500 replies to this topic

[Ramen]

Frankly, I think it's pretty stupid that SC is one of the few classes that has such a stupidly difficult time reaching 193 aspd, even with the help of other classes and buffs and good gear. The amount of crap you have to sacrifice to even reach 193 is insane in and of itself, especially when you compare to other classes (even some that arguably shouldn't be able to reach 193 without multiple MVP cards due to the overall nature of the class).

Anyway, why not do something like *gives 1.5% aspd for every 4 points of AGI*? I don't know what would be too much or too little, but it seems like this premise would work well without giving the flat aspd bonus.

I will say though, that I really think the headgear needs to have bonuses based on stats like the HBP due to the fact that SC has so many viable builds for PVM. Pretty much the only build I haven't tried for SC is a crit build, and I've defintely been thinking about it, just for the heck of it.

[Ebersu]

The sorcerer hat's +5 aspd bonus is pretty absurd too.

How so? Considering it's already implemented it would be wrong if we didn't get a +5 bonus for our +9. SC need it for autocast even more imo since we're more limited

Edited by Ebersu, 30 June 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[Kadelia]

How so? Considering it's already implemented it would be wrong if we didn't get a +5 bonus for our +9. SC need it for autocast even more imo since we're more limited

There is a certain term for this type of scenario, but the name of it escapes me. Where you make one small concession at a time, and it doesn't seem "too much worse" than the last one, until several concessions down the line you realize you are wayyyy ahead of any concession you would have made initially. It happens in politics a lot. Look at any gear gravity has made. Almost none of them ever grant more than +1 Aspd at one time. On a few rare occasions, it will unlock a second +1 Aspd if a condition is met, a high one at that (like +12 gear). You're jumping from "1, maybe 2" straight to "5". That is a leap even Evel Knievel wouldn't have made. And just because you make that concession once due to bad oversight of the amateur item developer does not mean standards should instantly drop that low. Because that is a very fast slope to horrible, horrible outcomes.

Edited by Jaye, 30 June 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[michaeleeli]

Exactly, but if we could have done anything about it before it happened, then of course it would've helped. But it has already happened to RO, so we can only move on with it. Regressing and limiting one hat while the others have already been released isn't fair to the hat's class, and it certainly won't stop RO from continuing to release things like this. I fully agree with you, but all I can say is, it's no use stopping it now. And also I want to point out that the purposes of these hats are to be the only equips (I hope) that provides a 'jump' to alternative builds. To make them from useless to something plausible. It isn't the same as buffing up mainstream builds.
If it helps, look at it this way; jumping from +2 aspd to +4 aspd on white wing suit is just terrible. It's exactly like what you said. But there is a difference in that and giving +4 aspd to a chaser. Even though it's a big jump, with calculations and experience, we can say that +4 aspd isn't a jump, but a fix/correction that should've been there in the beginning. There are still measurements to know we didn't do too much of a jump.

I did some calculations with gears + stat builds. I take back what I said about +4-6 aspd; the maximum flat aspd the hat should provide, if ever, is +4, considering it hard-to-achieve too. For example, at +9 the hat gives +1 aspd, and every upgrade past that gives another +1 aspd, up to +12.

Remember, these are necessary boosts for useless, unpopular builds. Even with these huge boosts, they are still miles away from mainstream builds; but at least it will be an incentive for people to work harder for alternative builds. For example the ranger hat (+% trap damage) made me decide to get good enchants on black wing sets and various other equipments; it helps it like that. +4 aspd on chaser hat doesn't automatically make every person easily achieve the best auto-spell build, but instead allows them to get better armor/weapon gears to improve themselves, instead of limiting to one kind of build.

