191 replies to this topic

[Ghost007]

I was wondering about class specific instances, for soloing, as in some map you can only go to that has a 2-3 day cooldown period. Perhaps it has a certain type of monster that adjusts itself according to the level of the player, and gives good exp, or perhaps you have to do a quest within that map.

This can also be done for a partying instance type map.

[Rastaban]

Way back in the days of old, leveling was quantity based. You mobbed, and you destroyed. That's why for quite a while, only Wizards could reliably get parties.

Some time later when high yield monster areas like TT, Thors, and Bio3 were added, focus went to taking down single monsters that gave tons of exp. This made it far easier for more classes to get parties.


With renewal, we've gone back to a quantity based leveling system, but since pretty much every 3rd class has an AoE nuke skill now, the developers must have thought it was ok. It's not. Quantity based leveling encourages mobbing (which violates the Terms of Service) and puts soloers at a disadvantage.

A good system would have numerous soloable monsters that give good exp killed one at a time with no expectation of mobbing a dozen of them and nuking them all at once. But on the same map, there would be very beefy monsters that would be more geared towards party play and would require support and perhaps more than one killer, but would give a ton more exp. A soloer would be able to and should wing away, but a 2-6 person party should be able to kill it.

Take a map like Prison for example. Something like 50 of each prisoner could be the soloable monsters, and give Rybios a huge exp/difficulty boost and toss ~30 of them on there.

Of course I'm just talking about traditional field maps and dungeons. Instances and specialty dungeons like TT/Bio and others should be exceptions to this and focus solely on party play.


I also agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far regarding party bonus exp and I'm really curious as to the reasoning behind the jexp dropoff that Moo highlighted so well in those graphs.

[SamuelAdams]

Btw, at least adding after the name in brackets (Lv. XXX) of the monster would help. ^^
Especially since EVERYTHING is based on level differences now, and there are few ways to know what level things are in game.

[Akin]

^ the best way is ctrl+~ and then "tab".

But that's not very intuitive.

[Pepperoncini]

It would not take that much effort to ramp up the difficulty of some mobs and do the same for their exp. Look at Anubis for example. They are hard to hit, hard to flee, and do several times more damage than other mobs at that level. However they give less than twice the experience and are extremely thin (15 in one map) compared to other mobs in that range. In the time it takes to find and kill 10 Anubis, someone could easily kill 40-60 roweens, hillwinds, kobolds, desert wolves, anolians, etc.... It should only make sense that anubis would give 6x+ the experience of those monsters instead of 1.5x.

That's the kind of stuff we need. A map with a thin spawn of a difficult monster that gives a significant amount of experience. That way, you get the correct reward for your risk. And if the spawn is relatively thin, 3rd class character won't be able to mob them up and 1 shot them effectively (and I'm guessing that's the reason why the exp charts are as bad as they are).

Leveling from novice to base 99 trans is perfect right now for soloing. Most everyone can agree that party-play sucks though and getting to job 70 is more tedious than it needs to be.

Another solution is even simpler; it's all in the math. Party bonus needs to be ramped up, monsters in the 80-115 range need a Jexp boost, and monsters 115+ need to be harder and give significantly more exp. I don't think we really need a 3 month period where we brainstorm for creative ideas to fix the leveling/party system, they simply need a buff.

[Hrishi]

Why was MvP experience nerfed on iRO?Can it not be taken back to kRO values? What was the need for such a nerf?

[Talvis]

Why was MvP experience nerfed on iRO?Can it not be taken back to kRO values? What was the need for such a nerf?

Because the top tier guilds will abuse the hell out of it if they were and they would make it impossible for anyone else to even try to hunt mvps.

[CyFire]

The system as it is now dosnt account for level differences. I had a level 107 partying with a level 109 who wanted to go to rachel. The problem here is that he was just in the level limit range while I was not. He got great exp there while I got crap. With only two levels difference between us it grossly narrowed our choices of maps we could use.

As I see it the worst part about partying is the monster level restrictions. If they were the only thing to go partying would be easier for me at least. Although some of the other suggestions here do warrant looking into.

