57 replies to this topic

[RiketzKarlom]

Granted, it already has a 2 minute duration and 10 minute cooldown, it lasts through most boss fights anyway, and is what allows a Crescentia to not be kited as easily in PvP. It's also worth mentioning that the skill description gives no mention of its 2 minute duration. Some might say that a toggle instead of having a time limit, for this skill, would be OP, as is always the case being on the outside looking in, but consider the following: The class's base defense. The buff essentially puts Crescentia's damage mitigation on par with an unbuffed light-medium armor class, and the damage buff still doesn't put them on par with other non-tanky DPS classes, especially others that have no self heal. The defense bonus from crits =/= direct damage mitigation, and is essentially the class's version of a full party buff. As for the damage and movement speed boosts, that barely puts them almost on par with Assassin. Any other given DPS class has buffs that do some measure of these things as a toggle, and the end result is the same balance as Awake Darkness being active. This would do wonders for class balance, at least among primarily melee DPS characters. Thank you for your consideration.

 

Edit : Do at least read page 1 of this thread, as a lot of counter-arguements that are being brought up have already been addressed several times over. Thank you.

Edited by RiketzKarlom, 10 October 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[SoraOfKHK]

It sounds good to me. Assassins get a toggle with a similar effect, though ours has a bonus for parties. However, that party bonus isn't enough of a reason to not make it a toggle, since it's a somewhat useless one because we're screwed without Agi cards and Agi runes, because we lack Agi on gear. Thus, without those items, our Crit rate is laughable.

 

Furthermore, yes, we have a very powerful skill usable only in Awake: Darkness mode, but that skill has a 10 second cool-down, and the main power of it is dependent on party members and stacks up to 5 party members, for a total of 155% (10% per party member within a 10m range, including yourself) Magic Attack damage. So, in reality, at best, if we're alone (in Colo, or soloing), our damage is 105% Magic Attack damage with that skill, plus 30% additional damage due to the form.

 

Assassins get 3 decent skills to use in their transformed state.

 

So, just put it on the same restrictions as Shadow Form, with the 3 second cool-down after use.

Edited by SoraOfKHK, 07 October 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[raela]

So then what, toggle for Cres but not SM? Hrm..

 

The duration is actually 3 minutes (it shows as 3 for one second, then hits 2:59 and shows as 2). I've been leveling a SM, not a Cres, so I don't know how different their form/attack is set up.. but I for one think it should be left as is. Immunity is a very nice skill, but I feel it'd be overpowered if I could spam it always. Sure, 10s cd.. but with haste/vigor, that will go quite a ways down. It adds an extra dimension to playing the Noel classes.. figuring when the best time to pop awakening.

 

I'm not convinced that this would be a good/needed change. Assassins lack the all of the utility Cres has - you have all of the DoTs/AoEs to fall back on, whereas a sin without shadow form is quite sad. It's kinda hard to compare their forms. For dungeons, if you're clearing in between bosses, you likely have time to use forms for each, in many cases. You could always use guardians on rotation, too.. I highly recommend duoing Cres + SM with max form + level 3 guardian sometime. So fun, and so crazy.

[Leinzan]

The only thing I would like is for the form to persist after death :V!!

Since if you die in colo, you automatically lose it and still have to wait for it to cooldown...

 

Certainly this skill makes the power rush O___o;;

[RiketzKarlom]

So then what, toggle for Cres but not SM? Hrm..

 

The duration is actually 3 minutes (it shows as 3 for one second, then hits 2:59 and shows as 2). I've been leveling a SM, not a Cres, so I don't know how different their form/attack is set up.. but I for one think it should be left as is. Immunity is a very nice skill, but I feel it'd be overpowered if I could spam it always. Sure, 10s cd.. but with haste/vigor, that will go quite a ways down. It adds an extra dimension to playing the Noel classes.. figuring when the best time to pop awakening.

 

I'm not convinced that this would be a good/needed change. Assassins lack the all of the utility Cres has - you have all of the DoTs/AoEs to fall back on, whereas a sin without shadow form is quite sad. It's kinda hard to compare their forms. For dungeons, if you're clearing in between bosses, you likely have time to use forms for each, in many cases. You could always use guardians on rotation, too.. I highly recommend duoing Cres + SM with max form + level 3 guardian sometime. So fun, and so crazy.

Considering that SM gets a self heal and Cresc does not, it's quite a bit less OP on Cresc. The 10 second CD skill is dependant on being in a party, and doesn't pull as much damage as a Ranger or Assassin could solo, even if spammed. There's no balance issue that attack remaining as is in PvP, and in dungeons it would allow Cresc to be able to have a ranged damage skill every 10 sec, because it's pretty much needed. Assassin has a -constant- move speed bonus, so they can keep up with raid bosses and keep the damage up, while a Cresc is more squishy and slow most of the time. It's not at all fair to say "but they have some ranged attacks, so keep them underperforming." It's not an OP defensive spam like Immunity, it's simply a damaging attack with a 2 sec cast and range. The balance is there with SM and makes sense, does not on Cresc.

