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#101 PedroProplayer

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:34 AM

Throw Kunai was overpowered yes, but you could've just halved the damage and it would be good enough. It's the only good skill to level physical ninjas with. Going from overpoweredly broken to useless is too much.

Besides, the Throw Kunai nerf isn't really what rustles our jimmies. The fact that the Kagerou AoE skills were nerfed and that animations are not cancelling out after skill use is what really bothers us.
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#102 Kadelia

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 06:40 AM

You guys are throwing the word "useless" around as if you don't know what it means. Throw Kunai does similar damage to other 1st class skills now like Mammonite, bash, and Double Strafe.

Its perfectly useful for a 1st class to level to their next job.

The aoe nerf on kunai explosion is disappointing but not unexpected. Our in-game description always said 3x3, so you know the 5x5 was a mistake.

Edited by Jaye, 13 April 2013 - 06:42 AM.

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#103 MeisterKirisaki

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:19 AM

Throw Kunai does similar damage to other 1st class skills now like Mammonite, bash, and Double Strafe.

Its perfectly useful for a 1st class to level to their next job.

Ninja is the same as a Swordsman or any other first class? I guess they change to Kagerou/Oboro at 60'ish/50 too.

For someone who hasn't logged into RO for a month+, you seem to know a lot about the actual consequences of that latest patch.
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#104 Kadelia

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:02 PM

Many 2nd class characters reach 99 with a 1st class leveling skill.

For someone who has played RO for more than a month+ you are are pretty ignorant of the game's setup.
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#105 MeisterKirisaki

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:31 AM

Here's an idea of Throw Kunai's power (for those not interested in just words but ingame experience a.k.a. facts):

Oboro Level ~100 (comparable to a high level Ninja)
Target: Desert Wolf, Level 103, 150% damage from Fire property (realistic target for a high level Ninja to level on)

Good gear (not the best obviously, but probably better than most beginners would have access to)
Kunai: Water Element
high ATK weapon
~2.6k damage
Spoiler


carded RWC Knife + Accessory
~3.4k damage
Spoiler

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#106 Kadelia

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:56 AM

Here's an idea of Throw Kunai's power (for those not interested in just words but ingame experience a.k.a. facts):

Oboro Level ~100 (comparable to a high level Ninja)
Target: Desert Wolf, Level 103, 150% damage from Fire property (realistic target for a high level Ninja to level on)

Good gear (not the best obviously, but probably better than most beginners would have access to)
Kunai: Water Element
high ATK weapon
~2.6k damage

Spoiler


carded RWC Knife + Accessory
~3.4k damage
Spoiler

FYI thats no worse than the DPS of a level 100 sura lol.


I just tested it with my oboro and my damage isn't much higher, but I have no complaints with the damage.

I did some elite damage here:
Posted Image
(You should +12 your rwc knife.. as you can tell my extra upgrades completely replace your BSB)

That was with no buffs at all, not even VIP buffs. I even took off my bryn so you wouldn't complain it was boosting my damage through the roof. 4k damage is about spot on with what an average dancer, monk, blacksmith, hunter, or alchemist can do to a desert wolf. 3 Throw kunai per desert wolf to kill them. That's about the same as trying to level a 9x dancer to 100 with 4k or so damage double strafes-- been there, done that. With better gear (like using a BSB, or the bryn) I could 2 shot the wolves. But that's a bit much to expect from a normal player. Normal players would be able to do at least 3.2k throw kunai, which is still 3 ring tosses to kill the big bad wolf. But it'd be the same with a bard, monk, merchant-class etc, they'd need pretty leet gear to 2 shot the wolves.

Oh, and once you hit 100/1, you can grab earth charm, summon 9 of them, slap on a second weapon, and do this damage:
Posted Image

All the way up until you learn explosive kunai, which is quite good still:
Posted Image

TL;DR:
You're comparing the skill to how it was when determining if its good, not comparing it to other non-trans leveling skills up to 99.

Edited by Jaye, 14 April 2013 - 08:24 AM.

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#107 MeisterKirisaki

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:37 PM

You're comparing the skill to how it was when determining if its good, not comparing it to other non-trans leveling skills up to 99.

Who does? Certainly not me. If I'd consider a comparison, I'd compare it to Gunslingers (no idea about their DPS) or other Ninja skills. And if I'd find out that Ninja AoE skills are better than Throw Kunai now, then I'd probably conclude that Throw Kunai is useless.
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#108 LordVader

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:43 AM

99% of people don't commit murder so our legal system must be broken if it doesn't allow things that are bad for society... right? Your logic train is missing a few stops, chief. Just because something is prohibitive or inefficient to do doesn't mean its broken. it means it's not meant to work that way (usually for valid reasons!)

