126 replies to this topic

[Vanillarox]

I made a Monk as my 6th character after already having a Knight, and my impression from playing Monk is that despite having two stats boost their attack power, their low weapon attack and mediocre stats result in one of the lowest damage outputs in the game. This is most apparent in Colosseum where my Monk does about half the damage of my Knight despite having similar skill damage modifiers. (Before taking into account Concentration, Battle Tactics, and Fury.) Now if it was something like 80% of my Knight's damage I could understand, but 50% is pathetic. And then you take into account the complete lack of Agi to help with Crit, and it's even worse. It's bad for threat generation in parties too, as when raiding with a guildie Monk I always had to stop fighting with my Wizard because I was going to out-threat the Monk, while a swordie tank with similar gears to the Monk had no issues keeping clear of my threat.

 

Surely Monk should have a bit more attack then they have now, to help with the general purpose things and with threat generation. I don't think anyone is asking to out-DPS the swordies and their Battle Tactics, nor to 100% match their damage, but just for a boost to give Monks some help in a major shortcoming.

 

 

Wizard shouldn't have any trouble out-damaging a Sorcerer on a boss unless either the Sorcerer is better geared/buffed, or Embus is being used. Embus is a whole different issue.

 

That is the biggest issue with players who don't play Monks. They seem to think that Monks aren't that weak. Once they actually play the class, they are blown away. I remember when I first made my Rogue (I had just a Monk before that) I was simply astonished at the difference in damage. My Monk was DPS built (Whatever the hell that is) and I was just.. I couldn't believe how much better the damage on a Rogue was. I was out damaging my Monk at like.. level 30.

[ShokuHUN]

In Original Pre-Renewal Ragnarok Online Monk/Champion wasn't good DPS also and don't has Multiple Target Attack. Monk was strong in 1v1!
Thats why RO2 Monk don't have strong Multiple Target Skills and isn't good DPS. I think that was difficult for developers to integrate RO1 Monk to the new system. The RO2 Monk isn't bad but I agreed to need some fix.

Monk have 3 main problem:
1. Aggro keeping
2. Weak in Colo and versus Ranged Classes
3. Don't have Party Buff.

This is my suggestions:
Iron Skin: Must be replaced by Party Buff like increase incoming healing for all party members
Fury Explosion: Add Critical Chance
Steel Body: Remove attack penalty and increase Defense bonus to 250%
Throw Spirit Sphere: Increase Occult Implaction status bonus damage
Guillotine Fist: Make it no miss
Lightning Walk: Add slowing status effect

Don't need AGI from gears and Lighting Crush boost just these skill modifications to RO2 Monks feel strong and usefull they own character.

Sorry my bad english.

Edited by ShokuHUN, 11 October 2013 - 11:35 PM.

[Vanillarox]

In Original Pre-Renewal Ragnarok Online Monk/Champion wasn't good DPS also and don't has Multiple Target Attack. Monk was strong in 1v1!
Thats why RO2 Monk don't have strong Multiple Target Skills and isn't good DPS. I think that was difficult for developers to integrate RO1 Monk to the new system. The RO2 Monk isn't bad but I agreed to need some fix.

Monk have 3 main problem:
1. Aggro keeping
2. Weak in Colo and versus Ranged Classes
3. Don't have Party Buff.

This is my suggestions:
Iron Skin: Must be replaced by Party Buff like increase incoming healing for all party members
Fury Explosion: Add Critical Chance
Steel Body: Remove attack penalty and increase Defense bonus to 250%
Throw Spirit Sphere: Increase Occult Implaction status bonus damage
Guillotine Fist: Make it no miss
Lightning Walk: Add slowing status effect

Don't need AGI from gears and Lighting Crush boost just these skill modifications to RO2 Monks feel strong and usefull they own character.

Sorry my bad english.

 

I do like your ideas, however I would still like Fury Explosion to add ATK power as well. As for not giving us AGI, I just have to ask. Why is it that a class that uses Cloth Armor, the lightest armor in the game, getting the least amount of AGI? Why does a Knight, who wears Heavy Armor, getting AGI? Logically speaking, Monks should get AGI. We're not exactly wearing anything heavy. We get next to no Crit and Dodge. It is not like we're 10% below the other tanks. We are literally 20% below them, assuming we do NOT stack AGI runes and bump AGI in our stat build (assuming the tank in question isn't doing the same thing).

