173 replies to this topic

[Nifa]

We are able to purify sleep, because of the massive amount if sleep we often keep the tactic of leaving one cleric way in the back, not near the group. Using aoe purify then cancels the sleep making people able to move again. This way its actually smarter to wait for the opposing cleric the w aste their sleep on running into the group and sleeping them, in anticipation of the champs/aoes running in and doing their thing as they try to whipe the party from the map.
 
Funny as it is, its actually a good idea to mute champs as well, most clerics dont purify and the time it takes to purify them is another few second for the the team to counter this strategy.

I don't think I've ever been able to purify sleep or stun (actually I think I meant stun, just got the two mixed up) unless it's lagging out on the other player's sides or they don't notice they aren't asleep anymore.. But yeah, actually, why can't we purify stun?

 

Regarding the 1v3 cleric (or more) situation, I have also had many CDs in a row where it's more like 3v0 clerics. It's really annoying. There are also now a couple of clerics on Draco that are FS but don't have any buffs ...

Edited by Nifa, 03 January 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[Logi]

I don't think I've ever been able to purify sleep or stun (actually I think I meant stun, just got the two mixed up) unless it's lagging out on the other player's sides or they don't notice they aren't asleep anymore.. But yeah, actually, why can't we purify stun?

 

Alrighty, because I can see the sleep symbol disappear everytime, so yea probably stuns, the thing is they happen so fast I have more important things to do in my mind, a 2 second stun ? Once I purified you only had about 1 sec of stun left anyway.

[Leonis]

But the heals, if healing the players, is not the real problem since if there are only 1 or 2 clerics on a side it is hard to heal the team.  The problem comes in when there are many clerics on a team which leads to a stalemate basically or the clerics that are healing the crystal for points and not the team.  The cooldowns for heals works to keep the spamming down in general.  And if the 1 or 2 clerics are muted, stunned, slept or have no mana the heals really don't cause any problems, since there are not many then.  So I don't understand your statements about excessive healing.  There are plenty of CDs that are played with only one cleric on a team.  

 

The "problem" isn't just one factor, it is many. In my view over the discussions taking place here, there are several factors that all contribute to the blanketing issue being discussed around Clerics and what they provide.
 

One thing I am doubtful about is that this may still boil down to the number of clerics. If there is only one cleric hindering their ability to heal will be devastating compared to if there are 5 clerics. But, we have no information yet so we'll have to wait and see.

 

The quantity of Clerics that can be on one team can be considered an issue, however that's something of a point of strategy if you have players who pre-create a team in such a fashion. That isn't something that should be penalized, but at the same time, making everyone who is queued wait for the other side of the match to also have the same match up would extend the wait time and produce that frustration of waiting extended periods for a match to queue off.

 

Most of the discussions I've been reading and reviewing have been to suggestions to directly stifle and hinder, while I am looking the other direction of empowering other classes that are perhaps spoken of less, to give them additional reasons for participating and abilities that would counter the current 'favored' classes.

 

One of the goals I'm hoping to see in the longevity of ROSE is that each class has something they can offer to making PvP competitive for all.

[Bendersmom]

The "problem" isn't just one factor, it is many. In my view over the discussions taking place here, there are several factors that all contribute to the blanketing issue being discussed around Clerics and what they provide.
Agree one 100%.  There are many factors.

 

The quantity of Clerics that can be on one team can be considered an issue, however that's something of a point of strategy if you have players who pre-create a team in such a fashion. That isn't something that should be penalized, but at the same time, making everyone who is queued wait for the other side of the match to also have the same match up would extend the wait time and produce that frustration of waiting extended periods for a match to queue off.

I agree, I don't want the queue to go on indefinitely trying to match up teams.  We tend to pre-create the team as you suggested but then the other side has 0-1 cleric and our team has the 3-4 that we pre-grouped.  Therefore back to the problem at hand. I for one love to be able to group with my clan or friends, but then you can make uber teams vs a mix of players with no cleric.  

 

Most of the discussions I've been reading and reviewing have been to suggestions to directly stifle and hinder, while I am looking the other direction of empowering other classes that are perhaps spoken of less, to give them additional reasons for participating and abilities that would counter the current 'favored' classes.

