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#1 jake0619

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 02:28 PM

Out of curiousity what is the highest upgrade someone has gotten on Ygg?

So far i've made 1 +12 valk shield but that's it.
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#2 Puppet

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 02:35 PM

after 36 tries and not even making 1 +11 I gave up, upgrade rates are a complete joke,

Atlest requeim upgrade system works and everyone is able to make +30 stuff.


Renewal one for +20 is gona be nothing but pipe dream for 90% of the population
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#3 brokenguy

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 03:50 PM

after 36 tries and not even making 1 +11 I gave up, upgrade rates are a complete joke,

Atlest requeim upgrade system works and everyone is able to make +30 stuff.


Renewal one for +20 is gona be nothing but pipe dream for 90% of the population


You mean 99% of the population? how many +10 have you ran into right now...
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#4 Puppet

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 04:51 PM

You mean 99% of the population? how many +10 have you ran into right now...


I was beeing nice when i said 90%, but fine it more like 99.9% of the population wont get anything over +9 let alone the +20, only the the dirty rich people will. if they wanted to make it fair for all people to have chance stuff higher then +9 they should use success rate like that of requiem, but I think this +20 system is nothing more then way for gravity to milk people of more money from karfa shop stuff to help the already sucky upgrade with stuff that really isnt help much

Edited by Puppet, 04 October 2010 - 04:52 PM.

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#5 Beyond

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:27 PM

I was beeing nice when i said 90%, but fine it more like 99.9% of the population wont get anything over +9 let alone the +20, only the the dirty rich people will.


I made a +9 armor my first week on RO. It isn't going to be the rich. It's gonna be the lucky that make anything past +10
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#6 Puppet

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:36 PM

I made a +9 armor my first week on RO. It isn't going to be the rich. It's gonna be the lucky that make anything past +10


ok well then it broken system that is catered to the lucky bastards? either way 99.9% population will never see these stuff, less the manage to find some one that maked this stuff which would most likely charge god item prices for such things. Like I said it BROKEN SYSTEM
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#7 Beyond

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 07:36 PM

It's not broken. It just relies on plain stinking luck and yes, 99.9% may never see it but it's like winning the lottery so I don't consider it broken. It just takes alot of luck so I can even understand it if you see a guilds worth or more of treasure/Items/Zeny if there is even a single +20 item(mind you I don't think even in kRO has anyone reached beyond +16)
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#8 Prodigy

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 04:20 AM

Are the new, break-proof ores even in? (The ones that makes the item downgrade when failing instead of breaking)
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#9 Jatzu

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 05:04 AM

bradiums are in yes
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#10 Puppet

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 06:33 AM

Are the new, break-proof ores even in? (The ones that makes the item downgrade when failing instead of breaking)



those new ores only work if you manged to get +10 to begin with and if it fails it drops the item back to +7.....
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#11 Rykuth

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 02:28 PM

I'm not sure if they're supposed to completely prevent breaking but I've had +10 stuff break instead of going back to +7. IMO it's completely not worth it unless you have more money than you know what to do with. The only things I think it would be worth it for are equips with cards like Seyren Windsor. +14 str on a headgear? sounds pretty nice to me, but you'd probably get out cheaper just buying god items/MVP cards.
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#12 Doddler

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 07:22 PM

Even with an unlimited supply of +10 gears, several hours never netted me a single gear above +12. The system is kind of absurd. Posted Image
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#13 Akin

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 06:27 AM

Seems like +15 should be the new +10 as far as chance goes.
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#14 Puppet

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 07:18 AM

they need to up the upgrades rates drastically or this +10 and higher upgrade system is useless to 99% of the populations, the fact they threw npc in that automatically +10 stuff for in the test server proves they know the upgrade rates suck, Requiems upgrade system got it right 99.9% of the population is able to make +30 gears and weapons

Make the system usuable for the whole populations not just freak rich and and people willing to waste real money to get this stuff.

or better yet get rid of the enriched ori/elu and replace it with the new ores, and make then 2x the success rate of enriched and when things fails it just drops back to previous upgrade


if those ores fail upgrading at 1+ over the safe rate the item breaks, but anything over that it just goes back to previous upgrade +

something like this would make it more feasible for the populations but even then at +9 the success would still be bad and the fact this stuff is karfa

Edited by Puppet, 06 October 2010 - 07:23 AM.