[Realus]

The main things I'd like to see leveling wise would be:

---

1) Increase Job Experience given per monster, or rework the Job Experience Table.
I'm tired of level 99/68, and grinding for my last two job levels as a 99.
And I hear people going 150/47. And that would be a similar circumstance.

I think Pre-Trans was very good. Usually 80~85/50. That way you can comfortably get to 90/50, and enjoy your character being complete.
Then if you wanted to be competitive in WoE/MVP, you'd want to grind out your last levels to reach 99 to get the most out of your character.

I say we need to find an experience balance where we could hit 85/50 (Non Trans), 95/70 (Trans/Expanded), and maybe 145/50 (Third).
Granted, we don't level in an area with horrible Base/Job Ratio. Like pre-renewal Odin Temple or Abyss Lake.

---

2) Experience penalties.

I'm fine with them in the game, but I think it should scale down, instead of a sudden cut off.

Instead of just 16+ Level LOWER = 40% Exp, probably make it like this:

Player level is 16 levels LOWER = 100%
Player level is 17 levels LOWER = 90%
Player level is 18 levels LOWER = 80%
Player level is 19 levels LOWER = 70%
Player level is 20 levels LOWER = 60%
Player level is 21 levels LOWER = 50%
Player level is 22 levels LOWER = 40%
Player level is 23 levels LOWER = 30%
Player level is 24 levels LOWER = 20%
Player level is 25+ levels LOWER = 10%

And for being higher level then normal:
Player level is 6 - 10 levels higher = 95% (Unchanged)
Player level is 11 - 15 levels higher = 90% (Unchanged)
Player level is 16 - 20 levels higher = 85% (Unchanged)
Player level is 21 - 25 levels higher = 60% (Unchanged)
Player level is 26 levels higher = 50%
Player level is 27 levels higher = 40%
Player level is 28 levels higher = 30%
Player level is 29 levels higher = 20%
Player level is 30+ levels higher = 10%

It's quite odd that you are getting completely useless experience one level.
And then you level once to get into the 15 level range, and your magically getting 3x as much experience.

If the penalties are too small, maybe make them 15% or 20% increments instead of 10%.
(*Watches as people bash my idea because I have the range extending down to 10% Experience*)

---

3) Leeching

Simple as suggested before. Make it require people who are in screen to get experience.
That's the only thing needed here IIRC.

But to add a little more, Perhaps somehow penalize AFK actions or something as well.
Because if we find situations like Pre-RE-Bio3-Wiz Spawns, I'm sure people wouldn't mind leeching on-screen for this.

Penalizing afk would hurt AFKemists though... although do we really mind? I'm sure Homunculus weren't designed with that reason in mind.
(I don't even know why I see people leeching in Renewal this way. Don't you Biochem's want job levels?)

---

4) Party Share

It's too much of a penalty to share with people. Unless you know everyone can pull their own weight as much as you can, they're just eating up experience that you could have just gotten on each take.

Possibly, we can have up to 3x Modifiers for being in a party.

Share Experience Rate: 20% Per additional member in party (+220% for a 12 person party)
Share Experience Rate (Event Mode): +100% Share efficiency. Meaning, 40% Per additional member in party. (+440% for a 12 person party)
Experience Tap: +10% Per additional member in party who taps the monster (+110% for all 12)
Party Diversity Bonus: +25% per additional class in party. (+250% for 12 Unique classes)
(Note: All bonus are only active when party share is on)
(Note2: Actual numbers up for change)

By class diversity bonus, I'm proposing:
Regular Novices get no bonus experience for partying with any other class.
Regular Novices however get "Diversity" bonus with other novice classes. Perhaps even a higher bonus then regular as well, to encourage novices to help each other out. (+50% or more? Idk, your not novice for long anyway)

Aco/Mage/Archer/Thief/Merchant/Swordsman don't get bonus for partying with Novice, or 2nd Classes. They may party with other 1st classes, or the expanded classes for bonus experience. (If desired, increase this diversity bonus [50%?] to encourage low level party play)

Super Novice, Taekwon Boy, Taekwon Master, Soul Linker, Gunslinger, and Ninja are all counted as 6 seperate classes, thus are "Diverse" and get bonus. (No higher bonus like Novice/1st class, because they go to 99 as this class, unlike the others which job change.)

