230 replies to this topic

[StormHaven]

At 5k ice resistence I'm only seeing about <100less damage vs 1.8k element ice. It took Shazam full legend +20 elga and 10* multi-resistance cards(He's sitting at 35k resistence)  to achieve enough resistance to cancel out 1.85k attack. Now think about that for a second.... I have no 6* and it took all of that to even cancel out the generic element offense set w/out having a single 6* card.

[mag727]

to give an example: rare elga set gives 3k element resistance in 4 elements.  you have 7 pieces of armor which allow you to socket element resistance cards.  although with 2 pieces of armor allowing for attack (shoes,gloves) so you are left with 5 pieces of armor to socket if you want to save 2 for attack cards. 

 

rare elga set = 3k resistance x4 elements 

4 star 4 element socket cards at level 61-70 = 423x4 elements

 

it would be safe to assume that 71-80 4* 4 elements give significantly more resistance but lets average it at 500 element resistance for this calculation (it would be more)

 

500x4 elements x 5 sockets = 2.5k element resistance(4) + 3k element resistance(4).

 

but let's not forget that 50% bonus from the rare elga set.  this also applies to 4 element cards!

 

50% of the 2500 element resistance from 5 sockets = 1250 element resistance on top of the 2.5k

 

1250 + 2500 + 3000 = 6750 element resistance.

 

and it's been done.

 

[mag727]

damage reduced by element has to be removed from the combined m/pattk of the player. there's nothing currently in the game which differentiates p/m attk from element attack other than perfect seal.  in order to full test your theory use a priest and cast perfect seal. 

 

perfect seal removes all p/mattk damage but is damaged by element attacks.  before you theorize that resistance is broken do your research.

[StormHaven]

damage reduced by element has to be removed from the combined m/pattk of the player. there's nothing currently in the game which differentiates p/m attk from element attack other than perfect seal.  in order to full test your theory use a priest and cast perfect seal. 

 

perfect seal removes all p/mattk damage but is damaged by element attacks.  before you theorize that resistance is broken do your research.

 

This is was my experiment using Shazam as the constant. Since he had 36k ice resistance at the time.

44,49,6-,34,53- 0 element( Vanilla level49 bow)
19,22,19,19,25 -192 element( Level 49 Bow with element sockets added to gloves/boots)

21,51,148(crit),292(crit)317(crit)-  1459 element( +20/Legend Ice elga bow with Accessory set+Sockets)

4404 attack- lvl 49 weapon
25547attack- lvl 77 Element Elga weapon

[mag727]

element resistance works very much like p/mdef resistance only on a smaller scale.  i find it almost ridiculous u tested element attack vs. resistance that only a GM would be able to obtain. however it does prove my first statement.

 

while you might see resistance at 1-2k  levels pointless, that is hardly the case once you reach 6k+. much like paris wings evening out the odds in bsq pre element granting near invincibility for sorcerers,pallys,evade ninjas, and priest classes.

 

i would prefer if you ask yourself in what scenario you are honestly complaining about.  would it be better to have the pvp/bsq situation we had pre element where any health/stacked classes with heal or evade were invincible because of pdef/mdef (only killable by pile jumping with other players). or do you prefer it now where you actually have a chance at killing those classes because of element attack?

 

There are two very frank reasons as to why players complain about element attack.  

 

1. ignorance

2. lack of information given to community by devs/gms/staff.  

 

 

[StormHaven]

The information known about elements right now is this.

 

Element attack adds flat damage that ignores defense,pdd,mdd, and skills that reduce both such as barrier and perfect seal.

 

Element attack is reduced by Resistance and Block.

Element attacks all normal attack modifying skills(Smareshot,diffussion cannon,shootdown,snipe,final decision,etc) and not summoned skills(Blizzard,traps,Spin it bear, etc)

 

Element resistance lowers Total damage and not just Element damage.

 

The biggest reason people complain about elements is because the amount of resistance you need to balance them is near unobtainable currently and the skills that are affected by them become tremendous overpowered(See Hlt/Attack speed stacking invokers,summoners). Lets say as an Invoker you get 2k Ice attack you now deal X+6k damage to everyone, you're opponent as 8k ice resistence and lets say it lowers that much by 40%. you're still doing X+3.6k damage every time you hit X. You can say the same thing about sentinels the 3rd biggest element abusers Shootdown in that case would be doing (X+3.6k)*15, Ice Shower (X+3.6k)*25 and on and on.

 

 

edit: People went from hitting 100s to 5ks(high end crits) with high HP/def to 2k+normal attacks and low health/high def.

