160 replies to this topic

[cory]

We are all probably excited about the update coming to iRO.  Increased stats, base levels, job levels, new maps, and instances are a few things we are looking forward too.  I personally am looking forward to the 10 more job levels as this opens up so many new builds for all classes.  This especially pertains to classes *cough warlock: surprise surprise!* that have many job points to allocate, but having only 50 job points really limits the options.

 

Now on to the main subject of this post.  Most skill formulas on 3-1 and 3-2 classes have the base level in their formula that calculates the final magic or physical attack.  With the 25 level increase, this will affect damage for many classes/skills, more or less.  

 

Or none at all.

 

Classes that benefit for their skills from the future 175/60 update:

 

All 3-1 and 3-2 offensive skills except a few.

 

Some classes will benefit exceedingly well.

 

For example, Sura's Gates of Hell and Tiger cannon is the only skill I found from all classes that significantly benefit from the base/job level increase along with more stat allocation.  In addition, 90% of the damage is non-reducible in pvp/woe.  I won't get in the numbers and math, but feel free to compare damage formulas on other classes between 150/50 and 175/60.

 

Classes that have no benefit for their skills from the future 175/60 update:

 

Warlock's: Tetra Vortex and Comet [Ultimate spells] - Monsters and players will have increased HP and MDEF, so these skills will fall way behind in every way. 

 

Mechanics:  FAW Silver Sniper/Magic Decoy - Honorable mention.  Who uses this anyways.

 

You may immediately point out that these classes are all I talk about, but I could not find any other offensive skill that has no base level/job level built in their formula.  It just so happens these are on the list.

 

My personal concern is the question "will WoE now be 95% suras?".  Their main offensive skills are not reducible racially, but Dragon Breath got nerfed.  Mind blown.

 

Happy holidays/ Hanukkah

Shalom

 

Cory

 

 

 

[ChakriGuard]

I have already realized about this concern. However by bringing up this concern is not new. How many times has it been debated between anti-sura and pro-sura players that weather or not a sura is an over-powered class? This kind of topic is not new either. I have seen it both in Thai server and this server. We just know that there are many sura in WoE and PvP for some reasons (lol).

There is nothing much you can do beside switching to play a sura yourself, increasing sura population that is alreay high in WoE even further. The other option, stick with your favourite class and have fun.

On a bright side, when the samurai-effect shadow gears come, it must be hilarious to see one s le 175/60 sura with +14 kvm, 2 megs and 1 tao wipes 5x5 AoE in one press, two presses maybe? Snap then Tiger cannon lol

Edited by ChakriGuard, 05 December 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[cory]

I have already realized about this concern. However by bringing up this concern is not new. How many times has it been debated between anti-sura and pro-sura players that weather or not a sura is an over-powered class? This kind of topic is not new either.

 

My goal was not to focus on Sura being OP or whatever.  The concern is that certain formulas need looked at to compliment the 175/60 update.  Offensive classes will be more offensive, support skills and classes will fall too far behind.  

 

I'm also curious why Sura has such a unique skill formula where most of the damage is unreducible in WoE, yet DB got nerfed.

 

It's kind of hard for a playerbase to enjoy a class where you see other classes outperform you in every single way.... 

[Tofu]

The only part of GoH that scales with base level is:

[(Skill Level x 500) x Caster’s Base Level / 100] % 

That means the modifier is going from 7500% to 8750%. And that part of the damage is fully reducible. The hp missing part of the damage doesn't scale with base level at all, and is the only part that ignores reductions.

Estimating every class gets about ~30% more hp from 25 more base levels, that means GoH only gains about 15% more damage total (16% more damage on the modifier part, and 30% more hp means 15% more damage from the flat damage part).

All in all, GoH scales at the same pace as any skill that scales with base level.


Tiger cannon, on the other hand, has both base level and hp in the modifier. So it (along with Dragon Breath) will scale twice as fast, essentially, as other skills that scale with base level.

However, Tiger Cannon is fully reducible.

[CharAznable]

Warlock gets new skill that boosts up x3 damage on some of their skill. Base Level doesn't really matter for them 

[CharAznable]

For people who are concerned on AS damage, its, ATK(final) [{(Skill Level X 80) + 1000} X (Base Level/100)] % -> {(10*80)+1000}*(175/100) % = 3150% with +12 xbow and wws set, it becomes 6615% from your final ATK. your final atk is (Stat+Equip atk)ranged modifier.