2-1 / Trans 2-1 and 3-1 are counted as the same, thus is not "Diverse" (No bonus) if in the same tree (Knight = Lord Knight = Rune Knight =/= Priest)
2-2 / Trans 2-2 and 3-2 are counted as the same, thus is not "Diverse" (No bonus) if in the same tree (Monk = Champion = Shura =/= Shadow Chaser)

------------

Examples of combining the above:

Example 1:
(x1.0) Solo, with or Without Event = 100% Each

Example 2:
(x1.2) 2 Person Duo (Tank + Killer) [x1.4 with Event]
(x1.25) 2 Seperate Classes (1 Diversity)
(x1.1) 1 Experience Tapper
165.5 / 2 = 82.5% Each
[192.5 / 2 = 96.2% Each with Event]

Example 3:
(x1.6) 4 Person Party (Tank + Heal + Kill + Strings) [x2.2 With Event]
(x1.75) 4 Seperate Classes (3 Diverse)
(x1.1) 1 Experience Tapper (Tank Tanks, Killer Kills. Heal/Strings doesn't help)
308% / 4 = 77% Each
[423.5% / 4 = 105.8% Each with Event]

Example 4:
(x3.2) 12 Person Party (Endless Tower? IDK) [x6.4 with Event]
(x3.5) 12 Seperate Classes (11 Diverse)
(x2.1) 11 Experience Taps (Idk!!)
2352% / 12 = 196% Each
[4704% / 12 = 392% Each]


Okay... maybe experience gets a bit too high if you run a party full of diverse classes who all do work...

Or would that actually be okay? It's only level 2x faster then solo if your in that party. And getting 12 different classes together, in the same party, on the same screen, all actively participating in battle... Isn't that what MMO's are about?

An event boosts it to lol amounts... but it really would encourage playing during those event times. (And more important, partying)
And I'd see an increase in BM Sales during those events.

Although, I'd say have Mental Sensing / TKM Blessing skills not stack multiplicatively in this case. Experience would get too exponential in that case.
As sexy as 700%+ per person with Example 4 during the event with Sensing would be, I don't think so.

And of course, don't apply this system to MVPs. We don't need a 12 man party fully setting up on an MVP that gives 2mil exp, and end up giving the entire 12 person party 30mil exp each.

Maybe I weighted the Exp values badly (Maybe Tap should be worth the most, as it is the hardest to achieve), but I was trying to get a way that you don't get penalized too harshly (100% -> 50% -> 36%... QQ)
But also so it doesn't get too extreme at points. (And with all variables maxing out to 392% per member... yeah I think I didn't achieve that.

While making a final point to make bigger parties more beneficial (With Heim's Idea of Class bonus, I made that into the Diversity Bonus).
Just applying a bigger bonus to Parties alone (25% instead of 10%) would pretty much leave 4 party ranges.
Example with Current Mechanics:
Solo (100%), Duo (50%), 3~6 (25~35%), 7~12 (15~20%)

I'd rather just go out and solo my experience currently, when it's funner to go out with a simple 3 person party or so. But if I'm trying to get some levels, I don't really want to run around at 35% Experience.
Also, I never Battle Manual when Duo-ing either, because it just simply isn't worth it to me. (With the exception of my Arch Bishop)
We really need parties to not be a harmful to experience. (I know, broken record)

I'm just no good at figuring out a formula that would be instantly fair, so my values up top are probably free to change.
And perhaps if numbers get a point that look good, but there's still too much experience being distributed... Put a Cap on it?
Make it so in a share party, the most experience you can get is 200% total. So if your doing everything like my final example in the Event Mode. You'd only get 200% instead of 392%

-----------

Ugh, that's too long of a text box... Does Warp Portal have hide boxes like iWiki?

[Frappuccino]

it'd be nice if heim came in here and made some comments on ideas he likes/dislikes etc

[Hrishi]

Because the top tier guilds will abuse the hell out of it if they were and they would make it impossible for anyone else to even try to hunt mvps.