Edited by StormHaven, 05 September 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[ohsnap]

3k resistance reduces around 200-300 elementwe an get 3k-4k element dmg max with current updates (elga weapon, 6 * cards and element accessories) but we can barely resistance even half of that even with the new hero set release 2k per hit is still game breaking. Until they rework the resistance formula it won't be as effective as your paris wing analogy.

[mag727]

the only reason it isn't effective is because the means of reaching that level of resistance is extremely time consuming and pretty nonexistent.  if everyone who farmed element chose resistance card boxes over attack boxes we'd have a different story.  

 

the 4 protection spirits a day doesn't help the situation either. 

[mag727]

by level of resistance i mean 10k+ which is about 70% reduction.

 

but that is only counting element damage, not pattk/mattk. like i said, for you to fully understand what i'm so eloquently trying to point out, to actually see your element damage vs resistance in black and white, use a priests perfect seal skill and add/remove resistance accordingly and see for yourself how much element damage is nullified according to the resistance stat, then tell me that resistance is broken (try multiple levels, 2k 3k 4k 5k etc.). 

 

1. just because you don't stack it doesn't mean its broken or needs to be reworked.

2. anything worth stacking takes maximum effort; remember agi/evade ninjas?  are you telling me all ninjas had crazy amounts of evade? or was it just a small amount of them that poured in huge amounts of resources to achieve those heights in stats?

 

the conclusion is; if you want to achieve an insane level of element resistance or attack, start farming.

 

 

[VolunteerMod02]

Please try not to double post, its against the forum rules.

[Coolsam]

the only reason it isn't effective is because the means of reaching that level of resistance is extremely time consuming and pretty nonexistent.  if everyone who farmed element chose resistance card boxes over attack boxes we'd have a different story.  

 

the 4 protection spirits a day doesn't help the situation either. 

.

6 Hero Galaxia: +2500+60% 4-element resistance = 4,000 4-element resistance before sockets.

6* Element resist cards and above get additional resistance based on the character's defense/m-defense. So you'd need the majority of your armor +16-20 to get any real benefit from that. As well as defense/m-defense buffs

4-element accessories (level 60) can give a similar resistance to a 6* card but only in the physical defense. Also the earrings and belt come with upto 600 resistance each.

 

Now then, you noted the sheer horrific drop rate of a 6*+ card regardless of attack or resistance. Now imagine finding the resistance cards to mix and match a perfect 4-element defense combination. Also take into account that we have no idea if 6*+ cards will even be available for Level 81-90 gear. A 6* 71-80 attack card was seen (Not saying by who to respect privacy), but imagine the horrific grind it took to get it.

 

Resistances aren't difficult to stack up. If you plan on stacking a specific element. But the smart choice with element attack is to mix up your attack (Why 4/5-element cards are in great demand). In case the resistance of your foe is too high in a particular element. So the idea is to resist every element.

 

Storm's resistance testing was on a GM but it does give an idea of the extreme level it'd take to go toe to toe with someone that has immense element attack and still be able to survive. This is why a formula re-work for elements is needed. Sure if a player spent the time grinding 5,000+ 4-element resist then he should be able to hold his own against the +20 Element elga w/ 3 accessories w/ solars and 5-6*+ element attack card boosted Invoker or Summoner. But that's not the case. Even in full Rare Elga with great resist cards you would never be able to hold against that sort of damage from just getting frozen and watching a class rapid-tap the X key and managing to down you faster than any class could ever manage to pull off.

Edited by Coolsam, 05 September 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[Rimmy]

Even if you forget about the elemental attack vs. elemental resistance argument, elemental attack is still inherently imbalanced. Invokers and summoners can sit there spamming element-infused attacks at an alarming rate (to the point where they can easily deal 10K+ damage in a few seconds), gaining far greater benefit from it than pretty much any other class.

 

It's even further imbalanced for invokers, because it ignores the reduction nerf for x-spam that was intended to limit x-spam's continuous damage in PvP and force invokers to do more than just x-x-x-x-x enemies into oblivion. I already mentioned this to Shazam and hopefully the developers do something about it eventually, b/c as it is now elemental attack basically makes the two strongest "support-type" classes in the game the two most effective damage-dealers, as well, which is just plain silly.

 

If we have to have elements involved in PvP than so be it, but IMO it should be a far more limited form of  "bonus damage" used to supplement normal ATK/MATK, not the single most efficient source of damage in PvP, because that makes ATK/MATK kind of pointless. Heck, you don't even really need to enchant a weapon anymore to deal decent damage in PvP. That has to tell you something is wrong.

