639 replies to this topic

[schia]

Apology accepted.

 

I take it you think it's ok for people to program their own autopots and distribute it within their own guild/ friendship circles so they have an advantage over those who don't, right?

 

 

My favourite part about this whole topic is that Oda will read it and be ok with people justifying cheating and then ignore it without saying a word, just like how he was ok with a certain guildleader justifying nodelay in the "nodelay enforcement thread" and didn't say a word or take an action when video was produced of that player using nodelay. (in a thread about enforcing nodelay). All the had to do was say "no its no ok, don't do it again bro"

 

And this is why people think the staff are biased

 

actually it was a jab at the rumors years ago about a GM sleeping with a guild leader in exchange for in-game services.  Someone wanted that footlong, if you know what i mean.

 

I personally believe that they are just tools, it all depends on the intent and implementation of it by the user.  I believe it is wrong to use these tools in a setting where you will get personal benefit from it such as in a woe environment or whatever.  However,  I have no problems against people using tools to help out the entire community as a whole, IE Rachel with ragnastats/botspot and inubashiri with section 9.

 

Plenty of great things was done with programs to help better the game.  How did you think people figured out how duping was done and reported it when it first came about?

 

As tempting as it was for me to use autopotting, i never used it simply because me and my friends never took woe seriously enough.  That and it was just cheaper to respawn. Would i consider it if i had near endless amount of supplies?  Probably, but if i had that much assets i wouldn't even play the WoE portion anymore because i already won.

 

My personal opinions about auto potters are that they're just losers that can't play the damn game without a crutch.  They are trash tier players that are just being carried by gear and assets.  These same people also tend to just flock together and outnumber other guilds and then talk massive trash about how awesome they are and then cry cheats when ever they get beat.

 

 

I feel that we give the management a pretty hard time pretty consistently without full knowledge of their situation.  They have rules they have to follow on their end, and breaking that would cost them their IRL job.  Its their job to take the brunt of the community backlash on most issues, and i think we give them plenty enough already.  Quite frankly IRL > game, and we can't judge their actions without knowing if they have to make that kind of choices since we don't know everything.  The only thing we entitled to judge is the state of the game.
 

[needmorezleep]

actually as for cheats nodelay has been completely blocked for a year or 2 and titan for quite some time

also the last time we took away autopot from a high tier woe guild they somehow got first celled in pretrans of all things...not to sure how that happened

Edited by needmorezleep, 26 April 2015 - 02:53 AM.

[Myzery]

Rules only get enforced if you have damning proof and rally the community against whatever it is.

Insur just went nuts trying anything they could get away with and you and I got them perm banned twice, Xellie.

You had a clear video of the abuse the first time + no one really liked them.

The second time, we caught them duping and it was undeniable.

 

It also depends who you are. Guild leaders are almost exempt from having anything done to them.

Afrikan comes to mind and so does a guild leader that got caught buying zeny. Nothing happened there.

[Gn1ydnu]

@zleep. False. It just hasn't spread.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 26 April 2015 - 02:53 AM.

[needmorezleep]

unless you have direct access to the server it is not possible to bypass aedelays because of the way they are done

not that it matters for iro they arent even willing to invest in proper hosting/advertising i doubt theyd shell out the 300dolla for adelays

Edited by needmorezleep, 26 April 2015 - 02:57 AM.

[Xellie]

actually it was a jab at the rumors years ago about a GM sleeping with a guild leader in exchange for in-game services.  Someone wanted that footlong, if you know what i mean.

 

I personally believe that they are just tools, it all depends on the intent and implementation of it by the user.  I believe it is wrong to use these tools in a setting where you will get personal benefit from it such as in a woe environment or whatever.  However,  I have no problems against people using tools to help out the entire community as a whole, IE Rachel with ragnastats/botspot and inubashiri with section 9.

 

Plenty of great things was done with programs to help better the game.  How did you think people figured out how duping was done and reported it when it first came about?

 

As tempting as it was for me to use autopotting, i never used it simply because me and my friends never took woe seriously enough.  That and it was just cheaper to respawn. Would i consider it if i had near endless amount of supplies?  Probably, but if i had that much assets i wouldn't even play the WoE portion anymore because i already won.

 

My personal opinions about auto potters are that they're just losers that can't play the damn game without a crutch.  They are trash tier players that are just being carried by gear and assets.  These same people also tend to just flock together and outnumber other guilds and then talk massive trash about how awesome they are and then cry cheats when ever they get beat.