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#15 Cotano

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 07:29 AM

they need to up the upgrades rates drastically or this +10 and higher upgrade system is useless to 99% of the populations, the fact they threw npc in that automatically +10 stuff for in the test server proves they know the upgrade rates suck, Requiems upgrade system got it right 99.9% of the population is able to make +30 gears and weapons

Make the system usuable for the whole populations not just freak rich and and people willing to waste real money to get this stuff.

or better yet get rid of the enriched ori/elu and replace it with the new ores, and make then 2x the success rate of enriched and when things fails it just drops back to previous upgrade


if those ores fail upgrading at 1+ over the safe rate the item breaks, but anything over that it just goes back to previous upgrade +

something like this would make it more feasible for the populations but even then at +9 the success would still be bad and the fact this stuff is karfa


I like the system. It's not for the rich. So stop talking like you know what your talking about. Look at the post above you. Unlimited supply of +10 items and he made 1 +12. Plus 10 items cost a billion or more normally. 1 billion zeny is a lot for a rich person to lose. Want a plus 12 for a little more defense? Try 30 to 40b in equips lost to give your player that small advantage.

It only profits those who are lucky. It's kind of like the lottery. You could buy a 1,000 tickets and odds are still against you by a great amount.

Problem with IRO is the players have way too many things. The rich players have it all. Well this is something that there more can't net them easily. Attempting to get a +20 could deplete the gold of an entire rich guild without reaching it. Then some new players come in and says hey look at my +20 that I made on my first try.

Edited by Cotano, 06 October 2010 - 07:32 AM.

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#16 Puppet

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:08 AM

I like the system. It's not for the rich. So stop talking like you know what your talking about. Look at the post above you. Unlimited supply of +10 items and he made 1 +12. Plus 10 items cost a billion or more normally. 1 billion zeny is a lot for a rich person to lose. Want a plus 12 for a little more defense? Try 30 to 40b in equips lost to give your player that small advantage.

It only profits those who are lucky. It's kind of like the lottery. You could buy a 1,000 tickets and odds are still against you by a great amount.

Problem with IRO is the players have way too many things. The rich players have it all. Well this is something that there more can't net them easily. Attempting to get a +20 could deplete the gold of an entire rich guild without reaching it. Then some new players come in and says hey look at my +20 that I made on my first try.


you just contradicted your self sayin its not for the rich yet proving it is and say 1bill let alone 30b is alot to lose. Maybe you should stop talking like you know what you talking about cause you obversely confused how this system is for anyone but the rich and extremely lucky.

How many +10 you think are actual out there of those that are actual out there how many do you think would actual try to +11 or higher that gear with such a terrible rate if they anit got the money to replace it when it breaks?

My point is this system dont work for the 99.9% of the population and only the rich or extremely lucky can hope for such stuff.

Edited by Puppet, 06 October 2010 - 09:10 AM.

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#17 DrAzzy

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:19 AM

I understand making high upgrade rates hard to reach. Fine.

But this system is madness.

You need a +10 item to even try for >+10 and.
A +9 item takes ~260 +0's on valk, and ~35 on ymir using enriched the whole way.
+9->10 is a 10% chance.

So, the chance of just being able to start going beyond +10, with a given +0, is 1/2600 on valk and 1/350 on ymir.
The loss of 3 upgrade levels is an insult - because a +7 takes an average of 10 items on valk and 3 on ymir - the +7 they return has a value of ~0.4% of that of the +10 on valk, and ~0.9% on ymir - point being, it might as well have broken!

And even then, the chance of getting even a +12 item, assuming 10% rates, is 1% from +10, so it would take a whopping 260,000 items on valk (867 storages full), and a 35,000 (only 59 storages) on ymir. A +20 would take 26,000,000,000,000 items - TWENTY SIX TRILLION on valk and 3.5 trillion on ymir.