Throw Kunai was overpowered++++++. If you don't think throw kunai's 2 SP instant cast applies element twice never misses insane damage mod wasn't overpowered when I could do over 20,000 damage with a level 31/15 ninja and my 90+ core classes like mastersmith couldn't even do that much damage with their transcendent damage skills, you have a few screws loose. It needed to be nerfed and it got nerfed. And if you relied heavily on throw kunai as an oboro you need to delete your ragnarok online account because it was superceded in every way by kunai explosion, and kunai explosion still does massive damage.


So comparing making a good physical attack ninja to murder is a sound form of logic? lol You have had too many fruity pebbles. One is immoral and illegal (to put it lightly) the other is just fun and practical gameplay.

That is EXACTLY what broken is lol. So inefficient to the point that it's not even a practical means of leveling or anything else.

I already said that it could be considered broken in both forms of TK. However, this form is by far and away the most broken of the two.

If KE is soooo fricken fantastic for damage why was one of the major complaints about ninjas doing lex TK damages of 300k~ ? O that's right, because it was far and away stronger single target damage versus KE. Btw, I have already stated that I don't play an Oboro as I only have male accounts. Want to show how awesome the damage is, use a Kagerou and make me a believer.

It was definitely applying the elemental mod twice; Like you'd do ~5,000 on an elder (neutral) with wind kunai, and then do ~20,000 on a water monster in Overlook.


So if the issue was applying the elemental modifier twice, the fix should have been removing one of those elemental modifiers which would in turn HALF the damage to where it should have been. Yet the nerf was to 1/5 the damage. That's called an OVER NERF. By your broken logic the fix to a flat tire isn't to fix the flat but flatten all the tires on the car to make it balanced.

You guys are throwing the word "useless" around as if you don't know what it means. Throw Kunai does similar damage to other 1st class skills now like Mammonite, bash, and Double Strafe.

Its perfectly useful for a 1st class to level to their next job.

The aoe nerf on kunai explosion is disappointing but not unexpected. Our in-game description always said 3x3, so you know the 5x5 was a mistake.


It has already been plainly stated that the requirements to make it to 2nd job between tradiitonal classes and expanded classes is vastly different. That is a terrible comparison again to attempt to prove a bad point. Requirement for tradiitonal 2nd class is job 40-50, for ninja it is 99/70. Notice a difference?

Whether the AoE for KE was a mistake or not it was the right direction. It's more than obvious from rolling cutter that 3x3 aoe skills are a laugh when attempting to level effectively. Hence the reason physical K/O builds have been roundly dropped from most people's arsenal. IT IS JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLE DIFFICULT AND INEFFECTIVE FORM OF LEVELING.

Many 2nd class characters reach 99 with a 1st class leveling skill.

For someone who has played RO for more than a month+ you are are pretty ignorant of the game's setup.


/sigh So 2 out of 12 (Archer Branch) depend on 1st class skills to level. That's many?

Kight/Sader- BB/Brandish Spear/GC/Shield Boom/Sac/DA/SR
Wizard/Sage- Wiz AoE Magic/Hindsight/Heaven's Drive
Hunter/Bard/Dancer- Double Strafe/Arrow Shower
Assasin/Rogue- Grimtooth/Sonic Blow/Double Strafe (2nd Class skill for Rogue)/Intimidate/Backstab
Priest/Monk- Monk skills only as none are used for attacking from aco tree/Magnificat/Res/Sanctuary/ME/SW/LexA/Heal/Bless/Agi/KE/TU
Alchemist/Blacksmith- Cart Revo (Quest AoE Skill)/ Homun/Plant Summons/Bomb/Autocast Equips

FYI thats no worse than the DPS of a level 100 sura lol.


I just tested it with my oboro and my damage isn't much higher, but I have no complaints with the damage.

I did some elite damage here:
Posted Image
(You should +12 your rwc knife.. as you can tell my extra upgrades completely replace your BSB)

That was with no buffs at all, not even VIP buffs. I even took off my bryn so you wouldn't complain it was boosting my damage through the roof. 4k damage is about spot on with what an average dancer, monk, blacksmith, hunter, or alchemist can do to a desert wolf. 3 Throw kunai per desert wolf to kill them. That's about the same as trying to level a 9x dancer to 100 with 4k or so damage double strafes-- been there, done that. With better gear (like using a BSB, or the bryn) I could 2 shot the wolves. But that's a bit much to expect from a normal player. Normal players would be able to do at least 3.2k throw kunai, which is still 3 ring tosses to kill the big bad wolf. But it'd be the same with a bard, monk, merchant-class etc, they'd need pretty leet gear to 2 shot the wolves.