 

I just don't understand why this issue hasn't been resolved by now.  Did Rogues really need a buff on Mark of Death and +40% ATK power on Moonlight Dance? More than Monks needed a buff? Are Assassin's appearance such a priority that it is placed higher than balancing a class? Don't even tell me it takes more work to balance a class than it does to completely redesign and animate a class' appearance. This forum is full of universally accepted balancing ideas for Monk and none of it has even put a dent into the developer's time.

 

I would like an actual answer to this. Why did Rogues and Assassins (and to a lesser extent Noels (yes I do count the Soul Maker nerf as time that could have been allocated to Monks)) get a change so quickly? At this rate there won't be any more Monks left to appreciate the buff.

[Lukiner]

This is my suggestions:
Iron Skin: Must be replaced by Party Buff like increase incoming healing for all party members

 

how this suppose to help monk in solo play compared to other classes buffs? he don't have self heal after all >.> and buff that require monk to use pots / be alchemist to make self best pots is verrrrrrry stupid

[ShokuHUN]

 

I do like your ideas, however I would still like Fury Explosion to add ATK power as well. As for not giving us AGI, I just have to ask. Why is it that a class that uses Cloth Armor, the lightest armor in the game, getting the least amount of AGI? Why does a Knight, who wears Heavy Armor, getting AGI? Logically speaking, Monks should get AGI. We're not exactly wearing anything heavy. We get next to no Crit and Dodge. It is not like we're 10% below the other tanks. We are literally 20% below them, assuming we do NOT stack AGI runes and bump AGI in our stat build (assuming the tank in question isn't doing the same thing).

We have dodge with Flee skill +20% raw dodge is nice. 1 Min cooldown and able to refresh with Summon Spirit Sphere. I use always when I tanking and it is really usefull. I have ~14% base dodge now and + 20% for skill so 1/3 dodge rate isn't bad. Yes I agreed we need crit, but I think don't need complete gear rework if Fury give us some crit like in RO1. Roleplay an another question to Monk light armors why not give AGI. All I said: Monk can be works without AGI from gears. Easier way to add some crit to Fury than rework all gear. Monks are great Main Tank without high base dodge.

 

 

how this suppose to help monk in solo play compared to other classes buffs? he don't have self heal after all >.> and buff that require monk to use pots / be alchemist to make self best pots is verrrrrrry stupid

That just was a quick example. Any buff can be usefull but I modify my suggetion: Increase incoming healing and potion effective for all party members.

 

Edited by ShokuHUN, 12 October 2013 - 01:22 AM.

[Lukiner]

We have dodge with Flee skill +20% raw dodge is nice. 1 Min cooldown and able to refresh with Summon Spirit Sphere. I use always when I tanking and it is really usefull. I have ~14% base dodge now and + 20% for skill so 1/3 dodge rate isn't bad. Yes I agreed we need crit, but I think don't need complete gear rework if Fury give us some crit like in RO1. Roleplay an another question to Monk light armors why not give AGI. All I said: Monk can be works without AGI from gears. Easier way to add some crit to Fury than rework all gear. Monks are great Main Tank without high base dodge.

 

why Monk is suppose to have "good" (cough cough) dodge&crit every 1 minute while other class can have it whole time? ... also you have 14% dodge base value... but what if someone use more dps oriented gear that don't give dodge but hit/vigor/haste instead (you know I prefer to hit monsters/players with my skills and specially with Asura >.>) or mix of both types of gear?

 

rework the cloth (aka thin air crap) monk armors so they give AGI instead of WIT but lower the values of dodge received from "Flee" and give smaller bonus values to "Fury 2.0" so it would be balanced...

 

That just was a quick example. Any buff can be usefull but I modify my suggetion: Increase incoming healing and potion effective for all party members.

 

it's still bad/stupid idea for buff.... healing buff for character that even don't have heal? lol... and the potion part would have sense if we have Alchemist character in this game not a job class.... don't focus buffs on usable items (aka potions or even food) but more on the class. If Gravity give Monk good self heal then the increased healing received buff would work since it would synchronize with his self heal.