 

 

I feel that we give the management a pretty hard time pretty consistently without full knowledge of their situation.  They have rules they have to follow on their end, and breaking that would cost them their IRL job.  Its their job to take the brunt of the community backlash on most issues, and i think we give them plenty enough already.  Quite frankly IRL > game, and we can't judge their actions without knowing if they have to make that kind of choices since we don't know everything.  The only thing we entitled to judge is the state of the game.
 

 

Well we do agree with eachother then, and with enough pressure those rules they have to follow can be changed.

 

Look at RCX for example?

 

I agree that a/p is a crutch and makes for bad players. And also, a/p alone isn't entirely terrible. It changes the game and allows for a different style of play and I'm not sure which I prefer. Using a/p doesn't feel like RO to me.

 

HOWEVER. I must correct you about infinite supplies. People who use autopot use less supply as they don't over pot. (it still takes the same number of potions to fill your hp regardless of speed). When there are people like me who will pot even when not taking damage because I'm preempting it, I will use more potions than an autopotter.

 

The big issue here is global availability. There are some large plus sides to a/p like not getting RSI in pvm. I'd be alllll over that if it was allowed.

 

The other issue is that a lot of these autopot programs come with other nasty things. The most commonly shared ap incorporates a maya purple hack for example. There are others which contain things such as nodelay. Some spam packets, some spam keystrokes. I would rather there was one "mild" one that everyone accessed, than the google floodgates bringing the worse stuff.

 

 

It also depends who you are. Guild leaders are almost exempt from having anything done to them.

Afrikan comes to mind and so does a guild leader that got caught buying zeny. Nothing happened there.

 

God forbid you change emblem tho. That brings a ban instantly.

 

Edited by Xellie, 26 April 2015 - 03:01 AM.

[Myzery]

Hey emblems are srs business.

[Xellie]

Hey emblems are srs business.

 

I keep wanting to go emblemless to prove one sided enforcement, did you hear about how valk reported me for pneumaing myself against pulse strike at randgris and I was sent a warning in less than an hour?

 

But apparently it's ok for other people to eske the mvp when it's on our tank, because "they are trying to reflect it". I thought reflecting involved taking damage. GMs deny this tho.

 

I should just rename my guild to DC.

[schia]

 

HOWEVER. I must correct you about infinite supplies. People who use autopot use less supply as they don't over pot. (it still takes the same number of potions to fill your hp regardless of speed). When there are people like me who will pot even when not taking damage because I'm preempting it, I will use more potions than an autopotter.

 

The big issue here is global availability. There are some large plus sides to a/p like not getting RSI in pvm. I'd be alllll over that if it was allowed.

 

The other issue is that a lot of these autopot programs come with other nasty things. The most commonly shared ap incorporates a maya purple hack for example. There are others which contain things such as nodelay. Some spam packets, some spam keystrokes. I would rather there was one "mild" one that everyone accessed, than the google floodgates bringing the worse stuff.

 

girl, i definitely aint auto potting if my woe supply is 200 fatty whites and 50 strawberries. 

[Xellie]

that wont save you anyway, a/p or no

 

btw: did you know I can only carry 250 slims on my sinx at any one time?

Edited by Xellie, 26 April 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[schia]

that wont save you anyway, a/p or no

 

btw: did you know I can only carry 250 slims on my sinx at any one time?

 

stop carrying 5 megs and you might be able to carry more than 250 slims. 

 

For some reason i miss the times where our alt'd champ had to sit outside the castle to regen sp after each gfist.  Having to use sanc/heal so people could save pots made woe much more fun imo.

[Xellie]

Or having power chord up at the save point for infinite warps and sancs

 

And the days where I used to hand out 300 bombs per chemist (we only had 1 or 2) and they LIKED it.

 

guildies got 200 fatties each and I used 800 or so slims because I hunted those for myself and I deserved it for doing so.

 

and relogging to refresh recall because the timer would go away.

 

Edited by Xellie, 26 April 2015 - 03:41 AM.

[schia]

Or having power chord up at the save point for infinite warps and sancs

 

And the days where I used to hand out 300 bombs per chemist (we only had 1 or 2) and they LIKED it.

 

guildies got 200 fatties each and I used 800 or so slims because I hunted those for myself and I deserved it for doing so.

 

and relogging to refresh recall because the timer would go away.

 

having enough alt accounts for a slave duet team?  bourgeois scum. your kind isn't welcomed here.