 

As for 70% elemental damage reduction, I'll believe it when I see it. I only have about 1.5K elemental attack max, and I typically do about 1.8K-2K total damage per attack against stacked players (this includes ATK/MATK and elemental damage) but I have yet to face anyone with enough resistance to lower my total damage below 1K.

[StormHaven]

don't forget 7-10* multi-element offense cards exist which give 2.8k+ flat on top of % magic and % phyical to element boost. No amount of resistance will save you from even a single 10*  element card, A gm with max resistance cards could barely stack enough to cancel just 2k element attack.

[ShazamO]

BTW, any word on whether Galaxia Part 2 is going to involve further changes to Aim Rate, Evade Rate, Critical Rate, Critical Damage and Block Rate? I thought I heard something to that effect a while back but I haven't heard anything since.

 

We have received as for now, updated stats for: Aim, Evade, Crit Success rate, Evade, Block, Max Crit, and Max Crit Damage.

 

We'll keep you updated.

[Rimmy]

Sounds good, thanks for the information.

[Endbringer]

I really hope int/str changes and itemization changes for set bonuses are on the dev teams list of things to do.

[Albruna]

I really hope int/str changes and itemization changes for set bonuses are on the dev teams list of things to do.

Evade on Summoner and Sorcerer sets for example.

[Apocryphos]

anyone else noticed the description of the weapon is the samething as normal elga weapons? ;D?

[VolunteerMod02]

anyone else noticed the description of the weapon is the samething as normal elga weapons? ;D?

 

Yes, its a known error and its supposed to be fixed when we get the patch.

[Apocryphos]

While were talking about destroyers.

Just gonna push for a buffer destroyer just cause I'm switching to that class.

I'd love to see

• Carpet Bombing destroy all AOE moves on the field. kinda like it destroys the field basically it destroys all the floor moves.& a lower cooldown(Traps, Magnet, Quagmire etc) with a launching effect similar to ambush.
• Additional Bombing -> Upgrade it to add another wave of bombs.
• Crux Shot adds final critical success rate, and gets a counter like amplification for Overlord.
• Maybe Aerial Flurry could be buffed so it's based on attack speed. and have buffs from random shot or two-action shot.
• AutoShotSystem Upgrade make it so it increases its hit frequency. lvl1 being the slowest hit frequency and lvl 5 being the fastest hit frequency.(at the moment lv1 is enough to enough to upgrade the speed 2-5 are just for additional damage)
• Focus should add final critical rate success
• Caused bomber should give a higher curse rate(level of curse status) considering its far more difficult to land a grenade than deathbound.
• Sniping to be readjusted to its description which snipe 2 standing or fallen enemies 6 times with twice the accuracy.[meaning Sniping can attack 2 enemies 6 times each.]
• maybe upgrade atropine to cure 2 inflicted statuses instead of one.
• Make Flashbang a wide stun that has blind effect[by giving it stun it's prevents the opponent from moving otherwise they lagwalk more often. (I noticed this from my transition from pally to ninja, stuns do not start lag walk)
• H.E Gernade to act similar to dagger causes knockdown.
• Composite too add a shrapnel effect that causes serious bleeding simiilar to dashing blow for overlord but without the high launch.
• Revert homing missle to launch air bound enemies.
• Accelerator tuning turned into a missile mastery where you can launch 5 missles in unison.similar to Ninja's Dagger Mastery(might be asking for too much)
• Make Camouflage uncancelled by players movement.
• Make fire gernade deplete enemy mana instead of burning (lv1 causes 10% of current mp to be depleted lvl 5 causes 50% of current MP to be depleted) (since n2 provides lvl 20 burning at 99% chance during a crit)
• Make nuclear a short stun and launch skill seeing how easily it is to dodge considering length of animation.
• Make Soporific (chain combo move that throws soporific on the floor to cause stun) to work on fallen enemies.
• Make Particle Cannon Hit frequency higher and add knockback and knockdown effect.

Find me In-Game IGN: Chartemis (combo active destroyer)

Edited by Apocryphos, 09 September 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[Coolsam]

While were talking about destroyers.

Just gonna push for a buffer destroyer just cause I'm switching to that class.

