anti-Sura Gear, list goes on thanks to forced neutral) a common appearance then you can start complaining. Until then, give it a rest.

Should GoH be purely forced neutral? Sure...but so should Arrow Storm, so lets start a topic on them and make it as popular as this (even friggin Comet is Neutral).

[Tyrael]

You can cast GoH and Gfist even after being Dispelled as Dispell does not remove Fury Status from Rising Dragon. It helps when Rising Dragon is on cooldown, but other than that it will not prevent a Sura from casting skills.

Dispell removes Rising Dragon, not the Fury effect but thats besides the point. Now the Sura gets to cast 1 single GoH before having to cast Zen (interruptable) with each attempt. It also removes the elemental converters effect from GoH. Dispell is fantastic against Sura...

[kentoriyama]

How many threads are like this? How many times are people gonna cry about Sura? They're (whoever would make such changes) not gonna care. No matter how legitimate of the claim. Instead I would challenge anyone who mains a Sura to change mains, 1000:1 most wouldn't, because they're baddies.