[Leinzan]

Well, the problem is that, that little skill that does nothing but damange actually is of a 115% (since you yourself count as a party member) plus the 30% from the form, add to that the range of 15m and cooldown of 10 seconds... and the fact that Cres' MATK is still gimped, it would mean a cheap strike of 2.5k every 10 seconds O___o (if not more for less)

 

If the form were toggled, this skill would require a serious nerf like an increased cooldown.

 

also, Cres and Soulmakers are twin classes, if the toggle were to be implemented for one it should happen aswell on the other o___O

[SoraOfKHK]

The duration is actually 3 minutes (it shows as 3 for one second, then hits 2:59 and shows as 2).

Just timed it on a Crecentia using the Daily Rewards timer as a timing device. Started Awake: Darkness at 59:07, ended at 56:16.

 

That's 2 minutes, 51 seconds. That still doesn't change the fact that the Cool-Down is 5 minutes, 9 seconds, assuming that it is actually 8 minutes due to Vigor when the Cool-Down starts (like the game says it is), despite that the Cool-Down is actually on 6 minutes when Awake: Darkness ends.

 

More than likely, it's actually 6 minutes, 9 seconds, but I'd have to time the Cool-Down to test that. This would mean the Cool-Down is actually 9 minutes, but switches to 8 at 8 minutes, 59 seconds, which is how most Cool-Downs in this game work.

 

Granted, this is just my own personal Cool-Down. Maybe other people with more Vigor than me could have it reduced even more?

 

 

Edit: Just tested it again. Seems the Cool-Down does end on exactly 6 minutes, because it switches to 5 one second after.

 

Well, the problem is that, that little skill that does nothing but damange actually is of a 115% (since you yourself count as a party member) plus the 30% from the form, add to that the range of 15m and cooldown of 10 seconds... and the fact that Cres' MATK is still gimped, it would mean a cheap strike of 2.5k every 10 seconds O___o (if not more for less)

 

If the form were toggled, this skill would require a serious nerf like an increased cooldown.

 

also, Cres and Soulmakers are twin classes, if the toggle were to be implemented for one it should happen aswell on the other o___O

 

You can't count as a party member unless you're in a party, so I doubt it applies the party bonus damage for yourself if you're not in one.

 

That being said, considering the fact that Assassins have 3 skills that, combined, can hit twice as hard as Death Grip, means there's no reason to reduce the time. However, most Assassins only max 1-2 of these skills, but I have met some with all 3. Assassin Final Skills all have instant cast time, regardless of the 20 second duration.

 

The fact that Death Grip has a 2 second cast time is risky and problematic enough.

 

Furthermore, Death Grip is our only ranged Non-DoT attack. Crucio makes ac decent hit, and has a decent DoT, but it's weak, has a 1 second cast time, and has a 5 second Cool-Down.. All Assassin skills basically out-DPS us, while we have to depend on Damage Over Time. In Colo, if it were a toggle, we'd be on-par with Assassins, because of the increased mobility. We'd also be able to dodge AoEs easier outside of Colo, because after applying DoTs without Awake: Darkness, we have to depend on our close-ranged attacks for the most part, until needing to re-apply DoTs.

Edited by SoraOfKHK, 08 October 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[raela]

Considering that SM gets a self heal and Cresc does not, it's quite a bit less OP on Cresc. The 10 second CD skill is dependant on being in a party, and doesn't pull as much damage as a Ranger or Assassin could solo, even if spammed. There's no balance issue that attack remaining as is in PvP, and in dungeons it would allow Cresc to be able to have a ranged damage skill every 10 sec, because it's pretty much needed. Assassin has a -constant- move speed bonus, so they can keep up with raid bosses and keep the damage up, while a Cresc is more squishy and slow most of the time. It's not at all fair to say "but they have some ranged attacks, so keep them underperforming." It's not an OP defensive spam like Immunity, it's simply a damaging attack with a 2 sec cast and range. The balance is there with SM and makes sense, does not on Cresc.

Then speaking just of Cres vs. Sin..

Sin can choose to mitigate damage with shadow armor, or use movespeed to get out. Other melee classes also lack the 30% move buff, but they make do (wind elixer or otherwise). However, if sins choose to run, their only chance at DPS is if they happened to have poison DoT up, or throw some weak daggers.

Cres needs to run out, but they have the option of stronger DoTs which keep the DPS going much much better. Given how cast times are, and boss AoEs, I doubt you'll have to stay away so long that you run out of things to do - apply DoTs, then run back to boss.

To me, it seems like Cres should have its niche in helping with add management - you have a bunch of strong AoE skills that way outshine what sin has to offer. Those have their uses in pvp, too. Why do they need to pull threat as high as the major single target DPS classes? Though, what really would help is when someone pairs up a Cres with other DPS classes with similar gear and looks for what the threat situation really looks like..

[KurashiDragon]

Considering that SM gets a self heal and Cresc does not, it's quite a bit less OP on Cresc. 

 

Both Priests and Sorcs have a way to increase their healing capabilities through a toggle/long buff. SMs have pathetically weak Healing and Toggling Soulmate would certainly make it's healing far more useful.

 

On-topic though, I agree that Darkness should be a toggle. I actually wonder why it's not a toggle considering how similar it is to the Sin's Shadow Form.

[RiketzKarlom]

Then speaking just of Cres vs. Sin..

