77 replies to this topic

[Riakuta]

Sorry that I haven't been able to finish the guide, but I've been having writer's block for some time now even though I am not a writer... I will try to work on it some more starting next week.

[delamare32]

you got verit card under accessories isnt that for shoes? this guide is awsome thx it helped me make a sorc easy

[Xallista]

Having some doubts here. Is spell fist really that good for MVP?

Based on what I can get with the calculator from the iwDatabase, on average you could push for like 600 dmg per lightning bolt on a Hatii for example, so that's about 8k~ per hit of spell fist, for a total of 48k (6 hits for lvl 5 spell fist) in about 2 secs with 182~ aspd, not counting the the times you have to set up spell fist after every 6 hits. So does the build alternate between using spell fist and the other skills as well? (psyhic wave for example) or do you rely on spell fist all the way? Seems very inefficient compared to what other classes do for MVP builds.

[Riakuta]

Having some doubts here. Is spell fist really that good for MVP?

Based on what I can get with the calculator from the iwDatabase, on average you could push for like 600 dmg per lightning bolt on a Hatii for example, so that's about 8k~ per hit of spell fist, for a total of 48k (6 hits for lvl 5 spell fist) in about 2 secs with 182~ aspd, not counting the the times you have to set up spell fist after every 6 hits. So does the build alternate between using spell fist and the other skills as well? (psyhic wave for example) or do you rely on spell fist all the way? Seems very inefficient compared to what other classes do for MVP builds.

Spell Fist isn't great because of speed, but because of survivability through Kaahi. Its much easier to die using a Sorcerer's AoE Spells while killing an MVP since you kill off the minions which are providing the brunt of the heal. Although, using AoE Spells with Insignia to MVP might be better only if you have a way to keep your summon alive since with the Insignia trick you would only be taking 1 damage from an MVP's auto attacks.

[Xallista]

In that case, wouldn't it be better to use sage spirit'ed hindsight + double bolt + CD? To me, unless there's a major buff to spell fist, whether in damage or number of hits, it just seems unnecessarily troublesome for a slight boost in damage. That is, unless there's some other advantage that I'm missing here.

There's the issue of skills as well. Getting Maxed striking, spell fist, lvl 2 of all insignias, plus lvl 2 spirit control only leaves you with 4 skill points left, which at best, gives you lvl 4 psychic wave. If I were to go hindsight-double bolt path instead, I could get max psychic wave, diamond dust and earthgrave. This provides a more versatile range of skills as well, so as to not completely gimp you in PvM.

Edited by Xallista, 04 December 2012 - 04:51 AM.

[Riakuta]

In that case, wouldn't it be better to use sage spirit'ed hindsight + double bolt + CD? To me, unless there's a major buff to spell fist, whether in damage or number of hits, it just seems unnecessarily troublesome for a slight boost in damage. That is, unless there's some other advantage that I'm missing here.

There's the issue of skills as well. Getting Maxed striking, spell fist, lvl 2 of all insignias, plus lvl 2 spirit control only leaves you with 4 skill points left, which at best, gives you lvl 4 psychic wave. If I were to go hindsight-double bolt path instead, I could get max psychic wave, diamond dust and earthgrave. This provides a more versatile range of skills as well, so as to not completely gimp you in PvM.

While using a +9 Skull Cap of Caster, +10 Thorn Staff of Darkness Spell 4 Spell 2, +9 Deviant Heroic Backpack. & Chambered 2012 RWC Pendant Dex +3 Spell 3 Spell 3. I was able to achieve a 400 damage Fire Bolt on Phreeoni with Level 1 Fire Bolt (4,000 at Level 10). A Grand Total of 259 + 426 Matk. MVPs have high Mdef meaning first class skills are not an effective damage out put to hurt them in the slightest. I have a Video of my Fire Bolt vs Phreeoni, but it will take 110 minutes to upload... Skill Level of Fire Bolt does not effect damage only the # of hits it does.