*assuming the item was dropped at a 0.2% rate (0.3 on ymir), as many useful and upgradable items are, and assuming the hunter is a madman who kills 500 monsters per hour (1-shotting and tele leveling), it would take them just under 3 billion years, hunting 24/7/365 to get the amount of items that would be required, on average, to get just 1 +20. On Ymir, with the more forgiving drop rates and higher upgrade rates, they would need a mere 266 million years. And that's assuming a 0.2% rate and no drop penalty.. That's assuming enriched elu on valk for 0-4 and 5-9 on ymir, by the way. On valk, that's 80 kp per, so 2.08 quadrillion kafra points, or 1.73 quadrillion WP points. That is 28 times the world GDP (World Bank, 2008). On Ymir, each +10 required 10 +9's, each of which would take ~75 enriched, so ~750 enriched per +10, so only 7.5 trillion, assuming you bought boxes, 525 trillion kafra points, or 437.5 trillion dollars - a mere 7 times the world annual GDP.

tl;dr: Making a +20 on valk would take ~3 billion years to hunt the items, and cost 28 times the world GDP to buy the enriched elunium involved. Ymir: 266million years, 8 times world GDP.

For the more modest +12, the valk player would need to spend only $17 million on kafra points, while the ymir player would need to spend a mere $437,000.

Assuming average success rates, of course.

Point of all these ginormous numbers, is to point out that THESE NEW UPGRADE RATES WILL NEVER BE REACHED WITHIN THE CURRENT SYSTEM!

And yet, even kRO is not stupid enough to implement a system that is that unlikely to ever be used.

There is only one conclusion to draw from that...
THESE NEW UPGRADE LEVELS WILL ONLY PRACTICALLY OBTAINABLE USING NEW KAFRA SHOP ITEMS
These items have, according to doddler, been added on other servers that have renewal (right?)


Aaanyone else have a problem with this? I sure do. Pay to win in RO has already gone too far in the minds of many players, but we've never had an entire system of game mechanics closed off to non-kafra-shop users before (which is what this would do).


Something needs to be done to >10 upgrading in order to let players have a prayer of reaching it. Actually, something needs to be done to +9->+10 too.

This system needs to be made plausibly accessible to players through in-game means (if with more difficulty than kafra shop users).

Edited by DrAzzy, 06 October 2010 - 09:45 AM.

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#18 Puppet

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 11:51 AM

I understand making high upgrade rates hard to reach. Fine.

But this system is madness.

You need a +10 item to even try for >+10 and.
A +9 item takes ~260 +0's on valk, and ~35 on ymir using enriched the whole way.
+9->10 is a 10% chance.

So, the chance of just being able to start going beyond +10, with a given +0, is 1/2600 on valk and 1/350 on ymir.
The loss of 3 upgrade levels is an insult - because a +7 takes an average of 10 items on valk and 3 on ymir - the +7 they return has a value of ~0.4% of that of the +10 on valk, and ~0.9% on ymir - point being, it might as well have broken!

And even then, the chance of getting even a +12 item, assuming 10% rates, is 1% from +10, so it would take a whopping 260,000 items on valk (867 storages full), and a 35,000 (only 59 storages) on ymir. A +20 would take 26,000,000,000,000 items - TWENTY SIX TRILLION on valk and 3.5 trillion on ymir.

*assuming the item was dropped at a 0.2% rate (0.3 on ymir), as many useful and upgradable items are, and assuming the hunter is a madman who kills 500 monsters per hour (1-shotting and tele leveling), it would take them just under 3 billion years, hunting 24/7/365 to get the amount of items that would be required, on average, to get just 1 +20. On Ymir, with the more forgiving drop rates and higher upgrade rates, they would need a mere 266 million years. And that's assuming a 0.2% rate and no drop penalty.. That's assuming enriched elu on valk for 0-4 and 5-9 on ymir, by the way. On valk, that's 80 kp per, so 2.08 quadrillion kafra points, or 1.73 quadrillion WP points. That is 28 times the world GDP (World Bank, 2008). On Ymir, each +10 required 10 +9's, each of which would take ~75 enriched, so ~750 enriched per +10, so only 7.5 trillion, assuming you bought boxes, 525 trillion kafra points, or 437.5 trillion dollars - a mere 7 times the world annual GDP.

tl;dr: Making a +20 on valk would take ~3 billion years to hunt the items, and cost 28 times the world GDP to buy the enriched elunium involved. Ymir: 266million years, 8 times world GDP.

For the more modest +12, the valk player would need to spend only $17 million on kafra points, while the ymir player would need to spend a mere $437,000.

Assuming average success rates, of course.

Point of all these ginormous numbers, is to point out that THESE NEW UPGRADE RATES WILL NEVER BE REACHED WITHIN THE CURRENT SYSTEM!

