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#26 Akin

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:03 AM

You, sir, are an idiot.


LOL, isn't that the jRO EXP table (up to 150 at least)?
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#27 Wolfen

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:56 AM

like i said the only way i see that with the current mechanics they can make it worthy to party is by removing the exp cap at 16+ levels above you (not exactly remove it, more likely modify it)

and also implement this
* when in a party your "check level for exp" is the average of the partty not your's
* when you fight a monster 16-25 lvls above you, you take double damage, your hit is halved (or the monster flee doubled), same for your flee. but the modifier for the exp goes into 200% of base
* when you fight monsters 26-35 lvls higher, you take triple damage, your hit is 1/3d of its value (or 3 times the monster flee), same for your flee. and the monster gives 3x its normal exp value.
* and so on with this table.

the idea of this is making monsters over you "really way more powerfull and challenging" to a point its imposible to solo them, but with the exp reward theyll yield it will encourage partying to kill them (imagine a 12 man party of 8x-9x trans mobing in jupero with a dificulty lvl of Bio3 pre renewal).

altough i can see this being abused by reflect palys leeching alts (same as how it used to be run bapho instance), but right now we need top rez partying
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#28 RegalPrime

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:52 AM

Would be nice to get exp taps back to what they were ...
A good party pre-renewal could boost their exp quite a bit if they had a few pro exp tappers. I used to Tstorm random peoples mobs so they would get a nice tap bonus, but now I prob steal more exp from the monster doing that than the crappy tap it would give them.
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#29 Emichio

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:39 AM

I don't think the increased tapping should be back, the idea with renewal is that people add exp to the party without having to unnecessarily hit/tank monsters.

I would love to see something like this on-screen party bonus impelemented on top of the current system.

Posted Image

The Total and Per Char are the total party experience and what each character actually gets under the current system.

The Bonus is an increased percent you get based on the shared party members you have on screen at the moment of the kill. ex, a part of two killing a 10000 exp monsters should give each player their 50% ( 5000 ) + this 33.3% Bonus ( 1665 ) for a total of 66.6% ( 6665 ).
The reason is that with the current system a second party member being a killer or a supporter would have to increase the overall performance by 100%, which is not very realistic.. with the bonus you would need to increase the performance by 33% instead of 100% not to be penalized.

The "New" Per Char is the share people will get with the bonus added.

The "New" + and Old + are the expected performance increase a character would have to add to the party in order to not be penalized.

At 8 Characters and up such bonus isnt needed anymore due to base 10% per member increase actually making up for the player adition. as you can see in the "+"s.

Edited by Jaibuu, 04 November 2010 - 08:54 PM.

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#30 Rate

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 06:43 PM

I'd be much happier if everything above you gave 100% until you are ten below, and from then on stay at 140%, or decrease by 5% every 2/3 levels, not going below 100%. Current system is really frustrating if you're playing a class that can't just go everywhere ten above to continue getting a certain rate of exp, in addition to your level raising the amount needed to level again. It's not just slower because you need more, but also because the monster you are killing gives less, which is stupid.

Edited by Rate, 04 November 2010 - 06:45 PM.

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#31 Emichio

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 07:30 PM

I'd be much happier if everything above you gave 100% until you are ten below, and from then on stay at 140%, or decrease by 5% every 2/3 levels, not going below 100%. Current system is really frustrating if you're playing a class that can't just go everywhere ten above to continue getting a certain rate of exp, in addition to your level raising the amount needed to level again. It's not just slower because you need more, but also because the monster you are killing gives less, which is stupid.


The problem with that is easy leeching.
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#32 Mwrip

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:19 PM

I hate leechers too, but they're going to find a way to leech. What's a bigger problem, the fact that leechers exist or the fact that partying has effectively been removed from the game?
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#33 ensignfluke

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:55 PM

I agree with the "make party share 100% exp for each party member" and possibly leave the bonus in as well, most people simply will not party if it means cutting exp in half or more!


Totally agree with this. There needs to be incentive to adding more members, not the other way around. Also it would be lovely if the exp of the higher level monsters was increased, or the hp lowered. What was the point of restricting characters to certain monsters when higher level monsters barely give anymore exp than their lower level friends, yet they have significantly higher hp?
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#34 Rate

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:00 PM

The problem with that is easy leeching.