The hidden benefit from Spell Fist is that it converts Fire Bolt, Lightning Bolt, & Cold Bolt into a singular hit with 1.5 x damage that is reduced by Mdef once instead of 10 separate times. If you use an elemental Bonus from the type of Spell Fist you choose you can easily achieve a regular damage output of 10,000+ with the right equipment. A well geared Sorcerer can deal a maximum of 100,000 damage per Spell Fist Cast. (Note: Higher Damage can be achieved with Fallen Bishop Card against Demi-Human MVPs)

Side Note: Striking does not effect the damage of Spell Fist since Striking only increases your Atk not Matk.

Edited by Riakuta, 04 December 2012 - 05:45 AM.

[Xallista]

Ah, my bad. Kept thinking Striking adds to the damage since its considered a melee attack. From the wiki, spell fist is a x1.25 damage boost actually, not x1.5, although it is true that you only go through mdef once instead of 10 (or 20 counting double cast) times. The question is whether or not the whole process (cast bolt, spell fist, hit 6 times, repeat) creates a significant enough of an advantage over simply hindsighting with double cast, along with a CD in mouth (which creates additional chances of double casting). That's 25% chance of autocasting lvl 10 bolts with sage spirit, and another 6% chance to activate a 5 second window of autocasting bolts/earth spike/soul strike, not to mention that the bolt autocasts can also activate double cast as well. Comparing that to x1.25 dmg per hit for 6 hits...it's kinda hard for me to see the immediate advantage of using spell fist.

With your gears, plus 90 base agi, guarana candy, awakening potion, celemine juice, +20 agi food, agi up (from turkey hat/rudolf hat or a priest/AB) you can probably hit about 190 aspd, or 5 hits per second. We'll have to see how spell fist would measure up at that speed, even more so if you get more base agi to push for 191-193 aspd.

EDIT: I guess you don't have spell fist yet? Would be nice to see a direct comparison on the same monster (preferbly a mvp).

Edited by Xallista, 04 December 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[Riakuta]

CD in Mouth will casts separate skills than Hindsight and since skills don't proc skills it would obviously actually take away from your damage...

I used to be a Spell Fist MVP killer, but now I'm built for WoE & I have to tell you Spell Fist is one of the funnest experiences in the Sorcerer Class skill tree. Sorcerers are not MVP winners and take a while to kill an MVP regardless of what build they choose to undertake, but they are one of the most interesting classes to kill an MVP with!

[NeoNilox]

Spell Fist used to be a 1.5x bolt dmg boost, but the "balance" patch nerfed it to 1.25x. A rather stupid nerf IMO since it was one of the most underrated skills in the Sorc branch. Not to mention the ASPD nerf for 2h staves...

Anyway...

While using a +9 Skull Cap of Caster, +10 Thorn Staff of Darkness Spell 4 Spell 2, +9 Deviant Heroic Backpack. & Chambered 2012 RWC Pendant Dex +3 Spell 3 Spell 3. [...]

What were those effects that made them superior to the Imp carded Alchemy Gloves?

The hidden benefit from Spell Fist is that it converts Fire Bolt, Lightning Bolt, & Cold Bolt into a singular hit with 1.5 x damage that is reduced by Mdef once instead of 10 separate times.

REALLY?!! That outdated I am?! I could swear it had the same exact bolt dmg treatment (Mdef is applied [Bolt Lv] times).

Edited by NeoNilox, 04 December 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[Xallista]

1.5x sounds pretty reasonable actually, although I could see what its a problem in the WoE/PVP scenario. Probably the main reason for the "nerf".

The RWC pendent/ring gives 4% atk/matk each, double spell 3 means 12 matk, -8% variable cast each, meaning 4% matk, 24matk, -16% variable cast on that pendent alone.

Well, the mdef part wasn't really clarified on the Wiki. Thing is, since spell fist can be boosted by siroma/imp etc, there might be a possibility that it still has the x10 mdef penalty to deal with. Only way to find out is trying it out I suppose.

[NeoNilox]

Well, the mdef part wasn't really clarified on the Wiki.