Oh, and once you hit 100/1, you can grab earth charm, summon 9 of them, slap on a second weapon, and do this damage:
Posted Image

All the way up until you learn explosive kunai, which is quite good still:
Posted Image

TL;DR:
You're comparing the skill to how it was when determining if its good, not comparing it to other non-trans leveling skills up to 99.


Comparing K/O to Sura is asanine at best. The Sura will QUICKLY be able to outclass the K/O as progression goes on. Yet that brings up an important aspect, the fact that you feel the need to compare it to 3rd classes to compare the damage dealt. As it should be on 3rd class damage considering the REQUIREMENTS FOR K/O ARE THE SAME AS ALL 3RD CLASSES. Killing stroke, rapid throw, and throw coins damage gets halved when applied to boss class monsters, sure you want to continue this sura comparison? Heaven forbid we have a ninja doing a whole 10k def piercing damage to Boss monsters with Throw Coins on a 5 second delay. TOOOOO OP.

Lol @ w/o buffs. Do you see your equipment? Gear yourself as though you don't have endless z and let me know how the damage comes out. Also make sure not to use your Oboro buffs as though everyone has them. On another side note, that Oboro seems to be a fairly high level and without knowing the damage formula, that too could be playing a factor into the damage for TK.

Comparing DS spam with a tremendously longer range and faster spammability to Ninja TK, OMFG I have seen it all. TK has a 1 second delay, there is no fricken comparison to DPS. DPS stands for Damage Per Second, not Damage Per Attack. Dancer will have killed the wolf before you even get to your second TK, how is that even comparable? Not to mention dancers have AoE leveling capability with Arrow Shower, they would probably just rather mob kill the wolves with no delay (1/10 of a second delay is not even worth mentioning). Let's compare the AoE of physical ninja with 3 second cast time, 3 second delay. Let's just assume the player is brain dead and can only cast 1 arrow shower per second, that's still 6 AS in a 5x5 AOE for 1500% damage (6x250%) whild you struggle out one Throw Humma in a 3x3 AoE for 900% damage.

Just stop it already.
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#109 TheSquishy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:14 AM

@Jaye

Can't help but notice your Oboro is decked out in a billion+ in equips.
Most players can't even fully gear their mains let alone buy gear for a class they are curious to just try.
TK nerf makes ninjas near unplayable for all but the most well established players.
Anyone starting the class post nerf will never make it to the point of being K/O with out being leeched/merc'd to 99..
Believe it or not, there are people that actually want to play their characters.
You seem to be generally insensitive to the needs of the player base and who knows why you insist on
mowing down those that choose to speak up for the concerns of the common player.
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#110 Kadelia

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:12 PM

@Jaye

Can't help but notice your Oboro is decked out in a billion+ in equips.
Most players can't even fully gear their mains let alone buy gear for a class they are curious to just try.
TK nerf makes ninjas near unplayable for all but the most well established players.
Anyone starting the class post nerf will never make it to the point of being K/O with out being leeched/merc'd to 99..
Believe it or not, there are people that actually want to play their characters.
You seem to be generally insensitive to the needs of the player base and who knows why you insist on
mowing down those that choose to speak up for the concerns of the common player.



How do people 99 monks and alchemists? Super novices? Blacksmiths? Battle Priests? Dancers, bards? Assassins?

Cart Revo does like 800 damage in the hands of a noob, and mammite about 1700. And you're complaining about 2000+ damage throw kunai?

Throw kunai in its current incarnation can actually out-damage some of the classes I listed above. Including ones I didn't, too, like sage. Seriously, I bet I could kill 2-3 monsters with the "nerfed" throw kunai before a wizard even finishes his SG cast. It's not useless. Its fair now.

Seriously. It's giving me a headache seeing people call throw kunai useless and that they want to quit RO because gravity "ruined" a class.

A ninja does ~2-3k with no delay with kunai -- super low SP cost, flip elements on the fly. ranged.
A sage does like, 3-5k damage with firebolt -- super long delay and cast time 1.5~3k thunderstorm, incredibly long cast time and delay.
monk does like 2~3k with their best combo-- high sp cost, spheres, unreliable, hard to changer element.
wizard does like 7-10k with their SG-- you'll probably mow down several enemies before they finish this super long cast with long delay.
blacksmith - best skill is mammonite which will do like 1700 in the hands of a noob-- you can outdamage this with even the 0.5 sec delay on throw kunai.
assassin - you will have no difficulty out damaging sonic blow or grimtooth with throw kunai. none. there is a 2 second or so animation after sb. and grimtooth does like 1/4 the damage of throw kunai.
rogue - best they can do is a low aspd double strafe which is about par with throw kunai.
dancer/bard - best they can do is a low aspd double strafe which is about par with throw kunai.
priest - throw kunai will outdamage heal bombing and battlepriest with noob gear.
supernovice -ninja wins hands down
gunslinger - might be better than ninja, but harder to exploit element.
hunter - will outdamage with a better ranged attack (DS) and an aoe (arrow shower)
knight - will outdamage with the bugged bowling bash that doubleprocs (but way more SP heavy than trow kunai, no elemental ease, and no range). bb is an aoe, this is one of the best leveling classes in classic too.
crusader - only on shadow/undead monsters is a crusader better at killing than a ninja and way more sp/gear intensive.