I love the idea of empowering other classes and if that would help balance out the CDs some that would be great.  There are rarely regular knights in game since they get very low points and I have not seen a dual raider in CD.  Also most of the scouts are xbow just like most of the knights are xbow since both are very strong now.  And mages are powerful at the crystal but die so often (usually first target by opposing team) that the players that play them get very frustrated.  So hopefully you will think of ways to empower the less played classes and people will stop playing heal spaming clerics.

 

One of the goals I'm hoping to see in the longevity of ROSE is that each class has something they can offer to making PvP competitive for all.

And thank Leo for reading all  of this and replying.  And thank you to the community for actually discussing the problems/solutions/concerns in a non trashing way.

Edited by Bendersmom, 03 January 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[Leonis]

I think, for the most part, everyone here has been discussing this in a very good manner and bringing up viewpoints, opinions on solutions and their impact. I enjoy seeing this and am encouraging of it to continue for future situations. Unfortunately, one of the reasons I'm holding back some of the details behind some changes is because the knowledge could be abused in one fashion or another. And though I don't believe any of you discussing it here would do that, you aren't the only ones who read the forums So, that's why I'm unwilling to disclose some details, but hope that you all can trust us in that we're doing the best we can and making the decisions based on your feedback and our design goals.

[Nifa]

Alrighty, because I can see the sleep symbol disappear everytime, so yea probably stuns, the thing is they happen so fast I have more important things to do in my mind, a 2 second stun ? Once I purified you only had about 1 sec of stun left anyway.

Feels like a long time when you're the one stunned, especially for things like caves.

 

The quantity of Clerics that can be on one team can be considered an issue, however that's something of a point of strategy if you have players who pre-create a team in such a fashion. That isn't something that should be penalized, but at the same time, making everyone who is queued wait for the other side of the match to also have the same match up would extend the wait time and produce that frustration of waiting extended periods for a match to queue off.

I think a lot of the 4v1 cleric matches are not because of pregrouping though.. Sure, if you want to group with 3 clerics and 2 more happen to join, you'll have to make do with lots less ap. But when you join CD, don't have a cleric on your team, and you face a pregroup that you know also didn't have a cleric or only had 1, and then they end up with 4, it get's pretty annoying.

[Leonis]

Thanks Nifa, I'll see about looking in to that kind of situation and if there's a check for it or not to equally distribute Clerics beyond a start point.

[Logi]

Feels like a long time when you're the one stunned, especially for things like caves.

 

This is the same thing as before, you are probably talking about the sleeps from Cave of Ulverick, I havent been stunned in any other dungeon. I get muted in Halls of Oblivion.... The CoU bosses can sleep you 4 to 5 times in a row ( I have not experienced more), it seems like forever then, and it also seems to be a very large range, though I have seen gunners not been hit by it :S

[asuboy]

One more thing, please fix raiders or bow scouts dodge or defense, it seems that the dodge after the skill update is useless. People with below 2000 accuracy hits 100 % on raiders or bow scouts with 3,2 k dodge . Secondly, raiders or bow scouts have low hp like 17k to 18 k , a sword champ can damage a raider like 7k on beserk , mage's aoe takes like 4k as well. Thats why this class is kind of left behind after the skill updates. Although raiders are supposed to have high crit and aspeed , still raiders only damage like 600 - 1300 on crit, raiders will never kill a champ cause they will die first regarding their low deff and low hp . And raiders or bow scouts always get low points on CD , not like clerics, mage or champs, please make dodge useful again ... And for the last, I'm not complaining about an xbow knight, but come on, 11k defense , high block rate, dispel skill , 2500 ap, 2k+ accuracy . Kind of over power i think and for the record , i have all characters geared up . Therefore, I'm not complaining because i don't have certain types of characters ... This is just my personal thoughts . Thanks for reading ...

[Leonis]

2000 Accuracy vs 3200 Dodge = Roughly a 62.5% hit chance. You are not supposed to dodge everything perfectly.

 

Raiders or Scouts having low HP, invest in HP gear or strength, those are choices in build. The class having a supported dodge ability helps against low accuracy builds, but is their weakness to high accuracy builds.