 

tbh it would have more sense if

Priests have increased healing received buff (since they heal and stuff ;p) and Monk the % VIT buff (the acolyte one or even improved version that give more HP)

 

or SMs have increased healing received buff and Monk the AP/magic dmg buff ... SM got 2 buffs that are so amazing in SOLO play and in PARTY while monk have NOTHING....

[ShokuHUN]

Seriously, you guys you want the Monk to be the strongest DPS and also Tank. I want a little fix for balance. I just wrote my suggestion which I think would be the easiest and quickest way.

The developers have several option to fix these 3 problem with Monk. If they want to replace Monk gears not enough to replace Wis. They need to calculate the balance. That's why I not wrote values. And I also use DPS/Tanking hybrid gears. I don't think my party buff idea was stupid 'cuz I think many monk and party members be happy of more incoming heal and potion effective, but as I said this is only a quick example. The impotant from that suggestion is: need party buff and Iron Skin is can be replaced .

 

I trust that the developers really work on the Monk fix and we'll be satisfied.

[Meconopsis]

Looooool at this rate might as well make monk have best DPS for a tank because they can only MT right?

Nah, none of us been saying for monk to be best DPS...

We just want to be a little below warriors but around knight's level...
Plus we have a right to make opinions to suggestions. I will say your party buff proposal is pretty useless for monk. Party buffs should help the individual character first before the party. A non-healing class able to amplify healing as a buff is logically a waste of many other better party buff ideas.

Like a vigor party buff or having no party buff for the sake of an overall stronger skill kit to compensate.

[ShokuHUN]

Many proposals were other topics to Monks want DPS build too. The Knights and Warriors don't have good DPS build also cuz they are Tanks as we and this is so well.

 

So again:

RO1 Monks was always good vs single target, but weak vs. multiple targets (I don't talk about Sura).

RO2 Monks also good vs single target in duels (except ranged classes) and good main tank.

 

So developers keep this way for Monks, but this is a new system that's why little different.

 

All Monk agree that need a (little) fix. But not just for our class. What about BMs? They're really weak. I don't understand why become bard/dancer replaced by BM. Warrior OT, Monk MT, Knight both. There is no space for BMs. Need more support class not an another tank. I think it was a mistake from developers.

 

[ChopChopz]

We just want to be a little below warriors but around knight's level...

 

This is too much, way too much.

Monk is much tankier than a knight.

 

I find you guys really fail to realize how good does monk/BM capacble to achieve as a tank.

Edited by ChopChopz, 12 October 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[SoraOfKHK]

In RO1 (speaking in first class level, since it's relevant to RO2, since RO2 only has first class at the moment technically), Monks had the option to Combo, to Support, to deal massive Single-Target damage, and to nullify 90% of incoming damage as (arguably) one of the best tanks in the game... They could do this all within one single build, and be skilled in PVP, PVM, and MVP.

 

In RO2, they tried to emulate every class, keeping them as close as possible to the original, but they dropped a lot of skills and abilities along the way. Monks, in my opinion, are the least like their original.

 

I didn't expect Asura to hit for 100,000 a hit, but I'd at least prefer it to pierce defense (like in RO1), or hit a minimum of 5,000 damage (without a critical hit).

 

We used to have Fists/Gauntlets (and we could wear 2) in RO2 as weapons, but they changed that. I also believe at some point, we did have Agi on our gear. From what I can tell, all classes (except Rangers) could wear 2 of their weapons (excluding Priests, Sorcerer, and Wizard) , or a shield. I've seen screen-shots (and a video) of a Monk with 2 Gauntlet/Fist weapons, and I've seen some with them wearing a shield. I've also seen screen-shots of an Assassin having an overly large weapon (for some reason), but only having one.

 

If they'd have left those options in, many classes would have more viability, and be a bit more tanky, or have more DPS.

 

I didn't expect the class to outright lack buff/healing skills, either, nor did I expect them to suck in DPS.

 

What the hell happened to the COMBO tree?

 

Monks need to be set up to be an expanded class like SMs, to be honest (as in taking up 2 pages worth of a skill tree). That's the only real way they're going to get fixed. The same can be said for BMs. Neither class seems to have enough options. It's doable, too. They would just have to change a lot of level 5 skills to level 3 skills to compensate (except the power skills, like Guillotine Fist).

Edited by SoraOfKHK, 12 October 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[5344130512045108620]

This is too much, way too much.