The only class that really trumps ninja is knight, and knight trumps the other classes just as well.

refresh my memory how ninja is "useless" and "ruined" when its competitive/average against these other nontrans grinding to 99?

And I feel the need to reiterate, the damage estimates above are for eden-gear toting people, not for people sporting elite gear.

Edited by VolunteerMod05, 16 April 2013 - 06:57 PM.

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#111 CharAznable

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

with all the fairness, I was annoyed when Throw Kunai got patched separately not because it was fixed(this fix again happened 2 years ago with kage/oboro implant). it was meant to be implanted because damage not being divided+150% from earth charm makes that one of the op skill to use. So adjustment was foreseen a while ago.
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#112 FSky5

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 12:37 AM

@Jaye

what...? I can literally level faster than a ninja and more efficient with 3/4th of the classes you mentioned. And yes, I do have a ninja.
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#113 LordVader

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 04:36 AM

@Jaye

what...? I can literally level faster than a ninja and more efficient with 3/4th of the classes you mentioned. And yes, I do have a ninja.


Dude Jaye has to simply be trolling, noone can be that dumb and think they are smart.
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#114 Kadelia

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:33 PM

@Jaye

what...? I can literally level faster than a ninja and more efficient with 3/4th of the classes you mentioned. And yes, I do have a ninja.

Prove it. Show my your eden gear equipped assassin that can out-dps a noob ninja, or whatever.

[TRANSLATED TEXT] Dude I am so furious Jaye is making me look stupid and I am grasping at straws because her competence that makes my kicking and screaming look embarrassing really frustrates me. So I am going to pretend she is the dumb one instead of me.[/TRANSLATED TEXT]

Not my problem. Stay out of the kitchen if you can't handle the heat or whatevs you know!

Edited by Jaye, 16 April 2013 - 01:38 PM.

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#115 VolunteerMod05

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 06:59 PM

Knock it off with the direct insults please. Thank you.
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#116 Kadelia

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:05 PM

Why is my post missing but not the one I responded to? That's not even handed.
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#117 BlkWidowAlchemis

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:54 AM

SO I am working on a ninja myself from scratch, started yesterday, trying to over come the terrible nerfs etc... My personal opinion and mind set is to adapt and over come, but the nerf of kunai seems meh... I do admit I enjoyed power leveling 1-99 in a day, in fact it was the most thrilling thing ever. Even comparing I have nearly played every single class in the game. Sitting for about 2 weeks with vip and leveling to trans and then to 3rd is boring. Even so that much of the fun stuff is late game. 

 

I do believe ninja class was suppose to be on par with trans classes (hence the job 70?), no?  As well kagerou is suppose to be on par with 3rd classes (hence the 150/50)?

The damage seems decent from my understanding as kagerou ( from testing in sakray)

 

As for the formula for throw kunai, I believe the size modifier applies now. Using a +6 stiletto on bigfoot (level 19/23) <20 str and 13 dex> I am hitting relatively lower damage compared to andres, pierres etc in ant hell. <http://www.eternalda...010#pid=2095829>

<http://www.eternalda...010#pid=2095828>

 

If you cannot see these My damage ranges from 175/175/175 and 182/182/182 on big foot

and 244/244/244 to 262/262/262 on andres and pierre using heat wave kunai. 

Here is the link to the original classic wiki TK <http://irowiki.org/classic/Throw_Kunai>

I would like to try to figure this out to actually plan around this, and to me (in sakray) it feels that kunai is mainly attributed to str, and not dex? I am not 100% sure, in the main server.


Edited by BlkWidowAlchemis, 09 September 2013 - 11:05 AM.

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#118 Facekiller

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:31 PM

kunai has always been about overall atk and not dex.... dex really was more for huuma attacks since they can miss and have a cast time...


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#119 YangeWenli

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:58 PM

why dont ppl move on to throw huuma?You can raise the base dmg up to 1170% and can have two archer skel for 20% more range dmg o-o.


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#120 Facekiller

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:54 PM

throw huuma has a cast time, its a very small aoe, ground target, has a 3 sec cooldown... and requires you to equip a 2 handed humma vs dagger and shield... and the damage is still underwhelming


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