Sin can choose to mitigate damage with shadow armor, or use movespeed to get out. Other melee classes also lack the 30% move buff, but they make do (wind elixer or otherwise). However, if sins choose to run, their only chance at DPS is if they happened to have poison DoT up, or throw some weak daggers.

Cres needs to run out, but they have the option of stronger DoTs which keep the DPS going much much better. Given how cast times are, and boss AoEs, I doubt you'll have to stay away so long that you run out of things to do - apply DoTs, then run back to boss.

To me, it seems like Cres should have its niche in helping with add management - you have a bunch of strong AoE skills that way outshine what sin has to offer. Those have their uses in pvp, too. Why do they need to pull threat as high as the major single target DPS classes? Though, what really would help is when someone pairs up a Cres with other DPS classes with similar gear and looks for what the threat situation really looks like..

I HAVE partied up with others as a Cresc, using a purely DoT/DPS oriented built. That's where the basis of this is coming from, on top of my own experiences playing as those other classes. Fighting a -boss- as most classes, especially re-applying the -2 ranged DoT skills- doesn't really take very long. Even in Wolf Cave, Alter and Cresc just stand away from the boss with nothing to do while waiting on the boss's AoE to time out. Take an actual look at the skill tree before you determine that Cresc has a "ton of AoE attacks" : http://www.ro2base.c...6.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

Keep in mind, the AoE skills that remain untouched are purely for generating status effects, and do not even deal damage.

 

However, all of the points you made can be refuted by my first post:

 

Damage Mitigation on a Cresc, with their Awake Darkness active -barely puts them on par with an unbuffed Ranger or Assassin's mitigation, as Cresc has pitiful defense-. Cresc is 100% built towards 1v1 killing, especially with the Stigma skills and the CD on even the single target DoT skills.

 

The best it can do in AoE is fluffing with DoT's, not doing anything close to a Sorc, Wizard, or Ranger's AoE DoTs. It really only outdoes Warrior or Knight in terms of its combined AoE damage (With Awake Darkness activated), and not by as much as you'd think.

 

Despite the power boosting passive skill from 1st job, the damage boost is necessary, and is once again just a factor in off-setting part of the class's gimpy damage output.

 

Death Grip is the only ranged direct damage skill a Cresc has, aside from the skill that hits for 0 freaking damage if enemy has no Stigmas (a debuff that stacks when using mail melee attacks) "Curse Burst", which you need to be in melee range and comboing to even apply. Increasing the CD to 20 to 30 seconds only seems fair at first glance, seeing as how the big damage portion only comes from being party and the fact it has a cast time and 10s CD essentially makes it into a Genesis Ray for a class that can't self heal HP or SP in any natural way when in combat. This coupled with DoT's is the only way a Cresc has a shot at landing any kills in Colloseum, and should be able to outdamage classes that have self heals - this is called "class balance". Of course, a Priest's gear would give them better damage output with a Crescentia skill tree than a Crescentia has with this attack, making this comparison even more valid. Except, a Crescentia can't Aspersio and make this skill instant cast.

 

Again, if this wasn't so very obviously something that is an integral part to actually playing this class usefully and doing something other than casting Blindness, I would not have made this topic.

 

P.S. : I love your DW Signature, Tennant is the man.

Edited by RiketzKarlom, 09 October 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[raela]

I HAVE partied up with others as a Cresc, using a purely DoT/DPS oriented built. That's where the basis of this is coming from, on top of my own experiences playing as those other classes. Fighting a -boss- as most classes, especially re-applying the -2 ranged DoT skills- doesn't really take very long. Even in Wolf Cave, Alter and Cresc just stand away from the boss with nothing to do while waiting on the boss's AoE to time out. Take an actual look at the skill tree before you determine that Cresc has a "ton of AoE attacks" : http://www.ro2base.c...6.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

Keep in mind, the AoE skills that remain untouched are purely for generating status effects, and do not even deal damage.

 

However, all of the points you made can be refuted by my first post:

 

Damage Mitigation on a Cresc, with their Awake Darkness active -barely puts them on par with an unbuffed Ranger or Assassin's mitigation, as Cresc has pitiful defense-. Cresc is 100% built towards 1v1 killing, especially with the Stigma skills and the CD on even the single target DoT skills.

 

The best it can do in AoE is fluffing with DoT's, not doing anything close to a Sorc, Wizard, or Ranger's AoE DoTs. It really only outdoes Warrior or Knight in terms of its combined AoE damage (With Awake Darkness activated), and not by as much as you'd think.

 

Despite the power boosting passive skill from 1st job, the damage boost is necessary, and is once again just a factor in off-setting part of the class's gimpy damage output.

 

Death Grip is the only ranged direct damage skill a Cresc has, aside from the skill that hits for 0 freaking damage if enemy has no Stigmas (a debuff that stacks when using mail melee attacks) "Curse Burst", which you need to be in melee range and comboing to even apply. Increasing the CD to 20 to 30 seconds only seems fair at first glance, seeing as how the big damage portion only comes from being party and the fact it has a cast time and 10s CD essentially makes it into a Genesis Ray for a class that can't self heal HP or SP in any natural way when in combat. This coupled with DoT's is the only way a Cresc has a shot at landing any kills in Colloseum, and should be able to outdamage classes that have self heals - this is called "class balance". Of course, a Priest's gear would give them better damage output with a Crescentia skill tree than a Crescentia has with this attack, making this comparison even more valid. Except, a Crescentia can't Aspersio and make this skill instant cast.