Solo and partying is different, and leeching has always been easy.

Edited by Rate, 04 November 2010 - 09:01 PM.

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#35 Emichio

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:02 PM

Totally agree with this. There needs to be incentive to adding more members, not the other way around. Also it would be lovely if the exp of the higher level monsters was increased, or the hp lowered. What was the point of restricting characters to certain monsters when higher level monsters barely give anymore exp than their lower level friends, yet they have significantly higher hp?


They have more HP cause players also get skills that do more damage.

Higher level monsters give higher exp that what you are seeing, the monsters you are comparing probably are already so low that the exp they give is heavily penalized compared to the that "barely give anymore exp".
You should not look at the number of the EXP the monster carries, but how much monsters actually give to you, thats the point of the level ranges and modified exp tables.
now the monsters give from 100? to 10k exp or something, instead of 1~100k as it was pre renewal, you have to look at them differently D:


Solo and partying is different, and leeching has always been easy.

WIth easy I meant efficient. so its not efficient anymore.

Edited by Jaibuu, 04 November 2010 - 09:03 PM.

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#36 Heimdallr

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:51 PM

Currently I have a multitude of requests that are already underway to HQ regarding partying. I don't want to promise this, but it is something we are working towards. All that does happen will likely be implemented in stages, rather than an all at once.

1. Improved AI is on the dev platter for 2011. It will make all new areas much spicier. Once it works for new content retrofitting onto older content is easy.
2. Improved party share exp. We are asking for a server side setting for it to tune it from 0-100% per extra person. 50% bonus per person past 2 would mean that a 12 person party would have each person still getting 50% of monster normal solo value. We would not have 50% as our "base" but instead have it as a reserve for a special event. 10% is way too low I think, likely 20-25% bonus would be appropriate, as that would surpass an 'everyone taps" party.
3. Share only happens to characters that are within the distance range (think the range of the quest journals).
4. Here is the big if, and it needs ALOT of thought before handing off to dev team. Each class (basic 6 classes + expanded classes) gets an aura buff that is learned via quest. That aura only works while in distance range of the character, but its buff is unique ahd actually powers up the party in addition to normal buffs. This is so a 12 person diverse party is more powerful than 3 priest and 9 killer party due to the stacking of those buffs. I don't know what the buffs are right now, but less desirable classes should have better buffs to give them their ticket into the parties more.

5. party GUI/recruitment thing. We already put in to get it all prettified, and to have the 'person offering to join a party' other settings like what type of party is a good addition, I didn't think of that due to I know how MVPing is such a trust thing that usually you wouldn't recruit for it, but certainly it is a viable request.

Leveling dynamics are different in Renewal, it is very hard to express how it feels different, and to many more aggravating. But here it goes. The really old school people who leveled up fighting smokies and raydrics in the 2003-2004 era likely will feel this leveling type is crazy fast, because time spent is lower than it was before for those level ranges. But those that are used to having the biggest challenges open to them to tap into the levling super highway like Kasas and Biolabs are not happy as they can't do the crazy rewarding leveling. Trading their past time/equipment and knowledge to make their exp exponentially better. This is sort of intended, but I do believe there should be a greater reward for Risk, but not in the way of giving x monster more xp/drops when you fight it with a lowbie. (tank it and that char is leveling up 3 times faster or something).

What I think would scratch that challenge itch better would be making the "normal" monster version that is as it is now, then a new dungeon content that has an upgraded version of that monster that is "elite" better challenge and reward, higher drop % higher exp. Likely those dungeons would be premium content for dirt cheap, and incluced with Premium subscription. Longer term goal is to do quests in those instances that reward things like quantity goods like stems or something in a stack, or to earn the specified card for that monster rather than relying only on luck to get the rares. This last is a whole update plan, and wouldn't be here in 2010 but is a content update worthy of RO and our players.


If any of you have ideas for what would be interesting aura buffs for base classes please let me know in the thread.
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#37 Sera

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:07 PM

Premium Dungeon would be amazing. That is all.
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#38 Theoretical

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:15 PM

Heim, I was worried for a second. This post here and your other in the Ranger thread make me a happy part of this community :P
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#39 Wanderer

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:47 AM

I like the party aura, you could make it so you get different buffs that could even stack if there's more diversity of classes. Think of a party of 12 people each from different class which is hard to achieve and hence it should have the greatest bonus. You could include various from +HP, +SP, +dmg, +regen, +exp, etc...