 

I don't know what classes you're fighting to be doing 600-1300 crits, but that's also a pretty big gap of damage. If it were more consistent, perhaps I'd see it as an issue, but just from what you're stating, it seems like perhaps you're picking poor targets. No class is supposed to be great against every class. If that's your expectation, I'm sorry to disappoint. Raiders are not powerhouses, they are quick striking and stealthy, cunning and strategic, by design.

 

We recently had an update that changed how dodge generates. I'm sorry you missed that. But since it's been less an issue and more about adjusting your build as generation has been improved upon and scales better in comparison between build choices and class designs. During this time period, the Knight block rate was reduced and many of the points you're 'complaining about' were addressed and haven't really been commented on for a while. So I have to ask, are you digging up old issues and perhaps jumping on the bandwagon a bit late or are these actual experiences in-game right now?

 

If so, I need to ask you to give more details than what you're stating because they are a bit vague.

[coalchamberloco]

A big issue making dodge worthless right now because everyone is running around with 3k+ acc that they get from buff slave charm arti/bourg.  There is no max dodge buff that be gained in this fashion, thus acc can easily outpace dodge when working with max charm buffs from every class.

 

So our options are limited here, either waste everyone's time and money they spent on making these sets, or keep every dodge based class in your game not really viable in a tg type war.  I don't think there is a good option here.  Now everyone is going back to the champs they abandoned back during the slew of champ nerfs.  I don't know if you guys ever pictured every class getting +200 to every stat (except charm).

 

 

[DoubleRose]

"Raiders are not powerhouses, they are quick striking and stealthy, cunning and strategic, by design."

 

If raiders are meant to be opportunist assassin type characters, buff their movement speed because there are no gap closers in this game (and please don't add them). Add some small movement speed passives to raider passives.  Give raider's haste 10/20/30/40/50 movement speed and raider's reflex's 10/20/30/40/50 movement speed.  Instead of weakening other class's buffs that counter raiders, make raider passives amplify their strengths.

 

Also, dual raiders are not stealthy.

Edited by DoubleRose, 04 January 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[Logi]

A big issue making dodge worthless right now because everyone is running around with 3k+ acc that they get from buff slave charm arti/bourg.  There is no max dodge buff that be gained in this fashion, thus acc can easily outpace dodge when working with max charm buffs from every class.

 

Nerfing the buffs might help or something else, I do however think that trying to balance things while taking into account people that spend money to create a buff arti with high charm solely for higher con/sen/acc buffs ( which are not a normal thing) will cause problems. This because its essentialy using a high ish lvl character only for 1 or 2 buffs ( so making the character otherwise unusefull since they are prob missing their main or second stat by alot of points), and it is not what they thought people would do. I heard about these people using charm-characters to get the best buff, it feels like buffsets all over again ( when you look at the amount of time invested). The obvious downside is: 1 a wasted char, 2 those buffs dont last that long, 3 one dispell can take away those advantages if you get the right buff.

 

I\d prefer them trying to balance things out for game arena, 1 vs 1 TG and TG wars were never most fair. You can just bring more people, unlike GA. Having said all this I do get the feeling that dodge is underpowered as raiders in GA or even dungeons are characters I always have to heal like crazy ( unless they stay out of trouble). I'm sure leonis will say something about them taking a more tactical approach when fighting, and not trying to be a tank, or tank anything, but being able to take a few hits seems needed.

 

Still its quite probable that many such raiders have high acc, crit/ AP builds. With such a build you shouldnt expect to be able to tank alot, you could try a more tanky build but you would loose your killing power. Its a trade-off, but just so you understand, I am not in favour of one or the other atm, I'm just trying to see what it is that makes this a problem. Are people just expecting too much from their dodgehawker with acc/crit build or are there really too low dodge stats? Charm arti's are an exeption, trying to fit all the exeptions into the rule makes for hard balancing.

 

Perhaps the solution isnt a gain in dodge but a weaking of acc an certain classes......

 

Help me out here

[Phish]

A big issue making dodge worthless right now because everyone is running around with 3k+ acc that they get from buff slave charm arti/bourg.  There is no max dodge buff that be gained in this fashion, thus acc can easily outpace dodge when working with max charm buffs from every class.