 

Again, if this wasn't so very obviously something that is an integral part to actually playing this class usefully and doing something other than casting Blindness, I would not have made this topic.

 

P.S. : I love your DW Signature, Tennant is the man.

 

My experience is from duoing my SM with a Cres, though I've not progressed to RHD or Raids. We have however taken down large mobs when fooling around, so that's where I'm drawing AoEs from.. perhaps I have the wrong idea? Mobs drop fast, plus earthworm has showed itself to be quite useful at times. I haven't gotten the chance to party with Cres's outside of that, either.

 

There are AoEs that need dodged in WC? The poison to begin with.. but really, the tank should be moving the boss out of that. When I mean dodging AoEs, I mean the large blue circles that some raids require you to run out of.. generally, the AoE goes off after a couple seconds. Anything else, I'm used to tanks moving the boss out of it. Coming from that mindset, ~5 seconds to reapply DoTs seems reasonable (then run back to smack boss some more).

 

I just checked into Cres's defense since I wasn't entirely sure on that.. since their armor is light, it's the same as Sin/Ranger.. I compared the individual pieces of the "Dark Einherjar" set. Sin has shadow armor, which is quite nice, but what does ranger have? I guess not being in melee range.. (but then again, that puts Rogue at a loss here, since they lack shadow armor and are stuck in melee).

 

Not having played Cres, hopefully my opinion doesn't count for much.. I just kind of like that added complexity of the transformation to the class. It adds more strategy to the class, instead of just "spam this one rotation forever and ever." I guess if anything, Sin is the weird one in this case.. the other classes with some sort of buff have a tradeoff for using it.. Sin is just sad without it. No downside. D:

[Leinzan]

@Riketz:

Relax, its a debate

 

If anything, I would also LOOOOOOOVE it as a toggle, still can't help but think it might be much more powerful than it needs.

Seting aside «Death Grip» (which I would love if it had no casting time), all skills benefit from the 30% ATK/MATK boost.

 

As for AoEs, Crescentia has a few more options than most melees, «Curse Burst» being the most powerful. Try bringing a Soulmaker companion to Payon Tomb, till you reach the room with a ton of Phantom Fires, and mob it all, its fun >=D.

 

Crescentias, as they are now, are slow starters, but they definitely should be able to compete in DPS with other classes, however, they will never have as much Crit rate as Assassins or Rogues, so you can't really hope to out-threat them if they don't leave the boss' side.

 

On a side note, what I like of the form being cast and buff of 3 minutes is that, unlike «Shadow Form», you can "Feel the Power Rush!!", like saying "Shiit just got Real!!", a toggle would make that boring :/ (personal thought)

 

 

@Sora:

Hmm, do you have nearly 20% vigor rate O___o? If so, maybe the cooldown is gimped and has 11 minutes instead of 10 >___> which wouldn't surprise me!

[RiketzKarlom]

My experience is from duoing my SM with a Cres, though I've not progressed to RHD or Raids. We have however taken down large mobs when fooling around, so that's where I'm drawing AoEs from.. perhaps I have the wrong idea? Mobs drop fast, plus earthworm has showed itself to be quite useful at times. I haven't gotten the chance to party with Cres's outside of that, either.

 

There are AoEs that need dodged in WC? The poison to begin with.. but really, the tank should be moving the boss out of that. When I mean dodging AoEs, I mean the large blue circles that some raids require you to run out of.. generally, the AoE goes off after a couple seconds. Anything else, I'm used to tanks moving the boss out of it. Coming from that mindset, ~5 seconds to reapply DoTs seems reasonable (then run back to smack boss some more).

 

I just checked into Cres's defense since I wasn't entirely sure on that.. since their armor is light, it's the same as Sin/Ranger.. I compared the individual pieces of the "Dark Einherjar" set. Sin has shadow armor, which is quite nice, but what does ranger have? I guess not being in melee range.. (but then again, that puts Rogue at a loss here, since they lack shadow armor and are stuck in melee).

 

Not having played Cres, hopefully my opinion doesn't count for much.. I just kind of like that added complexity of the transformation to the class. It adds more strategy to the class, instead of just "spam this one rotation forever and ever." I guess if anything, Sin is the weird one in this case.. the other classes with some sort of buff have a tradeoff for using it.. Sin is just sad without it. No downside. D:

Rogue isn't entirely at a loss, due to Gangster's Paradise fighting right back at the damage it's soaking up, though it is a bit more vulnerable to 1 shots (I personally love soloing a Rogue instead of Sin). It's also worth mentioning that a Crescentia's down 24 Vit, due to the 36/36/25 split being Str/Int/Agi, on top of a low base HP multiplier for the class. At any given level, other DPS classes will have more HP and heal more from pots, though it's obviously a small enough difference to not be much of a factor at endgame. The added power compensates for the low crit rating, and allows them to count for something. Saying it's "more fun to play and add strategy" isn't really fair once you go into the colliseum and die with it on, then have no ranged attacks other than an annoyance's worth of DoT's and no heals outside of pots. The whole point of a DPS class is being able to constantly roll either for procs or stacking up debuffs, such as Rogue or Ranger does. Something that is so easily cut off for 10 minutes at a time should not take 6 skill points to bring into fruition. For it being such a double edged sword, I'd argue that it isn't strong enough. This is why most folks who have played the class agree that changing the skill to a toggle is the most obvious and balanced solution. Also, your point about the AoE's dropping everything likely comes from the fact you are running as SM, and anyone using AoE's with your buffs would drop enemies like flies.