Monk is much tankier than a knight.

 

I find you guys really fail to realize how good does monk/BM capacble to achieve as a tank.

 

It doesnt matter if monks are much tankier than knights or not. When they finally fix pet freeze/stun on bosses, knights will be wanted in end game raids for Shield Fortress, to stop the rest of the team dying. If you take a Monk instead, sure the Monk might survive but what's the point if the rest of the raid dies? Likewise, the OT will be Warrior, because they are able to deal with mobs a lot more efficiently. So the 2 tank spots are filled: 1 knight/ 1 warrior. There is no place for monk/bm. Monk/bm will only be decent enough tanks for easier raids, or for raids that everyone else is overgeared for.

[ChopChopz]

It doesnt matter if monks are much tankier than knights or not. When they finally fix pet freeze/stun on bosses, knights will be wanted in end game raids for Shield Fortress, to stop the rest of the team dying. If you take a Monk instead, sure the Monk might survive but what's the point if the rest of the raid dies? Likewise, the OT will be Warrior, because they are able to deal with mobs a lot more efficiently. So the 2 tank spots are filled: 1 knight/ 1 warrior. There is no place for monk/bm. Monk/bm will only be decent enough tanks for easier raids, or for raids that everyone else is overgeared for.

 

Then how does giving monk swordman level DPS help this situation? It is simply making monk OP and not helping party member at all.

Monk lack utilities and they need one, I agree on that. But making monk OP is not a solution, you are arguing the wrong point.

 

 

Shield fortress is a great skill but never necessary, you can sanc, deluge or simply run away from the AoE.

OT also does not necessarily to be Warrior, Knight OT pretty well too.

Knight + warrior = best combo is just a wrong concept, unless the knight/warrior are very well geared, otherwise they are very likely to be both dead against AoD bosses and wipe the party.

Edited by ChopChopz, 12 October 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[ItsFierce]

That is the problem with the Monk class. We can only be a main tank due to poor design choices. Why is it that a Warrior and Knight have the flexibility to be either an off tank or a main tank, offer party buffs and build flexibility, while a Monk does not? Did you know that a Monk is perfectly able to get a point in every skill (without it being a waste) and that they are only seventeen skill points away from maxing every single skill in their class? There is little variety in how Monks play. We are forced to be a main tank because we have no crowd control. We are forced to be a main tank because our DPS is far too low to even consider building to be DPS spec.

 

Knights and Warriors can successfully spec for DPS and excel in both PvP and PvM. I don't think you fully understand the Monk class, nor how it truly plays. You may have partied with one a few dozen times, but that doesn't mean anything. Compared to the other tanking classes, we have limited variety and are severely underpowered. Our weapon has the lowest ATK modifier in the game, save for Soul Maker, our Burst skill has a precondition with a ridiculous cooldown (which is outclassed in every single way by Moonlight Dance) and we lack any kind of self.

 

Monks aren't asking to do everything. But really? We can't do much aside from main tank. Even our ability to main tank can be debated when compared to a Knight who gets far more utility. Sorcs do not have to worry about out healing a Priest because they get a lot more damage based skills in their tree. They are clearly designed as an offensive healer class. What are Monks? Main tanks only? One build? The only difference between Monk builds (realistically) is what level of Lightning Walk do we get (PvP), what level of Summon Spirit Sphere do we get (PvP/PvM) and do we choose to get Flee?

 

I've partied with Monks more than "a few dozen times", because I know a good number of people that main the Monk class...and from what I've seen, they can hold threat better than most other tanks, and can take hits better as well. Maybe they're just better players though, anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

 

I like how you just flat out ignore Beastmasters in every comment you make. You complain about how underpowered you believe Monks are, and constantly ask for attention about it, but you fail to mention the class that ACTUALLY needs it quite a bit more. And while I'm complaining about what you always talk about...why do you assume that everyone is either falling under the category of believing that monks are underpowered and need buffs, or has no idea what they're talking about?