 

So our options are limited here, either waste everyone's time and money they spent on making these sets, or keep every dodge based class in your game not really viable in a tg type war.  I don't think there is a good option here.  Now everyone is going back to the champs they abandoned back during the slew of champ nerfs.  I don't know if you guys ever pictured every class getting +200 to every stat (except charm).

 

This effects TG wars only. This is less of a problem with accuracy and dodge as it is with TG wars which have their own flaws already and are probably the most unbalanced form of pvp in Rose. The main reason is because there are no rules. You can't balance something that doesn't have rules. 

Edited by Phish, 04 January 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[coalchamberloco]

This effects TG wars only. This is less of a problem with accuracy and dodge as it is with TG wars which have their own flaws already and are probably the most unbalanced form of pvp in Rose. The main reason is because there are no rules. You can't balance something that doesn't have rules. 

 

I was just pointing out that this is where a lot of the dodge is completely useless talk comes from.  I know there is no fixing tg war imbalance, before it was blessings and sigils, now it is guys with +200 buffs. 

 

I just worry that they might nerf accuracy again, which gimps the hell out of anyone not using 4 diff characters to buff with. 

[ChampPower]

I hate all raider and bow scout. I am not hate them because they are weak or strong, but because those guys have no concept about teamwork. All they are concern about is going 1vs1. That is old style and should not appear in war. When I think about war, I think about lot of people banding together to achieve one goal. I think about teamwork. I think about group vs group. I do not think that is the case with bow scout and raider. When they ask for buff or heal, they are always run away before you can do anything about it. After that, they are always complaining about not getting buff or heal. I am a cleric, but I cannot ditch the group to heal one or two non-cooperate raider(s). I think their speeds are to blame. Their dodges are blame. Their egos are too blame. They are too depending on their superior speeds and dodge. I would love to see the DEV Team do something about it.

[Nifa]

This is the same thing as before, you are probably talking about the sleeps from Cave of Ulverick, I havent been stunned in any other dungeon. I get muted in Halls of Oblivion.... The CoU bosses can sleep you 4 to 5 times in a row ( I have not experienced more), it seems like forever then, and it also seems to be a very large range, though I have seen gunners not been hit by it :S

2nd floor of Halls has stuns...from the guys with the poles (erm, razor spears) I think. I think I've gotten up to 9 stuns in a row from caves bosses, but usually you have just enough time to pot once before the next stun. Can't heal though since casting animation is interrupted by the stun. My mage and ba can attack from just outside the range of caves stuns.

 

But not being able to puri stuns is kind of an issue for the squishy classes such as mage and ba. They can't run away or throw up a mana shield (or pot) before they die since the stun can't be purified when perhaps the cleric is out of heals.

[Logi]

2nd floor of Halls has stuns...from the guys with the poles (erm, razor spears) I think. I think I've gotten up to 9 stuns in a row from caves bosses, but usually you have just enough time to pot once before the next stun. Can't heal though since casting animation is interrupted by the stun. My mage and ba can attack from just outside the range of caves stuns.

 

But not being able to puri stuns is kind of an issue for the squishy classes such as mage and ba. They can't run away or throw up a mana shield (or pot) before they die since the stun can't be purified when perhaps the cleric is out of heals.

You can't puri because as cleric you are also stunned or slept or muted, thats just how it works. If you want to avoid getting muted in HoO just stand back as cleric while the guardians annoy yer friends. There isnt much you can do to avoid the mute from the boss.... man that range.... Still this is were having a tankclass comes in, as long as 1 person is able to withstand the assault for the duration of 1 mute or 1 sleep you are fine. Removing these would make it all alot easier, and I already find dungeons easy. Mages and BA's are squishy classes, so you pointing out they have trouble seems just fine.