Edited by RiketzKarlom, 09 October 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[SoraOfKHK]

@Sora:

Hmm, do you have nearly 20% vigor rate O___o? If so, maybe the cooldown is gimped and has 11 minutes instead of 10 >___> which wouldn't surprise me!

 

9.84%. Never even looked until just now.

 

 

 

Pertaining to the argument, if the only solution to making Awake: Darkness a toggle is to extend the cool-down of Death Grip, and to nerf it, then there would have to be other things done, as well...

 

It has a 2 second cast time already due to the power and the cool-down it currently has.

 

If you give it a larger cool-down, say 20 seconds, then you'd have to give it a 1 second cast time.

 

If you give it a 30 second cool-down, the cast time should be instant.

 

This is factoring how Assassin skills work in their form, plus the power that Death Grip has. 2 seconds is long enough for anyone to realize we're casting it in a PVP environment, and attack us in the 2 seconds we're locked into place for a long period of time (and yes, 2 seconds standing still is a long time in Colo for the majority of classes). This goes for many of our skills that do just that.

[Leinzan]

Yea, she is running as a Soulmaker,

But the point of this matter is about the toggle of the form, which is the same case for both Crescentia and Soulmaker o__o

 

So, she can't exactly be considered out of topic.

 

Anyway, I see the point of this matter crudely well, because I, as a Crescentia, find it highly risky to use my form in Colosseum or any environment where my death is almost secure, in other words, PvP. For PvE however, it is fair and powerful enough.

 

Maybe this would be a ridiculous reason to refute the idea, but let's imagine it becomes a toggle, who would play a Crescentia or Soulmaker without the activated form? Who would risk to make a build in which they decide NOT to touch the form? (Which sounds weird, but it is highly possible).

 

Then araises the example of the Assassins and their former «Shadow Form», the unicorn-doggie, it used to take away any point to get costumes for the Assassin characters, since they were in «Shadow Form» a 99% of the time, and hid the costumes away.

 

In the Crescentia and Soulmaker case, they become a boy or a girl on their respective cases regardless of the gender you chose for your character, and also hides their costumes. Supposing they would be on the Form for also a 99% of the time, later on we will have a post requesting for the Awakening Forms to not hide the costumes for aesthetic reasons.

 

This trobule will lead to a loop, any suggestion in mind for the toggle that allows the form to exists and still not hide the costumes aside from turning them off outside of battle?

[SoraOfKHK]

In the Crescentia and Soulmaker case, they become a boy or a girl on their respective cases regardless of the gender you chose for your character, and also hides their costumes. Supposing they would be on the Form for also a 99% of the time, later on we will have a post requesting for the Awakening Forms to not hide the costumes for aesthetic reasons.

 

This trobule will lead to a loop, any suggestion in mind for the toggle that allows the form to exists and still not hide the costumes aside from turning them off outside of battle?

 

They're both physically male (the tail is a spiked arrow-head, which is male, whereas the female tail is a spade). The SM transformation just has female animations.

 

I don't see it becoming an issue, as the transformed state is rather awesome. However, it changes your horn style. I don't mind it changing the hair much, but changing the horn style is a bit bothersome.

 

That said, considering the awesomeness that is the form, it could easily be a transparent overlay on top of your costumes and such, so that they would still be partially viewable.

 

Anyone else wondered why SMs have red color, and Crecentias have blue? Shouldn't it be the other way around, since red and black are often associated with demons, evil, and darkness, whereas blue and white are associated with purity, grace, and light?

 

 

[RiketzKarlom]

Yea, she is running as a Soulmaker,

But the point of this matter is about the toggle of the form, which is the same case for both Crescentia and Soulmaker o__o

 

So, she can't exactly be considered out of topic.

 

Anyway, I see the point of this matter crudely well, because I, as a Crescentia, find it highly risky to use my form in Colosseum or any environment where my death is almost secure, in other words, PvP. For PvE however, it is fair and powerful enough.

 

Maybe this would be a ridiculous reason to refute the idea, but let's imagine it becomes a toggle, who would play a Crescentia or Soulmaker without the activated form? Who would risk to make a build in which they decide NOT to touch the form? (Which sounds weird, but it is highly possible).

 

Then araises the example of the Assassins and their former «Shadow Form», the unicorn-doggie, it used to take away any point to get costumes for the Assassin characters, since they were in «Shadow Form» a 99% of the time, and hid the costumes away.

 

In the Crescentia and Soulmaker case, they become a boy or a girl on their respective cases regardless of the gender you chose for your character, and also hides their costumes. Supposing they would be on the Form for also a 99% of the time, later on we will have a post requesting for the Awakening Forms to not hide the costumes for aesthetic reasons.

 

This trobule will lead to a loop, any suggestion in mind for the toggle that allows the form to exists and still not hide the costumes aside from turning them off outside of battle?