 

You really shouldn't compare Monks to other classes so much. All the classes are already way too similar by the fact that practically all of them are based around some form of combo system. If you keep comparing them and asking for relevant changes, you're really just asking for every class to be identical for the sake of balance...which destroys the point of having unique classes in the first place. Like I said, every class has/should have their distinctive role in a raid, and monks have that. Just because you can't do anything other than play main tank doesn't mean the class is useless; that's like saying just because a priest can do nothing but heal = they need more variety in their skill tree and severely need buffs because their DPS is garbage (which is true, by the way...I've yet to see a priest complaining about how they get outshined by literally every single other dps class in the game. Monks, on the other hand...).  Comparing Asura Strike to Moonlight Dance? Really? Why shouldn't a dedicated DPS class's burst skill be significantly better than that of a tank? I guess monks should just be better than every class. In regards to self-heal and attack modifier for the weapon: monks don't need a self heal, they have other ways to deal with that (it's like saying a sin needs a self-heal compared to a rogue; sins have other ways of dealing with that). The crappy attack modifier for the weapon I agree with, monks have horrendous scaling which will only get worse as high tiers of gear come out, and this should be addressed at some point.

 

If you're going to talk about builds...for the most part, all classes have a cookie-cutter build, and you're allowed to switch around 5-15 points or so (unless you do something drastically different, which generally is inefficient due to game mechanics). If you want the monk skill tree redesigned or something, you might as well ask for ALL the skill trees to be redesigned, because almost all classes are plagued by that same problem.

 

And yes, most monks are asking to be able to do everything. Just from your post...you want a self-heal, more crowd control, party buff(s), and a buff to an already strong burst skill. Basically, what a lot of monks want is to do everything that a warrior/knight can do, but retain what makes them a monk, i.e. just give monks Tension Relax, Defender, Grand Cross/Brandish Storm, Shield Fortress, Battle Order, and Moonlight Dance. THEN the monk class will be balanced and won't be a garbage class.

 

[Sigh...long post is long. Why am I still awake at this hour? I get interested in stuff like this that normally I could care less about...no more posts from me here. Time to continue to ignore all the complaining monks because lol]

[5344130512045108620]

Then how does giving monk swordman level DPS help this situation? It is simply making monk OP and not helping party member at all.

Monk lack utilities and they need one, I agree on that. But making monk OP is not a solution, you are arguing the wrong point.

 

 

Shield fortress is a great skill but never necessary, you can sanc, deluge or simply run away from the AoE.

OT also does not necessarily to be Warrior, Knight OT pretty well too.

Knight + warrior = best combo is just a wrong concept, unless the knight/warrior are very well geared, otherwise they are very likely to be both dead against AoD bosses and wipe the party.

 

HyVent completed AoD H legit using knight/warrior and only colo gear. You say that shield fortress is never necessary, that knight/warrior will get the party wiped unless they are well geared? If you think monks are better tanks, then show us an AoD H legit run with a monk where everyone is just a bit less geared than HyVent was when they first ran AoD H (a bit less than full colo), without having a knight (or if you have a knight, ban him from using shield fortress). If you think they are equally good tanks, show us an AoD H legit run with a monk where everyone is using full colo (just like HyVent did for their first run through AoD H), still without shield fortress. I seriously doubt you can back up your statements with proof, but feel free to show a video with the content I described and prove me wrong (bet you can't ).

Edited by 5344130512045108620, 13 October 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[ChopChopz]

HyVent completed AoD H legit using knight/warrior and only colo gear. You say that shield fortress is never necessary, that knight/warrior will get the party wiped unless they are well geared? If you think monks are better tanks, then show us an AoD H legit run with a monk where everyone is just a bit less geared than HyVent was when they first ran AoD H (a bit less than full colo), without having a knight (or if you have a knight, ban him from using shield fortress). If you think they are equally good tanks, show us an AoD H legit run with a monk where everyone is using full colo (just like HyVent did for their first run through AoD H), still without shield fortress. I seriously doubt you can back up your statements with proof, but feel free to show a video with the content I described and prove me wrong (bet you can't ).

 

First, hyvent tanks are not average tanks.

Secondluy, in hyvent 1st run with colo gear, all or near most the members are with explorer buffs and graham and mayor title with double stat.

Did you even ever experienced AoD/RM legit yourself to back up your statement? If you think vids to support is necessary why don't you post your own first? Why do I need a vid to prove you wrong, and not you have a vid to prove me wrong or prove yourself right?

If you use hyvent's video to support yourself, then do you even know Hyvent's tank was in this thread?