And it's different to the current situation how? Nerfing MvP experience isn't going to make top tier guilds stop hunting them. They are in it for the zeny anyway, not EXP.

[Hacks]

there is a serious problem with job exp on monsters +/- 99. as it is now, you hit 99 at about job 66 or 67 on trans characters. monsters in this range give less job exp vs base exp than monsters 20 levels lower. the grind at 99 is a serious problem as it effectivly kills the leveling curve. you are STUCK at 99, you cannot level beyond until you go third. by the time i get job 70 on my character, i will have somewhere around 25M base exp collected that goes to nothing. not to mention this puts me in the same map for an extended period of time. as it is now, i've been in magmarings over a week and a half and i have an estimated 3.5k more magmarings to get to 70. while i understand there are a few (like 2) better monsters to kill for job exp, the risk involved is more than i'd like to risk at a 3% death penalty. i shouldnt have to sit on the same map for a month.

[eerie]

1) Experience needs to be permanently increased for each server OR Monster Exp needs adapted &/OR Exp charts re-checked.
2) Partying should give bonus exp for each member within the party.
3) Mercenaries will need stats adapted for Renewal mechanics & leveling.
4) The return of Req exp quest & a expansion of that for higher levels. It not only was helpful pre-renewal, but those that enjoyed it wish to see it reimplemented.
5) More options for low level classes. (Example: The split in levels with monsters combined with FS Aco Heal bombing as a primary source of leveling.) Since there are some classes/builds with special needs.
6) Resolve the lack of a database by implementing it in game or having the resource on the Ragnarok website? (GM or Fan, I don't care who does it.. But it needs done.) /swt
7) Booking could use a update: Drop down dialog for say, Warlock N>High Priest, Arch Bishop? Booking is generic in its current form. It needs defined/refined more so that information is more specific. Maybe something more similar to a bbs/classified ad. Or even allow "notes" with a max character capacity. So we can simply insert/add information.

[Pururu]

Extra base you get when you're 99/68 will still count for when you hit third job, so basically you will probably instanly be level 100 and close to 101 after killing one mob, it's not really a problem. Even if it's still kinda stupid you don't get your skills before your final stats.

Regarding leveling there's two thing which bother me:

1) Leveling if you don't like/want mobbing, or can't do it decently is awefully bad (i'm leveling with knuckle arrow atm, it's horrible don't even try it unless your an hardcore grinder). Some maps should have strong mobs which actually would make killing them one by one as good exp wise than mobbing.
2) Job table or monster job exp should be completly changed in my opinion, job should be available alot faster since skills are actually what would make you want to play and grind brainless monster not slightly more hp/aspd/sp, and you should be max job BEFORE being max base not the contrary.

Also i know alot of people like to grind for years to get a max level character, but i honestly don't see the fun in it especially when the monsters are totally unchallenging (except bio3), this is even more true than before, at level 113 i can already solo morroc incarnations no problem with ka it's laughable. Monster should be slightly more powerfull and exp in general slightly higher.

Edited by Pururu, 10 November 2010 - 06:09 AM.

[mooMOOmoo]

For my level 105 arch bishop, job leveling at Noxious map (ein_fild05, level 87) using crappy little Judex

is almost twice as fast as

Niffihelm fields (level 100-110) with ME
or Raydric map (level 115) (gl_knt02) with linked holy light,

and base exp wises about 75% the speed of the 2 higher level maps.

Edited by mooMOOmoo, 10 November 2010 - 01:06 PM.

[Pepperoncini]

I'm hoping the GMs don't just increase the server exp or add a flat "bonus" to the current rates. We need specific mobs to be buffed.
For example, there is no reason a galion should give less experience than a roween. Nor should Phendarks give less experience than dark priests.

If they were to do a sweeping exp buff, I think the best way to go about it would be to break up the monsters by level. Something like:
1-80 = 1.0x
81-100 = 1.3x
101-120 = 1.6x
121-150 = 1.9x

[Hacks]

@Pepperoncini

+1 to this, the ranges seem about right there. no problem 1-80, moves at a good clip there. 80-100 doesnt need as much a boost as 101-120 so this looks good here, dunno about 121+ as i'm not there yet

[Evionne]

I like the extending the level range before exp gets nerfed idea. 30 levels above, 15 levels below sounds much more fair, and lets parties have wider places to level. The diversity exp boost is a neat idea, too.