I was replying to the portion that says "everything drops like flies because of Cresc's AoE", when it would be much more accurate to say "everything drops like flies because of SM's buffs combined with any DPS class's AoE". It was being used as a counter-argument to a point I was making, so I was simply pointing out that looking at a class's damage while it is soul linked and very powered up and comparing it to something else's DPS in any other situation is very unfair.

 

To the point of Immunity being compared to Death Grip... well, that's slightly unfair, seeing as how Immunity heals the caster and their party when they cast it, probably why people think Death Grip is some super OP 1v1 killing skill in Colosseum, when it is actually weakest when solo. This is without even considering the crazy damage enhancing buffs SM walks around with. That basically is like a 2nd layer of their transformation, so it at least makes sense that the transformation is limited for them. If SM's Awake was made into a toggle, I'd argue that its effect would need to be more like Wind Walk and/or Water Seal, from Ranger/Mage, or even with a bit of Sacrament to up the power of its support skills. Basically, enhancing healing skills, max HP, damage mitigation slight, and that same move speed bonus. Would be a lot more fair and less 1-shotty, and fall more in line with their actual skillset and the theme of the 2 classes being opposites. That's why I'd consider this discussion about SM off-topic, because the classes are as different as Ranger and Beastmaster. I mean, they're quite literally like night and day, and have very different levels of benefit from each skill. Benefits that translate very very differently into both PvP and Dungeon gameplay, for very different levels of survivability and ranged damage.

 

Try playing as both classes, in either PvP or just questing, and the differences will be as plain as day. Crescentia basically needs this upgrade to be on par with other classes, whereas SM would need the toggle to be more mana regen/powered up restoration oriented, like a Sage or Priest. Honestly, I'm surprised there's no threads about SM's problems juggling mana costs and heals. The change would benefit them greatly, and yet they'd still be hard hitters from the sheer power of their skillset and gears. The little HP bump would also help Sacrifice out a bit, making it a 1-2 combo between it and Immunity. There's just a lot of ways the current Awake for SM becoming a toggle would break the class and make it unkillable. Again, very different classes and circumstance, this idea of advocating for a class that needs an improvement while not arguing for something blatantly OP as somehow being unfair doesn't add up when you actually break down the potential for both classes and look at what they can do and how well they can actually do it. This is why I was comparing Crescentia to other DPS classes initially, and left SM out of my opening post completely. They are not the same class.

 

To the point of the actual transformation, most people seem to really like it, the male/female animations and appearance are pretty non-issue when compared to the balance issue that lack of toggle brings up. Again, another valid discussion, but something that should probably be a poll on another topic.

 

I also just wanted to say, I really appreciate all of this feedback. It's allowed me to explain the need for this in much greater detail, and shed some light on issues that different classes face and some variations in different peoples' playstyles and perspectives. Always very interesting stuff, so thanks.

 

tl;dr : SM and Cresc are not the same class, at all. Giving SM's current Awake a toggle makes no sense, it would be game breaking due to Immunity healing them stacked with self heals. Comparing the two is hardly even valid.

Edited by RiketzKarlom, 10 October 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[raela]

I was replying to the portion that says "everything drops like flies because of Cresc's AoE", when it would be much more accurate to say "everything drops like flies because of SM's buffs combined with any DPS class's AoE". It was being used as a counter-argument to a point I was making, so I was simply pointing out that looking at a class's damage while it is soul linked and very powered up and comparing it to something else's DPS in any other situation is very unfair.

 

To the point of Immunity being compared to Death Grip... well, that's slightly unfair, seeing as how Immunity heals the caster and their party when they cast it, probably why people think Death Grip is some super OP 1v1 killing skill in Colosseum, when it is actually weakest when solo. This is without even considering the crazy damage enhancing buffs SM walks around with. That basically is like a 2nd layer of their transformation, so it at least makes sense that the transformation is limited for them. If SM's Awake was made into a toggle, I'd argue that its effect would need to be more like Wind Walk and/or Water Seal, from Ranger/Mage, or even with a bit of Sacrament to up the power of its support skills. Basically, enhancing healing skills, max HP, damage mitigation slight, and that same move speed bonus. Would be a lot more fair and less 1-shotty, and fall more in line with their actual skillset and the theme of the 2 classes being opposites. That's why I'd consider this discussion about SM off-topic, because the classes are as different as Ranger and Beastmaster. I mean, they're quite literally like night and day, and have very different levels of benefit from each skill. Benefits that translate very very differently into both PvP and Dungeon gameplay, for very different levels of survivability and ranged damage.

 

Try playing as both classes, in either PvP or just questing, and the differences will be as plain as day. Crescentia basically needs this upgrade to be on par with other classes, whereas SM would need the toggle to be more mana regen/powered up restoration oriented, like a Sage or Priest. Honestly, I'm surprised there's no threads about SM's problems juggling mana costs and heals. The change would benefit them greatly, and yet they'd still be hard hitters from the sheer power of their skillset and gears. The little HP bump would also help Sacrifice out a bit, making it a 1-2 combo between it and Immunity. There's just a lot of ways the current Awake for SM becoming a toggle would break the class and make it unkillable. Again, very different classes and circumstance, this idea of advocating for a class that needs an improvement while not arguing for something blatantly OP as somehow being unfair doesn't add up when you actually break down the potential for both classes and look at what they can do and how well they can actually do it. This is why I was comparing Crescentia to other DPS classes initially, and left SM out of my opening post completely. They are not the same class.