"Since the way Spell Fist is calculated is same than how the Bolt skills are calculated, the MDEF of your target greatly reduces your overall damage (the MDEF reduces your base MATK and then is multiplied by the Bolt / Spell Fist multiplier)."

I dunno, it's rather clear for me.

Also, I don't think the nerf is reasonable, that skill was/is SO underrated that many people just sticks with PW due to its BaseLv mod, Mdef applied once, and its ability to change its element ("and it deals same damage in aoe =/" I was told), while the Mdefs and Bolts made SF a joke vs. players with so high Mdef that SF could deal up to 15 dmg per hit (possibly 12 or 13 nowadays). And the ASPD nerf to 2h staves... =_="

[Xallista]

I was basing the dmg part on some random videos I found on youtube, then again they probably didnt have woe sets and stuff (private servers most likely). Saw a sorc get killed by his own 15k dmg spell fist against an RG with reflect.

[michaeleeli]

Also understand the point of using spell fist is to maximize damage through elemental advatanges..so while under an insignia, it will increase your same spell fists damage against an MVP who is weak to that damage - thus with great equips, can go from 8k-20k per hit - I wouldn't use CD in mouth/hindsight due to the delays from the skill.

Also, under insignias, you receive 1% from the MvP's, not 1 damage (thus if you get hit 10,000, you will get hit 100 actually)

And sorry I've been lazy to do the builds too >.< having finals until end of next week

[The3xorcist]

Good guide from a proffessional sorcerer xD
I have a question, what enchant is better for psychic wave's damage (talking on tsod enchant) is it Int or spell enchant?

thank you

[Riakuta]

Good guide from a proffessional sorcerer xD
I have a question, what enchant is better for psychic wave's damage (talking on tsod enchant) is it Int or spell enchant?

thank you

In terms of damage (5 Int, 5 Int) +10 Matk +30% Damage vs + (Spell 4, Spell 4) +30 Matk, -20% Variable Cast Time.
For Sorcerer Cast Time Reduction > Pure Damage. Since the closer you get to Instant Cast the faster your DPS becomes.

Edited by Riakuta, 15 March 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[The3xorcist]

In terms of damage (5 Int, 5 Int) +10 Matk +30% Damage vs + (Spell 4, Spell 4) +30 Matk, -20% Variable Cast Time.
For Sorcerer Cast Time Reduction > Pure Damage. Since the closer you get to Instant Cast the faster your DPS becomes.

Wow thank you. I thought having int on enchant would be better than spell, i think i should re-enchant my tsod.

I wasnt able to get connected to internet for days.

Edited by The3xorcist, 21 March 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[jesric]

Since Valk Rand uses LoV and Thunder Storm, it is absolutely important to use Wind Summon/Wind Insignia against it. With them standing inside your insignia, you will laugh as they tickle you.

untill she casts Ganbantein canceling your insignia and in turn the forces wep ele change. im guessing I need to stand far enough from it so it wont cancel the insig yet close ehough that it is in the insig =P

Edited by jesric, 25 March 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[TheSquishy]

untill she casts Ganbantein canceling your insignia and in turn the forces wep ele change. im guessing I need to stand far enough from it so it wont cancel the insig yet close ehough that it is in the insig =P

If the summon is still alive, you shouldn't drop to her LoV. Just have someone pnuema you and change your armor and recast another insignia. It's nice to have 2 to rotate between for more grumpy MVPs.

I recommend practicing juggling your insignias with MVPs like Drake or Missy before taking on Valks and Ifrits

[rzevidz007]

Well imo, to add some damage to your rotation, you can add Varetyr Spear at the end of DIamond Dust -> Physic Wave -> Earth Grave combo.
It has a chance to stun, and everyone loves stun.

[hmc317]

Hello, first off nice guide, and thanks for your contribution to the community.