His point does not appear to agree with yours.

 

no, fixing bosses from CC will want monks in their party.  I doubt random knights are able to tank as well as random monks, and being able to generate more threat. 

 

Edited by ChopChopz, 13 October 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Melisax3]

Not sure if a crescentia or monk thread ._.

[NuwaChan]

Monks have a small advantage with hp and def, but a good BT Knight spamming provoke will out threat a

Monk or BM by at least 10k. Monks need more dps, and they need Intimidation boosted a bit.

[5344130512045108620]

First, hyvent tanks are not average tanks.

Secondluy, in hyvent 1st run with colo gear, all or near most the members are with explorer buffs and graham and mayor title with double stat.

Did you even ever experienced AoD/RM legit yourself to back up your statement? If you think vids to support is necessary why don't you post your own first? Why do I need a vid to prove you wrong, and not you have a vid to prove me wrong or prove yourself right?

If you use hyvent's video to support yourself, then do you even know Hyvent's tank was in this thread?

His point does not appear to agree with yours.

 

Well, I could do a random AoD H run, take along a monk, record it and fail horribly compared to HyVent: but would you accept that as proof that knights are better than monks? I think not. On the other hand, if you manage to show me a video of a team with a monk and no knight (so no shield fortress) doing just as good as HyVent if not better with similar gears (yes, explorer buffs/mayor title can be used since HyVent used them but no gears better than colo) - I would accept that as proof that monks are as good as/better than knights. Therefore, it is more appropriate for you to show a video as proof. Doesn't even have to be you in it. HyVent's point has nothing to do with mine. Like I said, monks may be able to survive better than knights, but what's the point if all the dps/healers die and the monk is the only survivor? The monk may even be able to survive after the rest of the raid dies with just a healing pet... until the enrage timer hits since all the dps died due to no shield fortress.

[Meconopsis]

If we're talking about comparing Knight and Monk...

 

-Monks have better health and defense rates, no doubt.

-Monks can absorb more damage overall by itself.

-Monks have low single target threat and no constant skill to provide threat, nor area threat..

-Monks take less advantage of buffs compared to Knight with Battle Tactics.

 

-Knights have more damage for single target threat and their defense rates are not far off from Monk.

-Knights can defend an entire party overall damage taken.

-Knights can handle adds better than Monk, and has more effective threat obtaining skills.

-Knights take advantage of buffs better than Monk, such as Earth Shield.

 

As you can see here, knights > monks anytime of the day. The only advantage monk has in a party setting is if the boss does not have AoE moves and the party doesn't rely on any buffs to improve overall effectiveness.

[ChopChopz]

Well, I could do a random AoD H run, take along a monk, record it and fail horribly compared to HyVent: but would you accept that as proof that knights are better than monks? I think not. On the other hand, if you manage to show me a video of a team with a monk and no knight (so no shield fortress) doing just as good as HyVent if not better with similar gears (yes, explorer buffs/mayor title can be used since HyVent used them but no gears better than colo) - I would accept that as proof that monks are as good as/better than knights. Therefore, it is more appropriate for you to show a video as proof. Doesn't even have to be you in it. HyVent's point has nothing to do with mine. Like I said, monks may be able to survive better than knights, but what's the point if all the dps/healers die and the monk is the only survivor? The monk may even be able to survive after the rest of the raid dies with just a healing pet... until the enrage timer hits since all the dps died due to no shield fortress.

 

Well, if anything, hyvent video just proved my point that Shield fortress is never necessary.

Please spend 7 minutes to watch their vid, pay attention to the buff, and shield fortress is used only twice on around 1:55 and 6:30, However, it does not save anyone at all, it is not even used when the boss doing AoE. In their video, they always use deluge/sanc against aoes.

 

 

Also in ratmaster fight, SF is more for knight to save themselves from the room wide AoE and not teammates.

Edited by ChopChopz, 13 October 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[ChopChopz]

If we're talking about comparing Knight and Monk...

 

-Monks have better health and defense rates, no doubt.

-Monks can absorb more damage overall by itself.

-Monks have low single target threat and no constant skill to provide threat, nor area threat..

-Monks take less advantage of buffs compared to Knight with Battle Tactics.

 

-Knights have more damage for single target threat and their defense rates are not far off from Monk.