I'd love to see

• Carpet Bombing destroy all AOE moves on the field. kinda like it destroys the field basically it destroys all the floor moves.& a lower cooldown(Traps, Magnet, Quagmire etc)
• Crux Shot adds final critical success rate, and gets a counter like amplification for Overlord.
• Maybe Aerial Flurry could be buffed so it's based on attack speed. and have buffs from random shot or two-action shot.
• AutoShotSystem Upgrade make it so it increases its hit frequency. lvl1 being the slowest hit frequency and lvl 5 being the fastest hit frequency.
• Focus should add final critical rate success.
• Caused bomber should give a higher curse rate considering its far more difficult to land a grenade than deathbound.
• Sniping to be readjusted to its description which snipe 2 standing or fallen enemies 6 times with twice the accuracy.[meaning Sniping can attack 2 enemies 6 times each.]
• maybe upgrade atropine to cure 2 inflicted statuses instead of one.
• Make Flashbang a wide stun that has blind effect[by giving it stun it's prevents the opponent from moving otherwise they lagwalk more often. (I noticed this from my transition from pally to ninja, stuns do not start lag walk)

Find me In-Game IGN: Chartemis

 

• Carpet bomb buff would be intriguing. But at it's casting time it's not difficult to interrupt for the classes it counters hard.
• I believe it does have a counter for Crux Shot. I mean I'm sure it did crit-boost 5/6 of my sniping shots.
• Aerial Flurry needs a huge buff. It became obsolete with Shootdown buff.
• Autoshot I believe has an attack-frequency passive at the Specialist tree. Or is that damage only?
• Not sure about Focus. It could help CR-builds.
• +1 to the Caused bomber buff. Though it's harder to land due to the lack of guaranteed catches destroyers have.
• Sniping's description's inaccuracy has been there since it's release in Kryos Unleashed. Originally players thought it'd be an absolute counter to evade. Like say 500 AIM Destroyer snipes at 1000 AIM instead. However at the skill's sheer raw power. 1 target per shot should be ok. I agree with the double accuracy part still. Aim/Evade is about to receive another edit.
• Atrophine needs to properly cure statuses. There are a good number of statuses I can't cure with it. Two statuses would help greatly with Quagmires, Stumblebum+Curse combination, Woodrush, and Sentinel bounce traps.
• Flashbang is getting an AoE buff and a fallen enemies hit buff. Flash-bang's lag walk should just be fixed in general. It's stun isn't 100% as well it seems to cancel the moment the opponent is hit.

I aint too great as a Destroyer. But I've fought as one and against em alot.

[Lujia]

While were talking about destroyers.

Just gonna push for a buffer destroyer just cause I'm switching to that class.

I'd love to see

• Carpet Bombing destroy all AOE moves on the field. kinda like it destroys the field basically it destroys all the floor moves.& a lower cooldown(Traps, Magnet, Quagmire etc) with a launching effect similar to ambush.
• Additional Bombing -> Upgrade it to add another wave of bombs.
• Crux Shot adds final critical success rate, and gets a counter like amplification for Overlord.
• Maybe Aerial Flurry could be buffed so it's based on attack speed. and have buffs from random shot or two-action shot.
• AutoShotSystem Upgrade make it so it increases its hit frequency. lvl1 being the slowest hit frequency and lvl 5 being the fastest hit frequency.(at the moment lv1 is enough to enough to upgrade the speed 2-5 are just for additional damage)
• Focus should add final critical rate success
• Caused bomber should give a higher curse rate(level of curse status) considering its far more difficult to land a grenade than deathbound.
• Sniping to be readjusted to its description which snipe 2 standing or fallen enemies 6 times with twice the accuracy.[meaning Sniping can attack 2 enemies 6 times each.]
• maybe upgrade atropine to cure 2 inflicted statuses instead of one.
• Make Flashbang a wide stun that has blind effect[by giving it stun it's prevents the opponent from moving otherwise they lagwalk more often. (I noticed this from my transition from pally to ninja, stuns do not start lag walk)
• H.E Gernade to act similar to dagger causes knockdown.
• Composite too add a shrapnel effect that causes serious bleeding simiilar to dashing blow for overlord but without the high launch.
• Revert homing missle to launch air bound enemies.
• Accelerator tuning turned into a missile mastery where you can launch 5 missles in unison.similar to Ninja's Dagger Mastery(might be asking for too much)
• Make Camouflage uncancelled by players movement.
• Make fire gernade deplete enemy mana instead of burning (lv1 causes 10% of current mp to be depleted lvl 5 causes 50% of current MP to be depleted) (since n2 provides lvl 20 burning at 99% chance during a crit)
• Make nuclear a short stun and launch skill seeing how easily it is to dodge considering length of animation.
• Make Soporific (chain combo move that throws soporific on the floor to cause stun) to work on fallen enemies.
• Make Particle Cannon Hit frequency higher and knockback and knockdown.