Edited by michaeleeli, 30 June 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Ebersu]

There is a certain term for this type of scenario, but the name of it escapes me. Where you make one small concession at a time, and it doesn't seem "too much worse" than the last one, until several concessions down the line you realize you are wayyyy ahead of any concession you would have made initially. It happens in politics a lot. Look at any gear gravity has made. Almost none of them ever grant more than +1 Aspd at one time. On a few rare occasions, it will unlock a second +1 Aspd if a condition is met, a high one at that (like +12 gear). You're jumping from "1, maybe 2" straight to "5". That is a leap even Evel Knievel wouldn't have made. And just because you make that concession once due to bad oversight of the amateur item developer does not mean standards should instantly drop that low. Because that is a very fast slope to horrible, horrible outcomes.

I understand your point in that it could get out of hand, but I thought the point of these headgear were to give a big boost to unpopular builds that had much room for improvement. The Sorcerers that rely on aspd for leveling/damage are in the minority and will still be even with the new hat. With chasers, actually contrary to what I said.. it's definitely a lot more broken to give a flat aspd to characters with lower agility. I think players who are going for agility and speed should be rewarded, so even if there was a +5 aspd it should only apply to characters that invest a high amount in agility. Is that more fair? Probably something along the lines of a flat + 1 ASPD increase for every 20 points of base agility is more reasonable? That way the chasers invest in high agility like 120 agi will get the +5 aspd bonus and still be hindered in other stats. Also the more popular builds won't be able to abuse that bonus. Rather than the 120 INT requirement for a bonus the hat tentatively has now, 120 agi seems more faithful to the class.

Edited by Ebersu, 30 June 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Inubashiri]

I just wanna interject for a minute, nobody has said anything about the Ranger, Maestro and other than the previous QQ about Mech and Gene hats.

[michaeleeli]

Lol all I can say is I love the ranger hat. It does seem a HUGE boost to traps..really alot.. but no one seems to be complaining about them. (Mainly because no one has ever done that build)

Is there any way to add in so that it increases Bomb Cluster? I didn't really test Fire/Ice trap yet, but irowiki states it does fire/water damage. Even if we're buffing those up, it certainly still limits the use of those bombs on some maps. A +25% increase on Bomb Cluster perhaps can be used so they can fight against holy monsters or such. Or a +25% increase on Landmine (earth dmg) can help fight against wind monsters. If the ranger is going trap build, they should be effectively using all trap skills, since AS/auto is a no-go for choosing this route.

P.S. So do you have any ideas for the chaser hat now inu =x

Edited by michaeleeli, 30 June 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[Inubashiri]

There seems to be a lot of fodder for the chaser one, I'll have to gather it all up and just look at it closer before I decide.

[michaeleeli]

Hmmm okay. The only thing we're still somewhat discussing is the +aspd part. Well we're only left with the jaye stamp to approve it lol.

100% of the people agreed on the HBP-like bonus replacing the 120 INT part though, ever since it was mentioned in the very beginning, or at least just switch out the 120 INT part. Hopefully that'll go well xd!

[Inubashiri]

Well with respect there isn't time to entertain everyone, majority will rule.

[Kadelia]

That's actually pretty much the point of what I said. I think if you polled 6 kids and 1 adult, the overwhelming majority will be in favor of McDonald's for dinner. Just because the majority want something doesn't make it the healthy or smart choice. That's the whole point of having a project lead, or even Gravity to filter what the players ask for.

At any rate, any bonuses to the class in general (generalized things like aspd, atk, crit, etc) really should be unlocked by minimum base stats (like the HBP), because if you don't do that sort of thing, you're benefiting all builds, not just the unpopular or weak ones. And when you do that, you set yourself back at square one, because the underused builds will still be disparately weaker than the popular ones.

For example, with the ASPD, I guarantee you that you're also buffing chasers in PVP who want higher aspd to spam skills that are without cast time (masquerades, full strip, etc), since you are not requiring pure PVM stats like 120 of anything other than DEX. For example, with chasers I'd make it require +7 upgrade and 90 base AGI to get +10% aspd, +7 upgrade and 105 base AGI for +5% more aspd, and +9 upgrade and 120 AGI for +2 flat aspd increase. This ensures that WoE/PVP builds won't get much aspd out of it, and you'll have a sizeable benefit early on (when % means more than flat increases) and a huge boost for PVM-only builds. Also the 15% aspd will mean little to someone not geared for aspd, and a lot to someone who is. It specifically taylors the benefits to only benefit the shadow spell build. Another thing you want to avoid by having the stat requirements is people with PVM/WoE builds being able to level better and nearly as efficiently as someone without the specific build thanks to large bonsues without prerequisites; this again makes the pvm build pointless.