I had an idea, but I forgot it when reading everyone else's.... Oh right, remembered.

Monsters are leveled specifically to their map, unless they're just "pest" monsters. Like, no level 66 Grizzlies in Magma 1, they're there to make it harder, they're just there currently to make it so your exp log randomly shows less numbers. Put them in range with everything else.

Some maps are strange to level on, because only half the monsters are in your range.... I had a few specific maps, but I don't remember what they are anymore... But, map specific monster levels would make it slightly easier to level, since everything would be in range, or near it.

[Axylus]

My observations from playing my archbishop on Valkyrie:

• Most players with third job characters are playing solo and gaining multiple levels per hour.
• I'm lucky to gain at least one base or job level per 2 hours in a party, even while using battle manuals.
• I have no motivation to play my archbishop anymore because the effort isn't worth the reward.

I think the follow changes should be made to the party system:

• Players always receive at least 75% of each killed monster's experience. Players will continue to avoid parties if they receive any less. (Consider that before Renewal, each party member received more than 100% of each monster's experience for completing monster hunting quests.)
• Shared experience is only distributed to players within visible distance of killed monsters. To accommodate pullers, party members who leave the party's vicinity will continue to receive shared experience for 3 minutes.

Edited by richard, 12 February 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[Akin]

To accommodate pullers, party members who leave the party's vicinity will continue to receive shared experience for 3 minutes.

That's a good solution to that dilemma.

[Pred]

I know it's been said already, but just reiterating how I feel about the issue of leveling.

It's too easy. I feel like the game becomes tailor made for someone who stays away from challenges and risks. The exp rates are fine, exp/h when grinding i'd say is really nice, but it's the act of grinding itself, and what happens with it. It's so damn simple and not at all entertaining. Renewal's leveling system may work great in an asian culture, but between talks with my guild and other friends that play the game, the leveling system was simply not made with western players in mind. Leveling has become the same thing over and over again, it maybe different monsters, on different maps, but the core tactics are the exact same thing, over and over and over and over.

This has been my biggest issue with RO since day 1. I started playing when a friend introduced me, and hated leveling from the get-go. It took me years to get my first 99 (my sin off of hydro farming), because of how boring.

Updating the AI, as Heimdallr said back on page 2 is already in the works, would be a huge plus to this. Monster AIs are so damned stupid, it's pathetic. "See Target, Chase Target, Kill Target, Cast skills by chance under known conditions". The number one update with renewal that I was really looking forward to, was the enhanced AI of monsters. I want a challenge from my time leveling, right now it's about as stimulating as watching paint dry. It's not a game to level right now, it's not fun, it's boring busy work that needs to be done to participate effectively in other more enjoyable aspects of the game. It's a chore.

I play this game to find and face challenges, that's why I haven't been bitching about the current WoE scene. Instead of complaining about skills be OP, I've looked for workarounds to defend against them. Instead of complaining about insur dominating WoE, I've been using the battles (if you can really call them that at the moment, lol) against them to learn strategies for my own guild to use once we get to that level. The classes I don't know I pay attention to to help teach others what works. WoE is a challenge in that aspect, you're constantly learning and having to out think your opponent, there's strategy involved. Leveling?.... not at all.

I had some ideas for AIs awhile back that might make things more interesting.


1.) Have monsters be aware of their surroundings. If they're just being kited halfway across the map, then they should coordinate with the other monsters and cast skills on the puller. Or simply stop following the puller and go into retreat mode. Instead of just doing /swt2 and going non-agro for a bit. Have the AI's change their tactics if they detect you're in a SW or Pnuema, have melee monsters "kite" melee classes that are targeting them around ranged killers, or charge ranged classes to close the distance and fight.