If you are thinking of making it exp only you could stack the modifiers for each class like this: the total bonus mod goes as follows Class1*Class2*Class3*... assuming all factors are worth the same a party of lets say:

2 Knights and 2 Priests gets (1+ 0.2*2)*(1+ 0.2*2) = 1.96 = 96% more exp each
1 Knight, 1 Wizard and 2 Priests get (1+ 0.2)*(1+ 0.2)*(1 +0.2*2) = 101% more exp each
2 Knights, 2 Priests, 1 Bard, 1 Dancer, 1 Wizard = 238% more exp each

If you didn't get my formula, think of the party as a weapon and the classes as cards compounded to it, characters of same class would stack additively, characters of different classes would stack as multiplicative so the more diversity there is in the party they get a better bonus.

The maximum bonus with 12 different classes would be 1.2^12 = almost 800%, sure it is a large bonus but it's very difficult to achieve that kind of setup AND to be effective since they would only have 1 priest plus not all the classes are good at all maps so the bonus kinda compensates that, and also I used 20% per party member which you can adjust to whatever you see as fair.
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#40 Clogon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:26 AM

Premium Dungeon would be amazing. That is all.


You will have your wish soon! They are already starting to implement them on kRO!!!

New MVP from cash/premium dungeon
Posted Image

Edited by Clogon, 05 November 2010 - 04:27 AM.

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#41 Kadelia

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:52 AM

Instead of the complicated aura idea and tweaking party share why not make it like
  • Every member in a party beyond the first is +5% EXP
  • Each of the game's classes adds a certain EXP mod to the party, but only the first of each class present counts.
  • Special set bonuses. i.e. "all girls" or "all priests" or "Every different job".
  • All classes must be on screen to provide their bonus.

Class Mods:
Acolyte: +10%
Mage: +10%
Archer: +10%
Thief: +15%
Swordsman: +15%
Merchant: +25%

Priest: +10%
Wizard: +10%
Bard: +10%
Assassin: +20%
Knight: +20%
Crusader: +20%
Monk: +25%
Sage: +25%
Hunter: +25%
Blacksmith: +25%
Alchemist: +30%
Dancer: +30%
Rogue: +30%

Samples:
Acolyte+Thief = 130% EXP
Merchant+Swordsman = 145% EXP

Priest+Wizard = 125% EXP
Priest+Knight = 135% EXP
Priest+Blacksmith = 140% EXP
Monk+Blacksmith = 155% EXP
Dancer+Rogue = 165% EXP

Priest+Wizard+Bard = 140% EXP
Assassin+Monk+Crusader = 175% EXP
Hunter+Sage+Alchemist = 190% EXP

Priest+Wizard+Bard+Crusader = 165% EXP
Blacksmith+Dancer+Rogue+Alchemist = 220% EXP

2 or more people in party
All are the same class: +20% EXP
* * EX: 2 Blacksmith = 150% EXP

All are girls or boys: +10%

1 of every base class in party (acolyte,archer,mage,thief,swordsman,merchant): +20%

Edited by Jaye, 05 November 2010 - 06:42 AM.

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#42 Tolrin

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:18 AM

@Heim: I think the "on screen share range" you mention in point 3 is extremely important. If this were added, it would remove a great deal of the problems (not all but... what can you do) with greatly increasing the amount of exp earned by a group and help to prevent leeching as best as possible, at the very least making it inconvenient. I really like the idea of doing that and increasing the amount earned by a lot at the same time.

The buff auras sounds like an interesting idea, but I would hesitate before making party composition even more difficult than it currently is for PvP. If such buff auras were added, I would highly recommend them only affecting PvM, or perhaps just exp gain.

Edited by Tolrin, 05 November 2010 - 06:19 AM.

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#43 Prodigy

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:32 AM

What I think would scratch that challenge itch better would be making the "normal" monster version that is as it is now, then a new dungeon content that has an upgraded version of that monster that is "elite" better challenge and reward, higher drop % higher exp. Likely those dungeons would be premium content for dirt cheap, and included with Premium subscription. Longer term goal is to do quests in those instances that reward things like quantity goods like stems or something in a stack, or to earn the specified card for that monster rather than relying only on luck to get the rares. This last is a whole update plan, and wouldn't be here in 2010 but is a content update worthy of RO and our players.