[Xellie]

having enough alt accounts for a slave duet team?  bourgeois scum. your kind isn't welcomed here.

 

Actually, it was an alliance thing and we would designate people to warp duty weekly

[Mischelle]

My other complaint is that it isn't freely available, thus it isn't fair for those not connected.

 

A google search renders your point 100% invalid.  The first returned result for a cheating program directs you to a wiki of the most notorious one.  The programs to cheat are freely available, and you can access the source code yourself.

 

The "programming" ability to run them is less than it takes to make an lua script for a mercenary or homonculus.

 

Anyone can use them, so saying the game is unfair because not everyone has equal access to the cheats is an invalid point.  Players are only at different levels of access to cheats because of their own choice.  Fair enough if you choose not to, in fact, commendable.  Complaining about access imbalance is just dumb, though.

[Xellie]

 

 

A google search renders your point 100% invalid.  The first returned result for a cheating program directs you to a wiki of the most notorious one.  The programs to cheat are freely available, and you can access the source code yourself.

 

The "programming" ability to run them is less than it takes to make an lua script for a mercenary or homonculus.

 

Anyone can use them, so saying the game is unfair because not everyone has equal access to the cheats is an invalid point.  Players are only at different levels of access to cheats because of their own choice.  Fair enough if you choose not to, in fact, commendable.  Complaining about access imbalance is just dumb, though.

 

 

I'm sorry, what part of "create" did you read as "run"? Most of these aren't compatible with classic out of the box, so to speak.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

edit: they have to also know what to search for before they find something that works. My point is to make something available so they don't google for keyloggers or download mp hacks etc? durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

p.s: I kind of wish you'd stop addressing me. Your monoliths of text are designed only to argue points that were never up for discussion or to argue for arguments sake. It'd be passable if you actually read what was being said, but you're pretty much incapable of that too. Cheers m8

Edited by Xellie, 26 April 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[Kuyami]

Maybe people don't cheat to win, but they cheat because it is more fun?  Maybe some people think it is fun to hammer the potion button, and maybe some people think it's just a pain, and would rather spend their attention watching what is going on rather than stare at their HP bar.

 

As far as cheating goes, if there is no enforcement of prohibitions against certain actions, then anything the game will let you do is fair.  In fact, anything the game will let you do, you should do.  If the people who made the game didn't want the player to be able to do certain things, then the onus is on them to code the game so as to make those actions impossible.  It's their job to make sure the game works the way it is intended to.

 

If a programmer writes flawed code, they can't expect the user to just obey instructions to not use their program in a certain way.  Same as if an electrician fails wiring a switch so that it trips the breaker when used.  It isn't professional to make mistakes like that.  Xellie and company keep making these complaints against botters and cheaters.  Maybe you want to play on an empty server, if all your accused cheaters quit that's almost what you would have left.

 

Autopot doesn't do anything the actual game mechanics doesn't intend a player to be able to do.  Why do you have any complaint for people using it?  If it is because it means players that should normally be not difficult to beat are now extremely hard to beat, then complain about Ripped Cabus and kafra cards.  Increase weight limit was never an intended skill, and the ability to restock from anywere was never an intended function.  But now you can have infinite potions, which means you have infinite HP.

 

As an aside, RO's mechanics regarding HP have ALWAYS been that your maximum HP listed on your stat bar only relates to the maximum damage you can sustain in one hit.  Your true maximum HP is your HP bar PLUS all the healing items that you can carry, and that is because of the healing system RO uses.  Which means classes that have STR and VIT have more HP than classes that get INT and VIT.  But when every class gets +2000 weight, the mechanic is broken, its like giving 70 str for free.  Where's your complaint thread about that?

 

Why are you complaining about the work other people do to make the game more enjoyable for themselves and their friends, when the root of your problem is with the very game itself, Xellie?  The root of all the things that make you frustrated, is one hundred percent a factor of the game's mechanics, period.  If you can't find fault with the mechanics, then you've no justification for any bias against any kind of activity other players may take part in.

 

Autopot does do things that the game didn't intend: what is the in-game way to automatically refill your HP/SP when. You can't excuse people cheaty behaviour on the poor devs. Sure, for ndl, there could be server delays.

 

For autopot, what would be the solution, if you were the programmer? I'm puzzled myself, because I really like the healing system of RO, but I can't think of a good way to enforce it without watching the player's computer. I guess that is why most games change for the 1 big potion, long delay mechanics, where cheating like autopot wouldn't be useful.

