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#1 Heimdallr

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:52 PM

What is bugged, or undesirable about the Mechanic?

What skills are fine, need tweaking?
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#2 Sera

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:25 PM

Things that are broken:

1. Weapon Upgrade - This is made worse in renewal because you cannot overupgrade to the new limits and job changing to Mechanic destroys any bonus you may have gotten with it.

2. Hover - Avoid traps and any other magic attacks. Quite simply, it doesn't do this. It avoids Hunter traps only. It does not avoid Ranger traps. It also does not avoid magic attacks of any kind.

Things that need tweaking:

1. Magic Gear - The mado needs to be a standard mount that is not lost on death.

2. FAW Magic Decoy and FAW Silver Sniper - Need to ignore flee. Need to increase the damage on them to at least 500 damage per hit. Possibly consider an aspd increase as well.

3. Cooldowns on Magnetic Field, Neutral Barrier, Stealth Field, and Infrared Scan - These skills should be evaluated with a WoE situation in mind and in relation to the skills that other classes possess. 3 to 5 minutes is much too long of a cooldown for a standard skill in a WoE situation, considering recall has a 5 minute cooldown on it. The skills should have about a ten second delay in between the expiration of their buff and the time it takes to recast them again imo.
It really removes a lot of the fun out of playing a class when you can basically only use half your skills once before you die.

4. Axe Mastery and Fire/Earth Research - These are Mastery-type skills. Most classes get their Masteries as first class, and even then they are considered useless pre-requisites. Mastery damage/resistance is not useful in RO and it never has been. One or the other should perhaps be evaluated to be changed to a weapon attack skill or an armor defence skill to give a bit of a boost to axe builds, considering the very high straight attack stereotype of the class is kind of broken by Royal Guard's Inspiration + Shield Spell giving them 330 attack and easily surpassing anything an axe smith might have.

5. Axe Boomerang - needs its cooldown REMOVED. It also needs the knockback effect removed to balance that out. The knockback effect should instead be given to Power Swing.

6. Cart Boost - This skill should be re-evaluated in relation to the Genetic skill of the same name. Also, perhaps a little wishful thinking on my behalf, but it should not be removed in any way other than Dispel. This is a bread-and-butter WoE skill for melee mechanics, and it has always been much too easy to remove/nullify in relation to other classes' core skills.

7. Stealth Field - The AoE on this should probably be increased a little bit. Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but it seems as if mado gear mechs were designed to 'push' in WoE, and realistically, you cannot keep people in the stealth field and move around because the AoE is too small. Since it doesn't affect the user, there's really no legitimate point in getting this skill at all at the moment.

8. Power Swing - Axe Tornado is pretty good in PVM, and Axe Boomerang could be a good statusing skill if it didn't have a cooldown and a knockback effect that no one will ever want to use, but Power Swing in particular stands out as having no purpose in the game whatsoever. This is particularly infuriating because it is the final tier axe skill and it serves no particular function in the game. That would be fine if it were just a pre-req skill, but like, really, if you have a final tier skill that doesn't deal damage, inflict useful status effects, or cast useful skills, why even bother putting it in the game?

9. Overheating is dumb.

Skills that are fine:

1. Frontslide/Backslide - This skill works great, gives the class excellent mobility, it is somewhat unfortunate that the class cannot do a whole lot once they get to their destination though.

2. Arm Cannon - The adjustable AoE vs. damage levels is great. This skill is useful in both PVM and WoE and is just all around useful imo.

3. Ice Launcher - Skill is just nice. Not overpowered by any means, you'll never kill anyone with it, but there's really no complaining about it. It does moderate/low damage in a sizable AoE and inflicts useful statuses.

4. Flame Launcher - The range on this skill is perhaps a little short, but I consider that more a tradeoff than anything, as it inflicts a really nasty status effect that makes it worth trying to get close to the enemy.