 

To the point of the actual transformation, most people seem to really like it, the male/female animations and appearance are pretty non-issue when compared to the balance issue that lack of toggle brings up. Again, another valid discussion, but something that should probably be a poll on another topic.

 

I also just wanted to say, I really appreciate all of this feedback. It's allowed me to explain the need for this in much greater detail, and shed some light on issues that different classes face and some variations in different peoples' playstyles and perspectives. Always very interesting stuff, so thanks.

 

tl;dr : SM and Cresc are not the same class, at all. Giving SM's current Awake a toggle makes no sense, it would be game breaking due to Immunity healing them stacked with self heals. Comparing the two is hardly even valid.

 

Fair enough. I'd be interested to see how mobbing goes with another class then - avoid using the DPS link on either. Empirical data is always nice, though too bad it'd have to involve taking up someone else's time as well. D: Maybe some day.

 

SM can't use links without someone to use them on, so at most solo they get the matk buff and crit damage buff. Duoed with a Cres, I'm able to grab 5-10 things in a mob.. but without that Cres, I stick to 1-3 (and 3 seems pretty rare with my current gear). Heal link OP.. without it, I actually rely on HoT + red pots, because my heals aren't actually powerful enough to keep myself up while soloing. Perma-form would at least keep heal/DPS going solo.. but, it is probably overkill. Doesn't help that currently I just have support tree filled up, but my DPS tree and heal tree are mostly level 1. Still haven't decided how I want to hybridize my SM.

 

My problem with my heals are more cast time/cool down/amount healed, not SP costs. My sorc was constantly low on SP when leveling, so drinking blues like water doesn't bother me.

 

As for going through questline.. well, I do plan on leveling a Cres sometime. Alter was pretty fun to do, but it's not like first class counts for too much. Having good DoTs + melee hits was fun, to the point of doing small mobs when leveling.. I feel it was quicker than the other melees I did. However yeah, I'd have to hit second class to see where it really falls. D: I don't really do PvP.

 

Had Assassin form been similar to Alter forms, I feel like people maybe would've been okay with keeping the spider-wolficorn. It really does get to be a bit tiresome when you lose the ability to customize your character.. seeing gear changes is quite fun (although sometimes you immediately rush to cover with a costume). No doubt it would come up.. but, yeah, not as relevant in a discussion of balance.

 

Glad to hear my SM perspective isn't too irritating then. I guess I'm just really concerned about having a transform with no downsides.. maybe balance in terms of tweaking the other skills would be something good, so that they are more on par with other DPS, but have some added boost available for only part of the time, even if the form buff is somehow changed. Lower cool down and weaken effect, maybe.

[Leinzan]

@Riketz:

Yup, it was long, but I read it anyway... glad to know you consider our feedbacks!

 

Hum, true, I lack experience playing Soulmaker, and solo mobbing as Crescentia is not the best of the ideas, personally handling 2 at the same time makes me get into critical conditions. Altho, it doesn't have to be with a Soulmaker, any support class should be able to back up the Crescentia or any other DPS class for monster killing, whereas Crescentia excels at simultaneous target striking, I say this because I've been able to handle up to 10, if not more, targets... however this is moving off-topic.

 

Soulmakers and their buffs, most of them are links, and they can't link themselves, so, all the points you put into those skills are rendered null if you play solo. Funny enough, I've seen Soulmakers linked to people in Colosseum. Again, this was off-topic.

 

If we look solely at the Awakening skills, they aren't as imbalanced, one simply strives for power and another goes for the support, now if we jump into the final result, the support one will always stand for longer, whereas the power thirsty one will always kill faster... as I said before, I lack experience as a Soulmaker, or rather as a supporter in general, so I can't tell much on this. Anyhow, I'll take the chance to say that the side effect of the «Awakening: Darkness», the % Defense increase, is lame... it's not flat.

 

About the aesthetic point, I have to agree that that is rather a topic for another post, however is a topic we will definetely see with a toggled form, as Sora said, he is personally not bothered by them because they look cool (which I agree), but the horns change. As well as others will be bothered by the fact of the change of animations, did you know that if you start dancing as male Soulmaker when on «Awakening: Soulmate», you'll dance with the girl animation? Sure enough, same goes if you are a female Crescentia. Well, there is no way in hell to have EVERYONE happy... again, the case of the Spider-Wolfycorn and the new «Shadow Form».

 

And one last point, until now Crescentia has got a gimped MATK in Colosseum, their «Death Grip» should be doing 1.8~2.2k damange due to that, if it were to be fixed at the 2.5k MATK just like their ATK, «Death Grip» will also be fixed to 2.6~3k without having to crit. That is an issue that will no wonder be pointed out with the toggled form. Also, don't you feel «Tempest» would be overshadowed by «Death Grip» due to their respective cooldowns and conditions?

[Vanillarox]

I don't agree with this suggestion.