 

~~~~~~~~~~

 

An idea to bandaid-fix autopotters and normal users on a more even field would be dissabling all healing items in castles, and adding a 'potting scroll' item.

 

This item, when used, would start healing the user as if he was spamming potions over certain time (few seconds). The item has a re-use delay equal to that many seconds.

 

Benefits:

 

1) The GMs don't have to recognize that there is a problem. We can just say it's another server custom feature.

2) Autopotting with that item is not a lot more useful compared to manual activation.

3) Unlike the '1 big potion, long delay' idea, it fits with the RO mechanic of taking sustained damage. you know, it's just as if you were manually potting.

 

You could make this item weight as much/consume slim white potions to be created.

[zerowon]

If to was actually serious like any major competitive gaming organization they would develop a add on client that scans the users active processes randomly collect screen shot data since ndl/grf edit would only show on the users pc but alas that will never happen as they have no interest in pouring a few hundred bucks to code it and maintain a server for the data to stream to

[Xellie]

4 more days!

[kingarthur6687]

If to was actually serious like any major competitive gaming organization they would develop a add on client that scans the users active processes randomly collect screen shot data since ndl/grf edit would only show on the users pc but alas that will never happen as they have no interest in pouring a few hundred bucks to code it and maintain a server for the data to stream to

 

Absolutely no piece of software has any business taking data of what's running on my system and sending it to god knows where, we call that sh*t spyware and we categorize it as malware for good reason.

[zerowon]

If ur used to the organizations like cal ,Cevo and twl all of there anti cheat clients log what processes are running to determine if it's a actualy windows process or a hack /cheat if your not comfertable with that then why use a cell phone even. You have no real privacy rights anyway

Edited by zerowon, 26 April 2015 - 03:31 PM.

[Mischelle]

I'm sorry, what part of "create" did you read as "run"? Most of these aren't compatible with classic out of the box, so to speak.

 

I'm not going to let you force me to look like an advert for cheaters, so all I am going to say is that you are 100% in the wrong.

 

Yes that is a reference to the thing she said that one time.

 

or was it 110% in the wrong?  I forget.  My point stands, though.

 

Autopot does do things that the game didn't intend

 

Autopot does things the GM's don't intend.  It does nothing to break the mechanics of the game.  Quite frankly, the best solution to the "problem" is to sanction the activity like RCX is, like editing your textures so that wizard AoE's don't white out the screen.

 

Many games are run side by side with 3rd party programs to make them more playable.  Dwarf fortress comes to mind as a specific example.  For RO, autopot does nothing but make it easier to survive WoE and PvE, making it more efficient as well.  If mostly everyone uses it, there's no big deal, a point Xellie has already made I believe.  Fights would last longer and be more fun.*

 

WoE isn't a matchup of the worlds greatest PvP tryhards.  Or maybe it is, but it shouldn't be.  WoE was introduced as a feature offered in the world of RO.  Now WoE is RO, and everything else revolves around it.  WoE is supposed to be entertainment, an activity where you and your guild go and fight as a group.  Whether there was a win or a loss is supposed to be irrelevant, because the purpose of WoE is to give a group of people something to do together.  WoE shouldn't be a contest of who can most accurately hammer the potion button.

 

*Though my standard of fun is when it is hard to beat someone, not when it is easy so... who knows...

[Xellie]

"Create"

 

I am not talking about the stupid bot program

 

TWO of these were MADE for Classic! BY CLASSIC GUILDS. Not hard to understand.

 

[Quanta]

Many games are run side by side with 3rd party programs to make them more playable.  Dwarf fortress comes to mind as a specific example.  For RO, autopot does nothing but make it easier to survive WoE and PvE, making it more efficient as well.  If mostly everyone uses it, there's no big deal, a point Xellie has already made I believe.  Fights would last longer and be more fun.*

It's a bit disingenuous to cite Dwarf Fortress as your example considering it's a single player game and therefore nobody really gives a damn if you cheat or use aids in it. You'd be better off citing aimbots and wallhacks for first-person shooters as an example...except those tools aren't sanctioned by their respective games either. I'm sure that, for the people that use them, it makes the game "fun" for them, but it comes at the cost of destroying the competitive aspect of those games for everyone else. It'd also be boring to watch at a tournament, so there's that.

[Scuba]

Xellie uses 3 autopots to play classic: Confirmed