2.) Have non-agro monsters group up. If a monster's low on health, it shouldn't continue to blindly attack, show some smarts. If a player hovers over a monster and it's name is in red, that's a signal for the player to back up, monsters should have something similar, if the AI detects that it's about to get it's ass beat, have it retreat instead of charging in. Have them stick to groups of monsters to make it harder to kill, while still allowing for AoE grinding, if you can kill them before they get to you.



3.) Vary the monsters per map, and change what skills the monsters do. There should be more buffing of monsters, and the buffs should make a difference. Things like how a sleeper uses Defender, or other such skills should be cast by more monsters that it makes sense for. Varying the monsters per map may require a tweaking of the exp rate system. I get the feeling the system is in place so that you can't just leech someone to 99 from lvl 60 anymore, but really, who cares?



4.) More skills! More monster specific skills should be implemented that makes leveling take more thought. For example, how about a skill for monsters that make them give more exp and do more damage, but they only cast it when the monster AI thinks it's going to win, kind of like a berserk mode. Maybe some monsters cast it when they're part of a group of monsters attacking, because they feel they have strength in numbers. However if the multiple monster idea is used, make them hard to pull together to avoid exploiting it giving them areas they stick to. Another idea for this would be to go into this berserk mode if the person their attacking is spamming pots, or getting healed repeatedly and not at full health, as if the monster detects that the person has to out pot it's damage and tries harder to kill you.



5.) Quest based AIs.... Dunno if this possible at all, but maybe implement some leveling quests that change monster's AI towards you. For instance, let's say a quest to kill 1,000 High Orcs. Once you complete the quest, you become "infamous" with them, and High Orcs get their AI upgraded against you, but give more exp. They start retreating and attacking in groups, and use Orc Archers for support while attacking, while casting different skills that tilt the battle more in their favor for more of a challenge.



tl;dr - Monsters walk up to you as if they want to die, there's no challenge/fun in killing things that want to die. Make these monsters fight for their lives, instead of offering us their asses on a silver platter for us to rape, pillage, and slaughter.

[Bahlum]

tl;dr - Monsters walk up to you as if they want to die, there's no challenge/fun in killing things that want to die. Make these monsters fight for their lives, instead of offering us their asses on a silver platter for us to rape, pillage, and slaughter.

Well said.

[Wanderer]

Ok we can all come up with all kinds of complex formulas for paty bonuses but some of those could require a lot of time to be implemented. What we need now is a short term solution as simple as changing one value without the devs having to surf trough the code to implement a complex bonus exp formula based on different party setups like some of us have proposed.

What I suggest as an EASY TEMPORARY solution is to just increase party bonus per member from 10% to 25%, I don't think that's too much work for the gms so please do it ASAP so partying in large groups is actually worth it!

[Brindizer]

I would like to see a logical follow-through of game and its world.
A level 1 Novice is kicked into the game. Training Grounds tells you how to play the game, but why? What is the motivation to explore Rune-Midgarts?

So the player enjoys the game simply because it's the game and at some point gets bored and questions again, "Why?" The player is about level 60 or so by now.

How about send him to Einbroch. Einbroch has myriad quests to do that educate the player about what's going on and what has happened here. The Einbroch series of quests and killing those monsters ends him at about 80.
So at level 80 that person could pursue quests in another town, and so on. Not only will this provide incentive to get the quests done as they progress you, but the story quests should at least grant a base level for whatever its pre-requisite is.

[FatherBob]

*Here's my two cents I posted earlier, reposting here as it was suggested to me*

I've been playing this game for 7 years now, and it's gotten annoying that the party system has not been updated yet to not SUCK so much.

While the new leveling system is annoying to figure out, it's become apparent to me that it's still quicker leveling when you're solo than in a party. If I wanted to play a solo game, I'd waste my time on a console RPG.

GMs, seriously, change the party EXP system to make it worth our time to level in a party. Get us out of the same old standard party crap has minimum people and make it worthwhile to have max size parties REGARDLESS of what is being killed. This whole system of (EXP) = (Monster EXP) / (Party Size) needs to go.

The EXP sharing system should be something like (EXP) = (Monster EXP) * (1+ ((Party Size)/12) + (modifiers)

Using a formula like that would greatly encourage players with all classes to band together while leveling, and will lead to a better all around experience.