 

Before, it was 5670% with +12 xbow and wws set. 

Edited by CharAznable, 05 December 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Zoltor]

What I don't get, is why nerf DB in WOE at all to beginwith, first of all, they're like the weakest attackers compared to any non-support character. In WOE, even SC out performs as far as damage dealing goes. The onlything making them good in WOE is the high MDEF(which allows them to kill characters with no def anyway, aka precast), and there high HP that allows them toy survive most things.

 

Aside from a caster job though, they're not gonna kill much of anything often, they could use a high Offense skill in WOE.

 

Fighting players, Isn't like taking down a MVP, players in WOE have all kinds of special gears, atleast half of them, have some crazy offence Skill as well, so why take away RKs one high damage skill, actually worth using in WOE?

 

I don't really personally mind, as I rather WOE with my SC instead(It's a hell of a lot more fun to WOE with), but still, when you have GXs constantly breaking the game, suras one shotting anyone not wearing a GR, and WL/Sorcerers with a million MATK, why nerf the char who has been well known to being underpowered in WOE(yes, they have a purpose, to break precast, but that's pretty much all they can do, while other jobs keep getting stronger skills, their skills get nerfed to uselessness for WOE).

 

It seems like RKs are becoming more support then ever before, yet RGs, which were devised from a support job type, is becoming more of a heavy hitter, WTF. I'm all for making char versatile, but damn they made RGs versatile, while forcing RKs to be support, and nerfing anything that can give them a offensive edge.

Edited by Zoltor, 05 December 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[Viri]

What I don't get, is why nerf DB in WOE at all to beginwith, first of all, they're like the weakest attackers compared to any non-support character. In WOE, even SC out performs as far as damage dealing goes. The onlything making them good in WOE is the high MDEF(which allows them to kill characters with no def anyway, aka precast), and there high HP that allows them toy survive most things.

 

Aside from a caster job though, they're not gonna kill much of anything often, they could use a high Offense skill in WOE.

 

Fighting players, Isn't like taking down a MVP, players in WOE have all kinds of special gears, atleast half of them, have some crazy offence Skill as well, so why take away RKs one high damage skill, actually worth using in WOE?

 

I don't really personally mind, as I rather WOE with my SC instead(It's a hell of a lot more fun to WOE with), but still, when you have GXs constantly breaking the game, suras one shotting anyone not wearing a GR, and WL/Sorcerers with a million MATK, why nerf the char who has been well known to being underpowered in WOE(yes, they have a purpose, to break precast, but that's pretty much all they can do).

 

It seems like RKs are becoming more support then ever before, yet RGs, which were devised from a support job type, is becoming more of a heavy hitter, WTF. I'm all for making char versatile, but damn they made RGs versatile, while forcing RKs to be support, and nerfing anything that can give them a offensive edge.

 

Have you ever WoE'd? RK is like the main killing class for woe... and it's not really a terrible nerf. If a person is wearing medium or low reductions DB will actually do more than before.

[CharAznable]

What I don't get, is why nerf DB in WOE at all to beginwith, first of all, they're like the weakest attackers compared to any non-support character. In WOE, even SC out performs as far as damage dealing goes. The onlything making them good in WOE is the high MDEF(which allows them to kill characters with no def anyway, aka precast), and there high HP that allows them toy survive most things.

 

Aside from a caster job though, they're not gonna kill much of anything often, they could use a high Offense skill in WOE.

 

Fighting players, Isn't like taking down a MVP, players in WOE have all kinds of special gears, atleast half of them, have some crazy offence Skill as well, so why take away RKs one high damage skill, actually worth using in WOE?

 

I don't really personally mind, as I rather WOE with my SC instead(It's a hell of a lot more fun to WOE with), but still, when you have GXs constantly breaking the game, suras one shotting anyone not wearing a GR, and WL/Sorcerers with a million MATK, why nerf the char who has been well known to being underpowered in WOE(yes, they have a purpose, to break precast, but that's pretty much all they can do).

 

It seems like RKs are becoming more support then ever before, yet RGs, which were devised from a support job type, is becoming more of a heavy hitter, WTF. I'm all for making char versatile, but damn they made RGs versatile, while forcing RKs to be support, and nerfing anything that can give them a offensive edge.