I'd even throw something in there like, "if base AGI 110 or higher, Triangle Shot Damage +25%" to encourage yet another underused PVM feature of Chaser.

Edited by Jaye, 30 June 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[michaeleeli]

Everything I've said was in terms of PvM...I was not considering the effects of it in PvP at all because I assumed these were unavailable to use in PvP. That would be a separate problem to discuss. I'd like it to not affect what we're buffing up on the hat.
But talking about technicals, whoever do have instant cast through dex/int does not have high agi/aspd. Thus giving them a bit of flat aspd is useless, compared to wearing a +12 red pom for reductions.

Also I hope you don't think I'm one of the 'kids' in the example =(, although I do understand you. I did calculations on each step of gear+stat examples which I used to back up my suggestions, instead of just blindly asking for them.

Edited by michaeleeli, 30 June 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[michaeleeli]

Inu,
I know this isn't my place to do this, but my love for shadow chaser is just too much..so if I help even a little bit by presenting the information better so you can make your decision easier, I would gladly do it =x!!

I have re-read the whole thread and posted a list of every forum member's comment on the chaser hat (so to not miss out anything).

Initial comment:
michaeleeli (Pages 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14):
1) Change the 120 base INT requirement to a HBP-like bonus, e.g. At 90 base AGI increase aspd by 1, at 90 base INT increase MATK by 20, etc.
2) Change the +9 effect into +1 aspd per upgrade until +12. Or change it to at +9 increase %MATK (so no need to +12).
3) Halve skill delays from auto-spell to allow more actions.
4) Increase resistance.
5) Buff up Invisibility, such as giving it life steal or bonus aspd/atk/matk.

xFireize (Pages 1, 2):
Fully agrees with removing 120 base INT requirement.
Idea of changing it to base AGI requirement.

Serigeese (Pages 1, 2, 3, 4):
Fully agrees with replacing 120 base INT requirement for HBP-like bonus.
Agrees with reducing skill delay from auto-spell.
Idea for increasing auto-spell proc chance.

Ramen (Pages 2, 7, 8, 12, 13, 14):
Fully agrees with replacing 120 base INT requirement for HBP-like bonus.
Agrees with extra aspd bonus.
Agrees with reducing auto-spell skill delay.
Agrees with buffing Invisibility.
Agrees with increasing auto-spell proc chance.
Idea for buffing Triangle shot damage.
Idea for buffing Fatal Menance and Feint Bomb.

asayuu (Pages 2, 3):
Fully agrees with removing 120 base INT requirement.
Idea for changing the base INT requirement to kRO's fallen angel wing-like (so base stats increase other stat points).
Idea of buffing Triangle Shot/ranged damage.
Disagrees with auto-spell increase proc chance; too complicated to code.

Eternal (Page 2):
Fully agrees with removing 120 base INT requirement.
Agrees with more bonus aspd.

Jaye (Pages 13, 14)
Disagrees with purely flat aspd, instead scale it with AGI to give +% aspd and flat aspd. E.g. 90 base agi +10% aspd, 105 base agi +5% aspd, 120 base agi +2 flat aspd.
Agrees with buffing up Triangle Shot damage.

Ebersu (Pages 13, 14)

Fully agrees with replacing 120 base INT requirement for HBP-like bonus.

Agrees with Ramen's ASPD/Stat bonuses.

I've been poking you about the shadow chaser hat throughout the past few months, but every time I'm slapped back with "It's still in discussion" or "Give me some ideas" when I did >.<. I really really really understand that there were more important things to attend to so that you may not had the time to read any of my posts, so I was always patient & checked back regularly, and whenever you said you were back in, I'd summarize the past info again, just to see you gone again =( So I hope that this list of contents can save you a bunch of your time and give you an easier time making your decision >.<!