What I get from this is similar to WoW Heroics then? Basically, for example, you have a regular dungeon at level 100-110 range with regular mosnters. Then you have a carbon copy of the same dungeon but with higher monster hp/attack/etc but also in the level 100-110 range. The more difficult dungeon would then give more exp than the regular version. I think this would solve part of our problem with fightning stronger monsters that are not so rewarding.

Also Heim, might I suggest more Instanced Leveling Dungeons? From my experience in WoW, leveling in instanced dungeons are fun since you actually get a feel of running through a dungeon instead of running around in circles in the same dungeon. Additionally, you could put a cap to how many people can enter per instance, similar to how Okolnir has a 20 people cap. This way, we can have easy dungeon for parties of 3, moderate dungeons for parties of 6, and hard dungeons for parties of 10~12.
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#44 Clogon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:34 AM

Also Heim, might I suggest more Instanced Leveling Dungeons?


There will be quite a bit of instanced dungeons in the future starting with 14.1.
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#45 Kadelia

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:46 AM

You could also look at my proposal as +EXP "Auras", but it'd be better if they only applied once per class to encourage the variety.
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#46 Wanderer

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:59 AM

Read my previous post since it's basically the same as yours with minor tweaks... yours being not so worth it if there's more of the same class as it would happen in any decent party with multiple priests you are only counting one while I count multiples of the same class just stacking the mods in a different way to promote variety.
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#47 Budro

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:08 AM

I would be happy with just removing the exp nerf on killing lower lvl monsters.
Not everyone has the time to organize a large or even a small party to kill monsters at their lvl.
Why should people be forced to have a party or have a leet build & gears to get 100% of a monsters exp ?
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#48 Akin

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:13 AM

Set bonuses are cool. Kinda reminds me of Suikoden.
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#49 Scott

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:03 AM

Anyway, levelling as a Rogue, I feel sort of... slow. I've heard people copying traps and mass mobbing Hillwinds and the likes, but when I tried it, I just died horribly because of lag. Then I tried to use Intimidate and a bunch of different skills, only to lose them. As a rogue, I've resorted to regular meleeing, and I can barely handle a mob of 3.

Monsters that are even worth levelling on require a substantial amount of hit, to the point where my dagger rogue has more dex than any other stat. I'm also not feeling the worth of flee. I'm screwed if 2 or 3 aggros come up to me while killing stuff, and the only way I could deal with them would be Sightless Mind. Sightless Mind feels useless as an AoE skill as you often get brought out of hiding due to being hit while trying to use the skill repeatedly. It's also very expensive because of this. If you try to hide, but get hit 3 times before successfully hiding, you've wasted 60 SP by the time you've gotten the skill out once. Trying to kill 4-5 enemies who are all attacking you at once can drain all of your SP as a result. It's actually a nice skill if you can manage to land it.

I'm also wondering why it takes to much to level as a second class to 99 (Or maybe it's just Rogues?). It's much faster than before, yes, but it's still pretty slow considering there's a fairly large disparity with second classes and third classes, especially if a player decides to go trans, like most would.

Then there's the obvious party issues. Rogue classes have never been useful in any parties for anything, and I've never seen this change in the years I've played Ragnarok.

I'd love to see Sightless Mind get some sort of buff to make it useful as a skill in a levelling situation. It just fails too much with hide having to be cast first, in my perfect world, it'd be sort of like Meteor Assault, with no reliance on hide (Like that would ever happen). I'd really like to see second classes just become an entirely streamlined process, they're currently just an obstacle until you reach 100.

Edited by Scott, 05 November 2010 - 08:07 AM.

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#50 Kadelia

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:48 AM

Read my previous post since it's basically the same as yours with minor tweaks... yours being not so worth it if there's more of the same class as it would happen in any decent party with multiple priests you are only counting one while I count multiples of the same class just stacking the mods in a different way to promote variety.


Your idea doesn't reward diversity as much and doesn't benefit small parties of odd classes the way it needs to. Also it over-rewards the larger parties. It also rewards parties for stacking up on 'ideal' jobs as opposed to less than ideal ones only marginally less.

I do not feel your system benefits class variety only larger parties (and over-rewards them), and is very different than my suggestion.
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