 

What...are you talking about. DB is one of the best AoE in WoE.

[Sirolrex]

What I don't get, is why nerf DB in WOE at all to beginwith, first of all, they're like the weakest attackers compared to any non-support character. In WOE, even SC out performs as far as damage dealing goes. The onlything making them good in WOE is the high MDEF(which allows them to kill characters with no def anyway, aka precast), and there high HP that allows them toy survive most things.

 

Aside from a caster job though, they're not gonna kill much of anything often, they could use a high Offense skill in WOE.

 

Fighting players, Isn't like taking down a MVP, players in WOE have all kinds of special gears, atleast half of them, have some crazy offence Skill as well, so why take away RKs one high damage skill, actually worth using in WOE?

 

I don't really personally mind, as I rather WOE with my SC instead(It's a hell of a lot more fun to WOE with), but still, when you have GXs constantly breaking the game, suras one shotting anyone not wearing a GR, and WL/Sorcerers with a million MATK, why nerf the char who has been well known to being underpowered in WOE(yes, they have a purpose, to break precast, but that's pretty much all they can do, while other jobs keep getting stronger skills, their skills get nerfed to uselessness for WOE).

 

It seems like RKs are becoming more support then ever before, yet RGs, which were devised from a support job type, is becoming more of a heavy hitter, WTF. I'm all for making char versatile, but damn they made RGs versatile, while forcing RKs to be support, and nerfing anything that can give them a offensive edge.

 

Hey look, someone that has no clue what the -_- they're talking about that's spewing nonsensical bull-_- that does nothing but spread false information.

[Zoltor]

What...are you talking about. DB is one of the best AoE in WoE.

 

Did you not see the nerf,, all sorts of reduction cards are gonna effect it supposedly now.

Edited by Zoltor, 05 December 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[CharAznable]

Did you not see the nerf,, all sorts of reduction cards are gonna effect it supposedly now.

{(Caster’s HP / 50) + (Caster’s MSP / 4)} x (Dragon Breath Skill Level x Caster’s Base Level / 150)} x Dragon Training This is Current formula on DB damage. 

 

{[(Caster's HP / 50) + ( Caster's MSP / 4)] × (Dragon Breath Skill Level × Base Level / 150)} × Dragon Training × Elemental modifier(1.25~2) × Ranged Damage(Expert Archer and so on) This is new DB formula. 

 

This means, if user have 0% reduction, they're actually going to get WAY MORE damage. even with reduction, they will do maybe even more damage now.

Edited by CharAznable, 05 December 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[Havenn]

Your argument was based on DB being weaker than an SC in current WoE. WTF are you talking about.

[Shippou22]

you can toy around with the dragon breath element to mind-blow people that dont swap their armor element, if that fails you can still hundred spear people, i dont see what the biggie is about, i dont think RK has ever been a supportive role class.

[cory]

What I don't get, is why nerf DB in WOE at all to beginwith, first of all, they're like the weakest attackers compared to any non-support character.

 

This was a much needed fix as it was forcing everyone and their dogs to either wear Fire armor or get one - two shotted by a skill that is racially irreducible.

 

 

 

WL/Sorcerers with a million MATK, 

I have yet to die to a sorcerer unless I run out of pots or get crystallized, then I'm killed by something else.  

 

Offensive Warlocks in WOE are a joke class without MVP cards.  MATK users lose a ton of "MATK" from wearing WOE sets, unless you want to sacrifice WOE reductions for MATK gear.  In that case you wont get anything casted off because you will die faster than you can say "That was a mistake".

 

Not sure what you are smoking, but RK's play a significant role in WoE with Dragon breath.

 

A WoE without RK's would be a totally different, alternate universe. 

WoE without Wanderers would be not noticeable.

Woe without Warlocks would be not noticeable.

WoE without Sura's would be a world where the only way you would die is running out of pots.

[ChakriGuard]

Its more likely, fixing the DB. For whaton earth are the reasons DB should bypass reduc. to beging with?

[cory]

Its more likely, fixing the DB. For whaton earth are the reasons DB should bypass reduc. to beging with?

 

Because Gravity HQ has no clue what they are doing. Old news ever since the Amatsu patch.