Other:

1. Suicidal Destruction - Currently I'm on the wall about this skill. It's not a bad skill by any means, but perhaps that is the problem with it. This skill just deals so much damage that it more or less becomes the function and purpose of a mado build mechanic, and personally, a suicidal skill should not be a core skill for any class. However, I do not think this skill needs tweaking either, if some of the other things I mentioned in this thread are adjusted so that they become more useful and there is no need to simply suicide.



Anything I did not comment on I either consider a useless pre-requisite skill or don't really have any experience using.

Edited by Sera, 01 November 2010 - 03:43 PM.

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#3 Emichio

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:15 PM

From the original Mastersmith skills some where (unintentionally) downgraded apparently..

Bugged?


1.- Weapon Upgrade, me personally and other mastersmiths noticed Weapon Upgrade is working as intended, people Like Sera (Previous post) however claim that it is broken, ( Mastersmiths get job 70, mechanics 50 ). checking the skill would be nice !.
2.- Weaponry Research does not add Hit at all anymore.
3.- High Speed Cart Ram, does not ignore shield reflect anymore.

Tweaking.

1.- Cart Boost This skill should be updated to something like the Genetisicts Cart Boost.

and on other notes... although asking too much
Pile Bunker needs a slot !
HSCR should be affected by Gloomy Shyness too !, then it would be like a real class >_>, similar to lord knights but lower range~

Edited by Jaibuu, 01 November 2010 - 04:20 PM.

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#4 Sera

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:21 PM

HSCR in gloomy would be horrifically over powered in PVM. I'm able to deal like 18k per hit at attack speed as it stands.
It doesn't really need a damage boost, there were people killing with it on Ygg, the problem is just that cart boost is removed by EVERYTHING.

I do agree that the formula needs to be reworked though.
1. It bypasses plant defence.
2. It does not bypass shield reflect.
3. It is modified by +% damage modifiers, but does not take statuses or rideword hat.

Edited by Sera, 01 November 2010 - 04:23 PM.

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#5 Emichio

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:50 PM

Gloomy itself at 3x is a problem, it should be 2x.

Before renewal and before rebirth classes, blacksmiths and mastersmiths had been usually the highest "single target damage per second" characters. and mechanics don't really get anything better, while the other 3rd classes now outdamage it by alot, even in area :).
Its not a serious request but something like that would be nice haha, its sad that the mechanics don't really do any real damage anymore.
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#6 Sera

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:58 PM

I don't think the problem is HSCR though, HSCR is still a very powerful skill. If you don't believe me, make a Str/Agi/Dex mechanic with a Giant Axe, full attack gear, endow, and just go to town on something. You can kill stuff in thors at like level 9x very easily with it, and the monsters there are like 40 levels above you.

The problem is more that none of the axe mech skills do really anything at all. Axe Boomerang has a knockback and a ridiculous cooldown. Power Swing, as a skill, is just complete garbage.

The reason this is all an issue is because axe and mado skills are incompatible. Smith skills cannot be used with the mado, but the smith skills like HSCR are still pretty good skills.

So you basically have to choose between two main builds which do not compliment each other in any way. The mado build being needlessly complex and riddled with skill bugs and cooldown errors, and the axe build lacking in skill diversity.
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#7 Emichio

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:10 PM

Ya, Mado is the support side, Axe is the battling side.


With the current status, Axe skills based mechanic is pretty useless at pvp, So any boost that makes this class particularly useful at ANYTHING would be nice. otherwise, there is no point using the class on that area.

abit offtopic, but why would you HSCR monsters 40 lvls above you? they would give you useless experience, you can just oneshot mobs with Axe Tornado, which does similar damage compared to HSCR.
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#8 Sera

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:14 PM

because I was trying to point out that it's not a weak skill, even if you can't usefully level with it

The class is still excellent in PVM at dealing large amounts of damage per second, but the problem is that PVM has changed so that this is no longer desirable. There are no more high cost / high reward monsters anymore. Everything is tailor made to be OHKO'd or killed in large mobs.
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#9 Emichio