Analysis:
I didn't miss out any information so I tried not to be biased at all, it was simply information gathering; so as you can see:
100% of the people agreed on removing the 120 base INT requirement. 99% of the people wants it to be replaced with HBP-like bonus, or at least something that is scaled with multiple stats.
The people who commented on skill delay reduction all agreed with it; although this is hard to do without over-powering other uses.
Most people who commented on the ASPD buff mostly agreed to +5 aspd; although calculations show that +3/+4 should be the maximum limit you can gain from the hat. However, there were also discussions on changing it to +% aspd instead, so that it would scale better for new players.

(Derp I had to type all this twice because I accidentally ctrl+c overed it -.-)

Edited by michaeleeli, 14 July 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Kadelia]

I edited in something while you were responding so I'll quote it.

Another thing you want to avoid by having the stat requirements is people with PVM/WoE builds being able to level better and nearly as efficiently as someone without the specific build thanks to large bonsues without prerequisites; this again makes the pvm build pointless.

And ask any WoE expert.. the pom means nothing when they are good with gear swapping. (also I feel like gravity will not make these disabled in woe due to sheer ineptitude)

nice attempt to summarize above btw.

Edited by Jaye, 30 June 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[michaeleeli]

I can actually agree with Jaye's suggestion of +10% aspd, +5% aspd, +2 flat aspd at certain points, alternatively from flat +3/4 aspd.
But usually going towards 120 of one stat is undesirable, it limits many kinds of plays, especially shadow chasers who wants to switch around once in a while. I would suggest having those bonuses coming from upgrades past +9 up to +12. Or at least have the +2 flat aspd come from 90/100/110 base agi.

This works better for less-geared players as they gain more aspd from having a low base aspd (which is somewhat the point of having these headgears). But again it's somewhat on a lowering curve of helping with shields compared to flat aspd.

Edited by michaeleeli, 30 June 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Kadelia]

Well, I left the top upgrade as +12 due to some previous aired concerns about the "cost" of being useful, so I didn't aim for +12.

As for the 120 of a stat, I think hitting the ceiling on ASPD should require 120 AGI, else there is no point to get 120 AGI, even in a PVM build. Best AGI as requirement for Best ASPD makes sense IMO.

Edited by Jaye, 30 June 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[michaeleeli]

From a PvP perspective, yes it's pretty easy to swap gears. I can see what you mean. But for those top chasers who do go instant cast where aspd matters, I don't see their aspd going anywhere above 180. Certainly 180->183 will help if you can spam your masq's fast enough (do note divests have delays on fail attempts), but it's really..not significant enough to spend a button mash to gear swap for it.
Nevertheless, if the hat CAN help pvp in unfair ways, even so tiny, it is still unfair.

Thus why I had no intention of building the hat in a way that anyone can use in PvP. I thought they're like vellum weapons/woe sets....or am I wrong? Are they now changed so that they can be used in PvP too?

WoE is another thing though. You don't have time to swap headgears for a chaser in a mid battle, unless you're the 0.1% who has super good skills with super good internet, and if we're changing it just to not let them take advantage of it, we'd have to change many other things first..

[michaeleeli]

I particularly said +12 was undesirable but not removed as an option..especially when the bonus for it was "only" +40 MATK. Getting +2 flat aspd for getting it to +12 however is much more worth than the 40 MATK.

I think best agi for best aspd should be pertained only to certain classes. For example RK's can easily achieve 193 aspd without 120 agi. Sorcerers (without the hat) could achieve 193 aspd with 100 agi (and now even lower). But for rangers or GX's to achieve 193 aspd, it is most desired to get 120 agi. Again I have to mention the difference of getting max aspd on a chaser is much different than getting max aspd on more stronger auto-atk based classes.
So there is no reason for a chaser to go 120 agi for max aspd; there is too much to sacrafice from gaining for it.