And yet, even kRO is not stupid enough to implement a system that is that unlikely to ever be used.

There is only one conclusion to draw from that...
THESE NEW UPGRADE LEVELS WILL ONLY PRACTICALLY OBTAINABLE USING NEW KAFRA SHOP ITEMS
These items have, according to doddler, been added on other servers that have renewal (right?)


Aaanyone else have a problem with this? I sure do. Pay to win in RO has already gone too far in the minds of many players, but we've never had an entire system of game mechanics closed off to non-kafra-shop users before (which is what this would do).


Something needs to be done to >10 upgrading in order to let players have a prayer of reaching it. Actually, something needs to be done to +9->+10 too.

This system needs to be made plausibly accessible to players through in-game means (if with more difficulty than kafra shop users).


DrAzzy ftw! to much math but this explains my whole point much better and with way more detail. Sad part is iRO isnt gona listen, let alone changing it cause "kRO" has to do "all" the changes. give us a success rate that is half as good as requiems and then this poor excuse of upgrade system might actual have chance at let 75% of the populations actual achieve these upgrades.

But yet again this iRO and they wana milk us of money, or what left of the population, cause it gona splinter off again when they open then 2nd server with what left of the population provinding renewal bring back more plays then players the quit, and that providing the ones that came back dont just quit again for same reasons.

Edited by Puppet, 06 October 2010 - 12:23 PM.

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#19 DrAzzy

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:06 PM

Doddler ftw!

Excuse me?


I would certainly not say that 75% of the population should be getting +20 gears, or even any gear >+10, but the % who will eventually get something over +10 should be at least 25% (and if current trends with wealth hold, that would mean that some people would end up with +15-+18's, with maybe a few legendary people with +20's... but without the inevitable pay-to-win methods of upgrading, you're more likely to win the Powerball Jackpot your first time playing it, than to get a +20 in your first 17,000 or so upgrades (130,000 on valk).

Edited by DrAzzy, 06 October 2010 - 12:14 PM.

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#20 jake0619

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:09 PM

that's alot of math :p_devil:
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#21 Puppet

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:24 PM

Excuse me?


I would certainly not say that 75% of the population should be getting +20 gears, or even any gear >+10, but the % who will eventually get something over +10 should be at least 25% (and if current trends with wealth hold, that would mean that some people would end up with +15-+18's, with maybe a few legendary people with +20's... but without the inevitable pay-to-win methods of upgrading, you're more likely to win the Powerball Jackpot your first time playing it, than to get a +20 in your first 17,000 or so upgrades (130,000 on valk).


my bad i some how saw doddler hah I fixed XD
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#22 Cotano

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:39 PM

you just contradicted your self sayin its not for the rich yet proving it is and say 1bill let alone 30b is alot to lose. Maybe you should stop talking like you know what you talking about cause you obversely confused how this system is for anyone but the rich and extremely lucky.

How many +10 you think are actual out there of those that are actual out there how many do you think would actual try to +11 or higher that gear with such a terrible rate if they anit got the money to replace it when it breaks?

My point is this system dont work for the 99.9% of the population and only the rich or extremely lucky can hope for such stuff.


I do know what I'm talking about. You agree with me that 30b is a lot to lose and will make a extremely rich person poor without ever getting close to a plus 20. I consider anyone to have 30b to be extremely rich in game. The karfa point system where in game money is used brings about another problem entirely. It really interferes with the gameplay. It wouldn't be so bad if karfa items had both a zeny price and a kp price.

At least with the zeny price on karfa items we can get rid of our current inflection problem.

Off topic: Everyone, please feel free to correct me. However, do not ask me to not give my opinion/view on things.
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#23 Heimdallr

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:51 PM

The basic upgrades from 0-10 are my gripe even with the enriched it is still very low.

The odds of going 10-> 11 11-12 are the same all the way to 20, and are actually better than the 9-10 rate.

Yes there will likely be kafra shop enhancements, but even enhancing isn't likely oging to be enough to make it a reasonable system.

I want people to get into the teens for their gear, not cheaply (in game items) but reasonable chance to happen. There were significant bugs in the refining from 10-20 when we started testing (chance was 0%) the fix made it ~ 20% to succeed with basic bradium/carnium.

So I do expect an update on this in the future, but it is a change that has to happen globally and not just an iRO change as it is a very core component to RO.
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