Now i am a very inexperienced mage player, and would like to start up a sorc. I have read many guides, but they only show u end game, not how u start a sage. I know the first 99 levels b4 trans is easy, and i could basically do watever i wanted, but i would like to use the first 99 levels to gain experince playing the class. So my questions are:

1. I would like to play a pvm/mvp oriented sorc, and as far as i can see, only spellfist is listed so far in the guide section. Is spellfist the superior sorc, or is a more aoe oriented sorc with an elemental the way to go.
2. Can i go full endow and aoe, or is it one or the other?
3. If i go full aoe, do i get all the elements, or only concentrate on particular elements.
4. What are the must have skills for the top skill tree leading to spellfist, that is neccessary for aoe sorc, for example is free cast good, and if so how much should i invest into it?

Like i said i could easily go spellfist or bolt or anything for the first 99 levels b4 trans, but i would love to get a feel for the playstyle of the sorc at its endgame from the very start.

Thanks for anyhelp or advice!!!

[mikayel]

Summon/Insignia Combos for MvPs:
Solo MvP:
Example: Maya | Element: Earth 4
There are always 2-3 Summon/Insignia combo for every MvP. For the easy, introductory course, a sorcerer should always be using the same​ Summon elemental and Insignia that is the opposite of the MvP's element to receive 1% of the MvP's damage. Because Maya is Earth element, you will want to use a counter Insignia to reduce its HP by 1%/5sec, which is Wind. Therefore, you will first summon Call Ventus Level 2, Spirit Control Level 2. This is a defensive mode that will change your armor property to give you 100% wind resistance. After encountering Maya, immediatly place down a Wind Insignia Level 2, and remember to stand on the side of the Insignia, as you need to give space for the MvP and its minions to stand inside it. This will force Maya and any monster inside it to attack you with Wind Property - but since you have 100% resist, you will only receive 1% of the damage (1% is default minimum for player vs MvP's, you cannot be entirely immune). Also, since Wind Insignia counters Earth Element, Maya will reduce its max HP by 1%/5sec. Furthermore - since you are also standing inside the Insignia, your attacks have become wind also - which hits Maya even more. Note that Insignias changes the weapon property, not the armor. Going even further more, you can wear a wind armor to reduce Maya's earth elemental attacks (forced through skills) and heal yourself 1%hp/5sec.

I was under the impression that wind hits earth for less damage.

According to irowiki, wind does 60% damage on level 4 earth elemental enemies.

Wiki also says that Fire insignia does damage to earth elemental monsters, not Wind Insignia (this would damage water elemental monsters).

Unless there is something wrong in the wiki.

Edited by mikayel, 23 June 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[michaeleeli]

You're right. But that is an example of using the ability of -1% max hp/5sec against MvP's. That is pretty outdated now - the new Spellfist Sorcerer hat adds an extreme amount of damage to Spellfist, so I would not suggest you use wind insignia.

Nor fire insignia on it.

You should use Earth Insignia - it increases all fire damage inside it further by 50%. So it's highly possible you can finish off a Maya in one spell fist charge - no need any defense!

[mikayel]

A single charge? Sounds like a challenge needing video proof to me :3

[killedbytofu]

Hello, first off nice guide, and thanks for your contribution to the community.

Now i am a very inexperienced mage player, and would like to start up a sorc. I have read many guides, but they only show u end game, not how u start a sage. I know the first 99 levels b4 trans is easy, and i could basically do watever i wanted, but i would like to use the first 99 levels to gain experince playing the class. So my questions are:

1. I would like to play a pvm/mvp oriented sorc, and as far as i can see, only spellfist is listed so far in the guide section. Is spellfist the superior sorc, or is a more aoe oriented sorc with an elemental the way to go.
2. Can i go full endow and aoe, or is it one or the other?
3. If i go full aoe, do i get all the elements, or only concentrate on particular elements.
4. What are the must have skills for the top skill tree leading to spellfist, that is neccessary for aoe sorc, for example is free cast good, and if so how much should i invest into it?

Like i said i could easily go spellfist or bolt or anything for the first 99 levels b4 trans, but i would love to get a feel for the playstyle of the sorc at its endgame from the very start.