[Nifa]

I know you can't puri yourself/others if you are hit by the stun yourself, but if you are somewhere off to the side and a member gets stunned with all the mobs on them, you can't puri them to let them escape, only heal and hope they don't die instantly. I also find dungeons insanely easy, but I think that is a topic for another thread. I point out the squishy classes because I would love to see more of them present in CD. It is rather disheartening to play a class where you are dead the entire time bar 5 seconds of combat. Suppose your team has a Mage that is smart about staying ranged. He's off to the side attacking the mob while you are in the mob keeping your champs alive. A raider sneaks up to the Mage and stuns him. As of now, you can only focus all your heals on him and hope he outlasts the stun and is able to run to you for party heals while you hope the rest of the team doesn't die, or just abandon him, knowing there is no point in healing him since you won't have enough for the rest of the team or what few heals you can toss at him won't do anything. I suppose not being able to puri stuns is just a minor issue though since most clerics have yet to learn to puri ...

[DestinyDeoxys]

I know you can't puri yourself/others if you are hit by the stun yourself, but if you are somewhere off to the side and a member gets stunned with all the mobs on them, you can't puri them to let them escape, only heal and hope they don't die instantly. I also find dungeons insanely easy, but I think that is a topic for another thread. I point out the squishy classes because I would love to see more of them present in CD. It is rather disheartening to play a class where you are dead the entire time bar 5 seconds of combat. Suppose your team has a Mage that is smart about staying ranged. He's off to the side attacking the mob while you are in the mob keeping your champs alive. A raider sneaks up to the Mage and stuns him. As of now, you can only focus all your heals on him and hope he outlasts the stun and is able to run to you for party heals while you hope the rest of the team doesn't die, or just abandon him, knowing there is no point in healing him since you won't have enough for the rest of the team or what few heals you can toss at him won't do anything. I suppose not being able to puri stuns is just a minor issue though since most clerics have yet to learn to puri ...

 

It is a known issue since the day of introduction the idea of a group, you can purify stun, but the group interface is known to have 1 sec delay, same for all kinds of debuffs (mute / AP down / def down so on).

A mage is dead either staying with the cleric or staying out of the mob, especially if you are on defender side. But a mage is very deadly, if the player knows how to play mage (positioning, mapping auto aim stun, utilize the mana shield and knowing when to fight, when to run).

Apparently, the cold snap is bugged, sometimes the 0 movement debuff does not kick in, I don't know why, hope the GM can look into it.

[Bendersmom]

I know some of us complain about the summons in GA, they do a lot of damage.  I don't know about any of you but I think the Judgement Knight is sooo OP it is insane.  They do a lot of damage and are impossible to kill almost.  When I attack it (war cleric) I don't even hit it, When attacking on my bourg I do no damage to it.  I can kill players ok, but nothing to the summon.  The hawk is ok, you can kill it, the hunters you can kill, the cleric swords you can kill, but people don't even bother trying to take down the Judgement Knights anymore.  They just try to get away from them.  All summons do more damage than I think they should, but the Judgement Knight can take players that even have pretty good def in a few hits.

[pdfisher]

I know I am by no means a good player when it comes to CD or other pvp games, but holy cow! That Judgement Knight takes me down in three hits sometimes! I really wish that summons would be considered a pvp creature when in pvp games!

[jerremy]

I know I am by no means a good player when it comes to CD or other pvp games, but holy cow! That Judgement Knight takes me down in three hits sometimes! I really wish that summons would be considered a pvp creature when in pvp games!

I think it already is like that. The problem of the judgment knight is that it has far too much scaling on the artisans stats (especially critical, which is nearly three times the amount of crit the summoner has), and has high base movement and attack speed.

Edited by jerremy, 06 January 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[Bendersmom]

It hurts like hell.  The char can sit back and let the judgement knight take down the other players.  That is not how ti should be, you should be able to at least kill it.  I have seen many diff classes try but they are sooo hard to kill.  My bourg, who can kill players, doesn't even hurt the Judgement knight.  And they move through walls and all too.

[jerremy]

The judgment summon appears to have approximately 2.8 times as much critical as the one who summoned it (to give a few examples, with 250crit the judgment will have 695, and with 325crit the judgment will have 903 crit).

In my opinion, that's just far too much. This amount of scaling is so high that not even an axe champ can land a critical hit on this summon, and the summon will pretty much always have a 50% crit chance on anyone if you just build a bit of crit.

Would be more appropriate to make the crit be the same as the summoner, or maybe slightly higher, like 1.2 or 1.5 times higher.