 

Crescentias ATK/MATK modifier is already high. If they have +35% on at all times as well as +35% movement speed and finally 15% damage reduction, they would be broken. Furthermore, access to a 105% MATK every 10 seconds without vigor? That is far too high. This would also be broken on a Soul Maker. Laying on DoTs while in that form, as well as Death Grip is too much.

 

I can't agree. That's far too much power without any cost. Sins get away with it because their gear is not the best thing around. Their class is designed to be fast and do burst damage. Crescentia's DoTs all target the long term.

 

Sorry but if Crescentia's could keep their form, then I ask that Monk's Fury Explosion be changed to Awaken Fury, giving us 35% ATK power, 35% Movement Speed and 15% Damage Reduction.

[Ayakaya]

I'm using a Stigma-focused build, so I spend a bit more time as melee DPS with my Crecentia.  Although I would love the toggle'd Awake Form, I feel it'd be more OP than what we necessarily need.  Comparing it to just Shadow Form didn't really fit in my opinion.  Closer comparisons in relative value might be a combination of Shadow Form + Aura Blade + Aura Armor, or a Wiz having Water/Fire Emblem and permanent Levitation, or even all three BM forms on at once.  All of those except in one skill, and a 3-pt maxed skill at that.  Rather than a pure DPS, I've been treating my Crecentia as a DPS/unique Support (support through debuffs), so I can't see accurate comparisons between this class directly to any other single class/role.

 

I feel one option I'd be happy with is a simple large reduction in both duration+CD.  If it was as low as between 40-60s duration and 120-180s CD, it would be accessible at least once per colo round, or strategically saved to be used twice in one colo round at beginning/end.

 

An alternate suggestion is for Death Grip to always be usable, but nerfed when used outside of Awake:Darkness.  I was thinking something like a 30s CD and omitting the effect from party bonus dmg.  It would be comparative as a low-tier high-dmg ranged nuke, nothing above what other pure ranged classes have in terms of their longest CD high-dmg nukes.  Melee classes would be envious, but in terms of solid finishing skills and combined with Tempest, we'd still only have 3 high dmg nukes per minute.  That's mostly in line with what other classes have for high-dmg nukes (e.g. RoG, MD, Ragestrike).  With Death Grip always usable, I'd then rather have the Awake:Darkness duration+CD reduced to 120s duration and 360s CD, making it the 2nd highest non-Res CD (Ice Wall base 380s), but still would last for most average boss fights.

[KurashiDragon]

I don't agree with this suggestion.

 

Crescentias ATK/MATK modifier is already high. If they have +35% on at all times as well as +35% movement speed and finally 15% damage reduction, they would be broken. Furthermore, access to a 105% MATK every 10 seconds without vigor? That is far too high. This would also be broken on a Soul Maker. Laying on DoTs while in that form, as well as Death Grip is too much.

 

I can't agree. That's far too much power without any cost. Sins get away with it because their gear is not the best thing around. Their class is designed to be fast and do burst damage. Crescentia's DoTs all target the long term.

 

Sorry but if Crescentia's could keep their form, then I ask that Monk's Fury Explosion be changed to Awaken Fury, giving us 35% ATK power, 35% Movement Speed and 15% Damage Reduction.

 

..... believe it or not, I'd kinda agree with the monk thing. Monks need more dps, though it probably shouldn't be as op as that. 20% Atk increase 30% movement speed and 10% agility and Make it so that Giullotine Fist is usable in any case but give it a Special Effect for using it with Steel Body or Awaken Fury depending on which one your currently using. This isn't a monk thread though. so w/e.

 

On-topic: Sins have their Shadow form which is pretty much the same as Awake: Darkness anyway and there's currently a discussion going on about Death Grip anyway. I could see Death Grip's Cooldown time being extended and it's secondary effect having a nerf.

[Vanillarox]

..... believe it or not, I'd kinda agree with the monk thing. Monks need more dps, though it probably shouldn't be as op as that. 20% Atk increase 30% movement speed and 10% agility and Make it so that Giullotine Fist is usable in any case but give it a Special Effect for using it with Steel Body or Awaken Fury depending on which one your currently using. This isn't a monk thread though. so w/e.

 

On-topic: Sins have their Shadow form which is pretty much the same as Awake: Darkness anyway and there's currently a discussion going on about Death Grip anyway. I could see Death Grip's Cooldown time being extended and it's secondary effect having a nerf.

 

Difference is, Sins don't have as many DoTs. Why should Crescentias get all the advantages of a permanent form AND some ranged damage? Seems rather OP.

 

With this logic, why not give every class a Shadow Form equivalent? Can Rogues get it too? Monks? Priests? Rangers?

[Leinzan]

@Vanil:

Just for the note, at the skill simulator it says +35% move speed & attack power, but its 30%

[KurashiDragon]

Difference is, Sins don't have as many DoTs. Why should Crescentias get all the advantages of a permanent form AND some ranged damage? Seems rather OP.

 

With this logic, why not give every class a Shadow Form equivalent? Can Rogues get it too? Monks? Priests? Rangers?

 

What? The two classes have different playstyles. Using the sin as proof to say the crecentia would be OP just seems silly.

 

The second part doesn't make sense either. What logic are you talking about? I said that Awake: Darkness is pretty much the same as Shadow Form anyway. What part of that makes you think that other classes should get a toggle form too? Also Monks already have a toggle in steel body.