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:22 PM

PVM is fine, there is no problem on that area, its PVP where they basically can't really deal significant damage at the high levels, 135~150.
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#10 brandon

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:37 PM

Cart Boost needs to be updated to either be on par with Geneticist Cart Boost or both need to be dumbed down since it is like a 24/7 speed pot.
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#11 Brindizer

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:33 PM

Acceleration needs to do more than it currently does. For three skill points it consumes a Fuel and only provides a 90 second increase agility effect. Since Adrenaline Rush can no longer be used, why not turn this skill into the new Quicken? 5% ASPD at level 1, 10% at level 2, 15% at level 3 or something to that effect.

The Pile Bunker skill will remove Auto Guard, but I feel as if it may as well take out Shield Reflect and Defending Aura as well, but even so those skills could be immediately reactivated.

For Remodel Mainframe, adding 15 defense at level 4 is pretty underwhelming. Why not 15% damage reduction? By comparison, Skin Tempering is a second job skill and does 5%. In its current form, it's unlikely this skill will ever go above its prerequisite level of 2.

I feel as if Boost Knuckle has a great damage output, but its SP cost is too high to reasonably level with. Minimum two hits to kill something, that's 60 SP for a single monster. May as well have just used Arm Cannon!
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#12 Sera

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:57 PM

Core problem with the theory of the class: It's needlessly complex and wanting for direct power.
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#13 Doddler

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 11:29 AM

If they let you use non MADO skills, get buffs and heals as normal, not lose the mech on death, and fixed cooldown to properly remove overheat (or have it properly expire on it's own), the class would be very strong and useful without any direct modification to any of the skill effects. Some of the skills would remain useless, but that's ok really, because the class would be playable.

Edited by Doddler, 02 November 2010 - 11:29 AM.

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#14 Kahlev

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:52 PM

Axe Tornado, Axe Boomerang: Should allow the use of maces (if Axe Training already does...)
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#15 Sera

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 10:38 PM

Copying some of Azor's comments from irowiki, these are not my suggestions, but dunno if he even reads these forums, so:
1. Reduce the weight of Fuel.
2. Fix it so that Cannoballs work properly with forced neutral attacks
3. Add a slot to the Flame Launcher shield.
4. Repair A, B, and C items do not seem to be used for anything.
5. There is a Wrench item associated with the class that does not seem to do anything.

Edited by Sera, 02 November 2010 - 10:40 PM.

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#16 Doddler

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 06:26 AM

5. There is a Wrench item associated with the class that does not seem to do anything.


I think the wrench is required for divest FAW.
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#17 Taper

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 12:45 PM

I agree with Sera on the issues she pointed out.

Honestly from the way I see it, with about half of both skill trees being bugged or not working, there's just no way a Mechanic can ever be considered a viable class to play. If the Mado skills are fixed to work properly, and the Axe skills buffed/improved then there'd actually be a good argument for going with either tree as limited skill points basically limits Mechanics to one of two trees available to them.

IMO, Mechanics should be able to use any non-Mechanic skills while wearing the mado suit (HSCR, , weapon upgrade, repairing, vending, AR, WP, PT, and such), because it seriously makes no sense that by equipping a "mount" (yes, Mado suit is a mount, just like Pecos, Griffons, and Ferus) Mechanics cannot use any of their previous class skills while all other mount classes are able to.

Edited by Taper, 03 November 2010 - 12:46 PM.

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#18 Sera

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 01:33 PM

If they let you use non MADO skills, get buffs and heals as normal, not lose the mech on death, and fixed cooldown to properly remove overheat (or have it properly expire on it's own), the class would be very strong and useful without any direct modification to any of the skill effects. Some of the skills would remain useless, but that's ok really, because the class would be playable.


From the viewpoint of the class having two distinct builds, that of mado and that of axe, even if the mado build is fixed like you said, the axe skills still would require a bit of revision imo.