-Knights can defend an entire party overall damage taken.

-Knights can handle adds better than Monk, and has more effective threat obtaining skills.

-Knights take advantage of buffs better than Monk, such as Earth Shield.

 

 

As you can see here, knights > monks anytime of the day. The only advantage monk has in a party setting is if the boss does not have AoE moves and the party doesn't rely on any buffs to improve overall effectiveness.

 

Please, a raid has two tanks, monk is a better main tank. With monk/BM as main tanks there is still one tank slot for swordman.

Two knight is better than two monk for sure, because monk has no buff and no crowd control

However monk + knight/monk + warrior is much better than 2knights/knight + warrior.

 

Even you go to embus AoD raid you can see poor knights being one hit by maya purple, how are they "better tank anytime of the day"?

 

I am always talking about endgame raid which is AoD/CoA.

If you are talking about low teir raid, RHD or low level party/dungeon, then we are talking about different things and there is no point to continue.

I agree monk suck in a party/low level raid,and most people even myself will always prefer knight/warrior because they can tank and dps very well at the same time againt those boss.

But in CoA/AoD, monk really tank way better than any swordman and they are needed.

Edited by ChopChopz, 13 October 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Vanillarox]

I've partied with Monks more than "a few dozen times", because I know a good number of people that main the Monk class...and from what I've seen, they can hold threat better than most other tanks, and can take hits better as well. Maybe they're just better players though, anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

 

I like how you just flat out ignore Beastmasters in every comment you make. You complain about how underpowered you believe Monks are, and constantly ask for attention about it, but you fail to mention the class that ACTUALLY needs it quite a bit more. And while I'm complaining about what you always talk about...why do you assume that everyone is either falling under the category of believing that monks are underpowered and need buffs, or has no idea what they're talking about?

 

You really shouldn't compare Monks to other classes so much. All the classes are already way too similar by the fact that practically all of them are based around some form of combo system. If you keep comparing them and asking for relevant changes, you're really just asking for every class to be identical for the sake of balance...which destroys the point of having unique classes in the first place. Like I said, every class has/should have their distinctive role in a raid, and monks have that. Just because you can't do anything other than play main tank doesn't mean the class is useless; that's like saying just because a priest can do nothing but heal = they need more variety in their skill tree and severely need buffs because their DPS is garbage (which is true, by the way...I've yet to see a priest complaining about how they get outshined by literally every single other dps class in the game. Monks, on the other hand...).  Comparing Asura Strike to Moonlight Dance? Really? Why shouldn't a dedicated DPS class's burst skill be significantly better than that of a tank? I guess monks should just be better than every class. In regards to self-heal and attack modifier for the weapon: monks don't need a self heal, they have other ways to deal with that (it's like saying a sin needs a self-heal compared to a rogue; sins have other ways of dealing with that). The crappy attack modifier for the weapon I agree with, monks have horrendous scaling which will only get worse as high tiers of gear come out, and this should be addressed at some point.

 

If you're going to talk about builds...for the most part, all classes have a cookie-cutter build, and you're allowed to switch around 5-15 points or so (unless you do something drastically different, which generally is inefficient due to game mechanics). If you want the monk skill tree redesigned or something, you might as well ask for ALL the skill trees to be redesigned, because almost all classes are plagued by that same problem.

 

And yes, most monks are asking to be able to do everything. Just from your post...you want a self-heal, more crowd control, party buff(s), and a buff to an already strong burst skill. Basically, what a lot of monks want is to do everything that a warrior/knight can do, but retain what makes them a monk, i.e. just give monks Tension Relax, Defender, Grand Cross/Brandish Storm, Shield Fortress, Battle Order, and Moonlight Dance. THEN the monk class will be balanced and won't be a garbage class.

 

[Sigh...long post is long. Why am I still awake at this hour? I get interested in stuff like this that normally I could care less about...no more posts from me here. Time to continue to ignore all the complaining monks because lol]

 

Why would I talk about a Beastmaster buff/rework in my Monk balance priority topic? I'm not familiar with Beastmasters. Are you? Go make a topic about it. Get some support. Get people talking. You're free to do it. I don't see why I have to.