Hmmmmmmm but if these hats will forever be able to used in PvP, I can see how the high base agi requirement could prevent instant cast chasers to use it in PvP.
But just setting it as high as 100 base agi (to achieve +2 aspd) will prevent any woe/pvp build chaser to use it. It's not possible to go a good build with such a high base agi to get instant cast.

Edited by michaeleeli, 30 June 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[Kadelia]

I still think I'd rather see a stat rather than upgrade unlock the bonus. Because any rich person could give their non-shadow spell chaser good performance as a shadow speller with the right gear combined with this, which seems to miss the point of the project: making people who statted their character for Auto Shadow Spell not feel like they gimped or wasted their character.

Edited by Jaye, 30 June 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Kadelia]

So there is no reason for a chaser to go 120 agi for max aspd; there is too much to sacrafice from gaining for it.

why does that have to be true? Can't the hat make up for the lost other stats (like INT) if you go pure 120 AGI? This is all the more solidifcation that its a PVM build.

[Hat effects]
INT +5.
If refined +7 or higher and base AGI is 90 or higher, Aspd +10%, [Triangle Shot] damage +10%
If refined +7 or higher and base AGI is 105 or higher, additional Aspd +5%, [Triangle Shot] damage additional +5%
If refined +9 or higher and base AGI is 120 or higher, Aspd +2, [Triangle Shot] damage additional +10%
If refined +12 or higher and base INT is 60 or higher, MAtk+120.

Edited by Jaye, 30 June 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[michaeleeli]

I still think I'd rather see a stat rather than upgrade unlock the bonus. Because any rich person could give their non-shadow spell chaser good performance as a shadow speller with the right gear combined with this, which seems to miss the point of the project: making people who statted their character for Auto Shadow Spell not feel like they gimped or wasted their character.

How can a rich person give their non-shadow spell chaser good performance as a shadow speller, when they don't have shadow spell in the first place? And I thought you also agreed that more effort = being able to achieve more. If you're rich enough to go through the effort of getting expensive, rare gears, then obviously you will do better than someone who don't have those gears to compete with. And again, I repeat, +12 giving +3 flat aspd doesn't give them easy 193 aspd. You always still need more work.

Also isn't it easier for players to reach high aspd if they just invest in AGI, versus through effort & work to get +12 so they get high aspd?

Edited by michaeleeli, 30 June 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[Ebersu]

why does that have to be true? Can't the hat make up for the lost other stats (like INT) if you go pure 120 AGI? This is all the more solidifcation that its a PVM build.

[Hat effects]
INT +5.
If refined +7 or higher and base AGI is 90 or higher, Aspd +10%, [Triangle Shot] damage +10%
If refined +7 or higher and base AGI is 105 or higher, additional Aspd +5%, [Triangle Shot] damage additional +5%
If refined +9 or higher and base AGI is 120 or higher, Aspd +2, [Triangle Shot] damage additional +10%
If refined +12 or higher and base INT is 60 or higher, MAtk+120.

I'd rather the hat focus on autocast over Triangle Shot. The skill is past saving

And really against +12 bonuses on account bound items.

Edited by Ebersu, 30 June 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[michaeleeli]

Well it's not like it's harming anything by adding in Triangle shot damage. Won't unbalance autocast at all, so I think it's fine adding it in, as long as it doesn't pull back the auto-cast features too.

[Kadelia]

I always liked my stalker for double strafe + heal and such as a good item hunting character. I'd really like to see Chaser reach the same level of solo hunting usefulness with a buffed triangle shot. I've done up to 17k or so triangle shot in the past year. With a catapult it'd be more flexible with the arrows and do a little more damage; a 25% or so boost from this hat would go some ways into helping it further, like 25k+ damage.

[Lunebeam]

Can the hats detect gear and give a bonus to using certain classes of weapons or shields?

For instance only giving a higher attack speed bonus when a shield is detected as being worn to prevent non-shield users from gettng max attack speed too easily.

Edited by Lunebeam, 01 July 2013 - 02:56 AM.