I think there are two distinct builds, through reasoning that Axe Tornado is currently a viable form of leveling, HSCR is a viable skill for killing, and the stat build required to be effective at this is different from that which is required to be effective at using the mado suit.
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#19 jax5

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 08:40 PM

Personally undesirable/annoying as a mechanic:

-1 cell attack range on attacks and numerous skills. Combined with position bugging, this results in frustrating events where attacking/clicking a skill results in no response.
-Mado suit being lost on death and related inconveniences in WoE and PvM instances/groups. Personally, this is the most significant undesired aspect of mado mechanics.
-different buff durations on a relatively great number of active buffs combined with lack of explicit depiction by user interface (though being able to see upon mouse-over is an appreciated improvement).
-Mado accessory prerequisites are numerous and heavy though from a balance perspective, it does provide disadvantage with advantage (the mado skills)


Info on mechanic upgrade weapon rates would be appreciated.

Also, ability to morph in and out of mado at will, I think, would greatly increase the potential types of builds/play styles.
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#20 Iseal

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:43 PM

Boost knuckle is actually 15 sp at lvl 5, even though it says a lot more. 3 sp a lvl!
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#21 Taper

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 07:51 PM

You know, if the Power Swing had a chance to inflict random status (as opposed to just stun), then it could be considred as viable skill. The term "Power Swing" implies a great deal of force behind it, so effects like bleeding, sleeping, confusion, hallucination, coma, and others would make sense as possible after-effects of being on the recieving end.
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#22 Sera

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 07:57 PM

I've said this before, but there are a few problems with Power Swing:

1. It's a stun inflicting skill, smiths already have HSCR and Hammerfall, both of which are arguably better stunning skills.
2. It casts Axe Boomerang, which in turn knocks back the target. Knocking back the enemy is good for the enemy and bad for the mech.
3. It doesn't deal any appreciable amount of damage.
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#23 Kinnay

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 07:58 PM

I agree about the axe skills. They're all horribly underpowered.

I think allowing Axe tornado to be used by mace class weapons would be a nice addition. Considering the attack of weapons like Pile Bunker and Mjolnir (especially considering the wind property of this weapon) it would make the skill more on-par with the other 3rd jobs. The cast delay should be reduced by magic strings also. It's frustrating watching other classes dish out more damage than you because they have strings - but you're just kind of sitting there in the cooldown cart revoing for lack of anything else to do.

Also, as I stated someplace else HSCR should either have a lessened cost or no cost at all for a Mechanic. Before it allowed you to level in high end places so it was very much so worth the money. Now since monsters MUST be within your own level range it's sort of redundant and wasteful.

Edited by Kinnay, 04 November 2010 - 08:00 PM.

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#24 Sera

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:02 PM

Also, just FYI, Pile Bunker gets nerfed in a future update due to it being a level 3 weapon. Level 4 weapons will have a special enchantment NPC that can add bonuses of up to like +12 ATK +1 Str onto them.
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#25 Emichio

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:06 PM

I agree about the axe skills. They're all horribly underpowered.

I think allowing Axe tornado to be used by mace class weapons would be a nice addition. Considering the attack of weapons like Pile Bunker and Mjolnir (especially considering the wind property of this weapon) it would make the skill more on-par with the other 3rd jobs. The cast delay should be reduced by magic strings also. It's frustrating watching other classes dish out more damage than you because they have strings - but you're just kind of sitting there in the cooldown cart revoing for lack of anything else to do.

Also, as I stated someplace else HSCR should either have a lessened cost or no cost at all for a Mechanic. Before it allowed you to level in high end places so it was very much so worth the money. Now since monsters MUST be within your own level range it's sort of redundant and wasteful.


HSCR is useless to level at the moment, thats the good part, also HSCR 1.5k? zeny is quite cheap, the real cost is the SP it consumes

If the skills where usable with Axe and Mace it would be nice +_+.
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