Find me In-Game IGN: Chartemis (combo active destroyer)

just a suggestion for the future improvement of the class.

• Carpet bombing - make it no dial/talking animation.. because it takes time to cast and not worth much on pvp because hiding status is banned on pvp (miss the old game) when it cast enemy can easily launch you to the air (add the changing of costume into a soldier when using that skill) the quicker the call the quicker the fire.
• Additional bombing - +1
• Crux shot - make it long duration .. Casting Crux per attack is so much work (seen overlords and pathfinders pure crit buffs)
• Areal fury - +1
• AutoshotSystem - the higher the level the longer the range is (add the rapid fire mode[make our atkspd work on it]) , (Also I suggest tank can fire upward) , (if possible make tank follow its user like a pet if there is no target)
• caused bomber - +1
• Sniping - I'm fine with sniping coz an assassin always 1 target on sniper gun.
• Atropine - +1 (can be used even its silence)
• Flashbang - +1 that might be the answer to the flashbang bug! either way its good even if its non-stun as long as it stops enemy from smashing me.
• H.E - +1
• Composite - +1
• Homing missile - YESSS DAT! +1! (Bringing back the game what it used to be , make it a higher CD to avoid infinite loop air locking a CD like 10~15sec)
• Accelerator tuning - make the explosive bigger for high AoE
• Camouflage - +1 and hiding status make it back on pvp
• Fire grenade - Well its good if they have separated burn status aside from N2 (3rd degree and 4th degree burn)
• Soporific - This stun should be on the skill list. (fist stun of destroyers without chain combo)
• Two action shot - since the animation of it is like firing a bolt bullet make a curse like no attacking for a few seconds when affected by it.
• Gatling - add range (it feels like melee now lol) and can be cancelled like snipe when moved.
• Vulcan300 - fix the lag when it summoned.
  
  i am hoping that the H.E bug will be fixed on the patch. (Forgot to include it on the bug reporting thread)
  it drops slowly when ambush + Sky penetration(in short when ur way to high) it drops the grenade like matrix mode lol at might affect other grenades as well. 

Edited by Lujia, 09 September 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Apocryphos]

Crux has a counter apparently.

Carpet Bombing would be too op if it were instant cast. that's why i didn't mention it. which is why i asked for a launch behavior similar to ambush. considering its current cast time that should be efficient. 4 hits + field clear for 1.5 seconds (and a light level super armor like death bound[resistant to flinches but not to knockdowns and launches]

 

AutoShot System Upgrade is fine as it is i'd enjoy it if it had same cooldown to duration and faster bullets.( since i use it to save my but from receiving full ghost fighter.) Nice idea on how the autoshot system should follow you kinda like thunder break. which is cool and all i wouldn't mind it but that'd be in place of a higher attack frequency.

Gatling is fine as good skill after soporific. super high splash dps. it'd be nice if it had a similar super armor effect to deatbound  skills resist flinching but not knockdown and launches.

Two Action Shot if it flinched like random shot it'd be perfect. maybe if other arrows penetrated as well it'd be just perfect.

Vulcan 300 is fine as is. it goes through enemies just as I like it.

Soporific is fine being in chain combo can't have lazy destroyers not willing to use chain combo just cause the combo is to hard to perform just make it hit fallen enemies.

Chain combos in general via class

Mages - Super armor ability+ knockback ability(destroys super armor)

Warriors - Knockback ability as well as stunning ability (also destroys super armor) (includes hitting enemy on the floor)

Thieves- knockback skills only.slight super armor at speed higher than 200%.

Archers-  Anomalous combo's a bit higher on the difficulty leveled compared to other classes. does not provide any level of super armor unless only spamming x at given speeds of 250% or higher. rolling, fliping sliding, should give a light super armor that resists flinches but does not prevent launches.

 

Comparing Arrow Speeds to the sister class sentinels destroyers got the lower end of the stick. a Sentinel could say but cross bows are stronger, given the fact that we do not have advance bow mastery that adds percentage attack bonuses nor does destroyer have a skill that reduces defense via long range. I don't see how and why cross bows should be slower than sentinels.

Click here to see the difference LINK

Edited by Apocryphos, 09 September 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[Lujia]

Chain combo's are good.

but what is the stun of Destro if they can just trow a knock down or stun or freezing infront of you
unless on chain combo they perform the stun on the first or the second attack.

completing the attack is much time even if it has a good range they can easily catch you.

[StormHaven]

Might want to wait to see how the new flashbang plays out. Having a wider AoE and being usable in air is major boost to that skill and destroyer combos overall.