 

The reason why I believe people either fall into two categories (Monks need a buff/I don't know what the hell I am talking about) is because those are the only two categories in this discussion. Is there a single person on this forum that believes Monks hit just hard enough? No boost in damage at all? If so, please play a Monk to 50, go party with a Rogue/Ranger of equal gear and please tell me how your threat meter is looking. While you're at it, go refine your weapon and tell me what changed. For extra credit, compare the Colo weapon to the AoD H weapon and tell me how much stronger you are. Anyone who thinks Monks don't need a buff clearly doesn't know what they are saying. It's really that simple.

 

I compare Monks to other classes because they are examples of classes with utilities. What is wrong with wanting some crowd control, a viable stun, some boost to my damage and having our best skill actually be worth the 60 seconds I have to wait to use it again? How can I not compare my class to a Knight who gets some nice crowd control, two stuns/knockdowns and some decent damage? If you don't want me to compare Monks to other classes, fine. Won't change my wishlist. When my party has a lot of adds on them, I can't really do jack. In PvP when I've exhausted my two Guillotine Fists, I pretty much have nothing left to do but get kited and die due to no stun and a slow gap closer (That I have to max to get anywhere with it, sadly).

 

When you've played a Monk to 50 and actually know what you are talking about, feel free to tell me you are hitting harder than the other tanks and that you're holding threat better. On equal gear, that is not statistically possible (unless you are getting lucky and every hit is a crit).

[SoraOfKHK]

I personally think the 60 seconds for Guillotine Fist is just inexcusable. It's bad enough that we only get 30 seconds to use it, then we have to wait 60 seconds to use it again.

 

Oh, did I mention that it's basically equal to 3 Raging Blows (level 5) and 3 Heavy Tackles (level 5) in damage? Guillotine Fist as it stands is more of a risk than anything. It hits a very small amount of damage. Didn't Rogues get Moonlight Dance changed because of similar reasons?

 

I get that we're not a DPS class, but the fact remains that all other classes have an average of a 20 second cool-down on their finishers. Why can't a Monk?

 

I think that Guillotine Fist should have the cool-down reduced to 20 seconds. The duration of Fury should be reduced to 10 seconds, and the cool-down should be reduced to 10 seconds. This means the duration will be 10 seconds, and the cool-down will be 20 seconds (technically 10 seconds, after the Fury duration ends). This would at least allow us to use our finisher more often.

 

Other tanks get 20-30 second cool-downs (Warriors, Knights, and Beastmasters) from what I can see of their skill trees. I see no reason that Monks should be so restricted.

 

At the very least, Guillotine Fist should give something like 100-300% additional threat on impact, so at least we'd be able to hold threat effectively. We can currently use it 3 times every 2 minutes.

 

Also, Monks used to have twice the STR and INT they have now, along with twice the Physical Attack, due to being able to wear 2 weapons. I'm starting to wonder if the Developers just forgot to correct the stats after they changed this around...

 

Rogues and Assassins used to have the option to use one or two (they also used to have different player icons, and yadda yadda changes happen). When they were changed to having 2 no matter what, they were still given twice the stats, and twice the Attack Power that they would've had if they were wearing 2 weapons. It makes no sense that Monks are only getting half.

 

They used to have the option to go DPS or to be a Tank. They no longer have that.

[mysticalre]

Oh, did I mention that it's basically equal to 3 Raging Blows (level 5) and 3 Heavy Tackles (level 5) in damage? Guillotine Fist as it stands is more of a risk than anything. It hits a very small amount of damage. Didn't Rogues get Moonlight Dance changed because of similar reasons?

@ this part:

I recorded the animation lengths and skimmed through some footage, here's some info (did about 10 test runs of each):
- the moonlight animation ranges were 3.15s low - 3.25s high
- 2 double attacks + 1 deadly blow took me 3.20s low - 3.30s high

(I was too lazy to filter the frames and crap to be more exact, that`s too much work)

Assuming you had 5 combo points at the beginning of both sequences, then both do 110% damage. I guess the rest is up to you to decide, it's mainly a question of "do you want to have a 110% damage burst skill?"

 

Using Moonlight Dance was actually worse for Rogue DPS than using Thief skills (before the patch buffing it). Would be worthwhile to try the same tests on Monk skills as well, for both GFist and TSS.

 

would also be pretty funny if Monks ended up doing more DPS by not having GFist in their builds because of the animation time & miss rate lol