[Tofu]

Did you not see the nerf,, all sorts of reduction cards are gonna effect it supposedly now.

Players stacked with full resistance may get ~90% (or slightly more) total resistance to DB. DB should be gaining ~50% more damage, just from increased hp/sp/base level. On top of that, you can stack up to like +80% ranged damage to increase it further.

Total DB increase (before reducs): 2.7x damage
Total DB damage (after reducs): 0.1 * 2.7 = 0.27x damage


With this change, you also cannot just use a fire armor to reduce the damage (to 0.25x damage), because you also have water DB to worry about. Assuming you switch to an unfrozen, or some other neutral element armor, you'll actually be taking 8.576% more damage than before, with 90 freaking percent resistance to it.


This is a massive nerf, if you considered your targets before to be using non-fire armors. It's a buff if you considered your targets before to be using fire armors (or a buff against 2h weapon users, or WW set rangers, etc).

[Zoltor]

Your argument was based on DB being weaker than an SC in current WoE. WTF are you talking about.

 

No, my argument was that "RKs" are generally a weak damage dealing job, so the last thing that should be done, is nerfing RKs one high dmg skill, actually worth using in WOE.

[Havenn]

Logically, why on earth would a shield designed to fend off humanoids protect you from getting your ass torched by a dragon?

 

RKs are generally the deciding factor of winning WoE and the highest DPS in WoE. SC disables one persons skills, while RK disables your guilds life

Edited by Havenn, 05 December 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[cory]

Now the question is whether DEFENSE or MDEF will reduce the damage...

im trying to prepare my defenses against dragons and funny looking sprites

 

 

[Zoltor]

Players stacked with full resistance may get ~90% (or slightly more) total resistance to DB. DB should be gaining ~50% more damage, just from increased hp/sp/base level. On top of that, you can stack up to like +80% ranged damage to increase it further.

Total DB increase (before reducs): 2.7x damage
Total DB damage (after reducs): 0.1 * 2.7 = 0.27x damage


With this change, you also cannot just use a fire armor to reduce the damage (to 0.25x damage), because you also have water DB to worry about. Assuming you switch to an unfrozen, or some other neutral element armor, you'll actually be taking 8.576% more damage than before, with 90 freaking percent resistance to it.


This is a massive nerf, if you considered your targets before to be using non-fire armors. It's a buff if you considered your targets before to be using fire armors (or a buff against 2h weapon users, or WW set rangers, etc).

 

As hilarious as the concept is, I forsee unfrozen Fire armor becoming a common thing, 2x Waterdrop broaches, Sky Crown,, standard Cranial, ect.

 

I'm sure alittle bit of digging in the database for equips, plus Odin knows what buff items exist, that have been forgotten about could render RKs DB pretty laughable at the end of the day.

 

To Havenn: That's a SC being a tool, a real SC, can just kill it lol, no need to let others take the credit.

Edited by Zoltor, 05 December 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[Scuba]

Soo basically renewal is changing from DB & AS -_-storm into a DB & AS -_-storm with higher barriers to entry.

 

Renewal sounds fun.

[Tofu]

As hilarious as the concept is, I forsee unfrozen Fire armor becoming a common thing, 2x Waterdrop broaches, Sky Crown,, standard Cranial, ect.

I'm sure alittle bit of digging in the database for equips, plus Odin knows what buff items exist, that have been forgotten about could render RKs DB pretty laughable at the end of the day.

Unfrozen fire -> take 175% damage from Water DB

[cory]

As hilarious as the concept is, I forsee unfrozen Fire armor becoming a common thing, 2x Waterdrop broaches, Sky Crown,, standard Cranial, ect.

 

I'm sure alittle bit of digging in the database for equips, plus Odin knows what buff items exist, that have been forgotten about could render RKs DB pretty laughable at the end of the day.

 

Same can be said for every other classes skills, but will 90% of the population have it?

 

No.  

 

You are assuming too much and pretty much digging for things to whine and complain about. Stop.

 

 

 

Soo basically renewal is changing from DB & AS -_-storm into a DB & AS -_-storm with higher barriers to entry.

 

Renewal sounds fun.

 

I wouldn't assume that.  All classes got new skills and builds with the job 60 update.  This gives more variations on what to expect in WoE/PVM.