Thanks for anyhelp or advice!!!

playing sorc and sage are like night and day. not even close to the same thing

1)aoe is the only way to go for leveling/pvm. spellfist is extremely slow since its single target killing and lvling in renewal is all about aoe. spell fist IS fun however and at the later end levels (like 135-150) it comes more into play for leveling SOLO (if thats what you plan on doing). spell fist is good for places like scaraba (mind you though that youre going to end up spending a fortune on healing yourself if you choose this route). as far as mvping....you need some pretty goddamn good items to stand there and tank an mvp on a caster. its highly unrealistic and most of these people use tokens to revive themselves from the many deaths they most likely incur trying to do so. in a real time environment, you wont get a chance to cast 2 insignias because other people will be killing the same mvp youre trying to kill (unless its like 3am and youre trying to kill one of the ghost mvps or something). in a group/guild ET run, you will most likely die or pull aggro off the tank and wipe the whole party if you try to walk up to the mvp and start punching away at it. MOST sorcs resort to support roles in mvp/pvm by supporting the team with buffs, the casters with SP, and healing with warmer. im sure theres plenty of heroic tales of sorcs solo mvping on here, but overall, thats just not something the majority do. its a support/pvp class. if youre looking for a pvm hero, make a warlock

2) you NEED some of the full endows for aoe. the endows raise the damage of your aoe spells (check irowiki to figure out which benefit from which).
3) youll want all of the elements to get a rotation going since they have horrible cooldowns and the non psychic wave ones do low dmg. youll also want to get the elemental summon that best suits your needs (each one gives different advantages). for leveling 100-125, summon aqua is the best because it makes your psychic wave water element, adds 20% more dmg, and adds 80 mATK which makes it ideal for leveling in Nogg road. some people swear by Ventus because of the 1 second cast reduction. for spell fist ventus is a must have thanks to his ASPD buff
4) if you plan on ever pvping then you dont really have much leeway for anything because the majority of your pvp spells will be in the scholar/sage tree. if you plan on never entering pvp or woe with your sorc though (i dunno why you wouldnt since theyre a pvp class lol) then you really just need the prereqs for: diamond dust, psychic wave, and earth grave. keep in mind though that the sage/sorc class was designed for pvp which is why their pvm skills arnt as powerful as a warlocks. you can use this skill calculator to mess around with the skills:

http://-_-/skill_sim.php?jid=4074



spell fist is a sorc spell. youre getting it confused with hindsight which gives you a chance to auto cast bolts on attack. hindsight is really a terrible build to use in renewal because of the new flee mechanics, and unless you have an alicel card + whisper card + dragon set, youre going to take ALOT of dmg. its also a terrible build to use because the bolt dmg is INSANELY low. youre looking at 300 dmg bolts. even with the 50% extra you can get wiht accessory cards thats still pretty low. the build really excells with a soul linker though which is why many people dual client one if they go this route. if you MUST try it though, try to focus more on attack dmg than INT and mATK since youre not gonna get that much out of the bolts. using a crit weapon works great since it bypasses everything and allows you to put those dex points into more STR/INT. theres some builds on irowiki for hindsight that are more up to date and built for survival.


the easiest way to level a sage though is with 2 maxed out bolt spells and maxed out fireball and heavens drive (some get thunderstorm as well). some people also like to vertical firewall level. i personally find it slower. right now we have byalan island spotlight so going with all the lightning spells would be an easy way to lvl 85 where you can start joining TIs

[michaeleeli]

Contrary to belief high aspd =/= good spellfist. You need to sit around ~175-185 to have a decent output damage but slow enough so you can walk away and recast spellfist. Attacking way too fast with RO lag will just slow your walk away speed..unless you're really used to it.

I also believe hindsight will proc even if you miss, so flee mechanics don't matter. Nevertheless hindsight does suck in terms of damage, but the worst thing is that it gives you so much delay...you need to spam your clicks to walk away if it's proc-ing too much. But this is terms of pvp - for pvm, the delay still sucks so much, but damage is always good if you're doing it against the right elements with the right equips and summons.

Edited by michaeleeli, 26 June 2013 - 12:50 AM.