42 replies to this topic

[HikariKouka]

Now you talking about 10 seconds root and AoE effect. Yea I think 10 seconds are too much but what about 5s and only 1 target  It's acceptable I think.

I know April 23rd patch will help us regain what we've lost since AoV came   And I think most our skills are ok for now if they are fix except Curst Burst, Mayhem & Stigma Mastery 

What you guys think about change Crecentia's mechanic? I mean instead of add Stigma debuff on target but we gain Stigma debuff every attack and consume it like other classes 

[Lanie]

Not even sure what you think is wrong with Curse Burst, considering in my case it's my most efficient attack. (I say this as one of the few people you will find with only level 1 Furn and level 1 Crucio, even level 1 Contigency, until Master Level Skill points were gained.) I actually like Stigma Mastery too. Mayhem.. I've offered some ideas on how to fix things (and I still say Imp should be Vigor, not either Cast Speed nor Haste). I think the fundamental idea of making Mayhem affect only one target (thus letting it work 100%) should be valid enough, and having it apply on the "Next Enemy that hits you" after using Imp might do well for getting it done. After that, you just have each level cause the silence duration reaction effect be 2/4/6s long (and if Imp is vs Vigor, your gold).

I honestly like how Stigma works right now too, but that might be part of how come I love my CB. Sure, its not as efficient in PvP, but it is really nice. If you wanted Stigma + PvP efficiency, make it so that an enemy that kills someone with Stigma charges is "Infected" by their Stigma (aka, auto threading). This way, a Crescentia would just needs to get their stigma out there, and Curse Burst would tear people apart. The only flaw with this is that high kill rate players would be most likely to amass the Stigma in this design, and so in addition to being worth the most points, they would also become considerably vulnerable to a well placed Tempest. That might be almost TOO OP.

[HikariKouka]

Curst Burst's damage is too low   They need new scale for this skill.

I want to change Stigma's mechanic because it will make we use our skills set more smothly and faster. About Stigma Mastery, make it increase crit rate for each Stigma Consume when u use Curst Burst & Tempest

I forgot 1 skill that is Stigma Thread, why not make it immediately generate 5 Stigma Debuff (60 sec cooldown).

 

Then we will get something like this as our chain skill: Diem Wind x3 - Illusion Blade - Curst Burst (Tempest) or Stigma Threas - Tempest - Diem Wind x3 - Illusion Blade - Curst Burst

I don't really get what Stigma can do    What purpose for us to add Stigma on target except for increase Curst Burst & Tempest's damage? That why I think Stigma should work like Thief's Combo point 

Edited by HikariKouka, 11 April 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[Lanie]

I have no idea how a 10k spamable AoE skill is considered low damage... You should be able to get out 9 hits of Cursed Burst over a 10 second window before having to fix things up. And it's not like waiting 5-6 seconds (at minimum) to set things up again is a big deal either. Overall, that means 90k damage over a 15 second window, every 15 seconds. Sure, got a few other things to often get in the way of rushing this, but a 20 second window isn't unreasonable. If you want this in a DPS value, that's 4.5kdps over 10 targets, or a maximum value of 45kdps AoE. If you think that's low, I worry what kind of damage you wish for.

Consume Stigma? Nothing consumes stigma, it just wears off overtime. A target with 5 stigma getting hit with CB or Tempest or LoD will still have 5 stigma. This is also why Stigma Thread is totally awesome, especially for people who enjoy CB and LoD. Even using BG, I find ST has it's place in an AoE rush (especially if you want to capitalize on CB).

My combo while grinding: LoD, BG x4, LoD, BG, ST, CB x9. That destroys a whole mob of 10, it will actually be dead before you finish. If you have more than 10, use ST before the cooldown expires (while some things are dead already) to thread it further. If you mess up, start the combo over. That combo takes about 20s to complete, and does over 150k damage to each mob (7.5kdps over 10, or 75kdps total) in the group of 10.. which equates to 1500k damage collectively, or 1.5 million, over 20 seconds. Once again... not sure where this isn't considered "good enough".

[HikariKouka]

I have no idea how a 10k spamable AoE skill is considered low damage... You should be able to get out 9 hits of Cursed Burst over a 10 second window before having to fix things up. And it's not like waiting 5-6 seconds (at minimum) to set things up again is a big deal either. Overall, that means 90k damage over a 15 second window, every 15 seconds. Sure, got a few other things to often get in the way of rushing this, but a 20 second window isn't unreasonable. If you want this in a DPS value, that's 4.5kdps over 10 targets, or a maximum value of 45kdps AoE. If you think that's low, I worry what kind of damage you wish for.

Consume Stigma? Nothing consumes stigma, it just wears off overtime. A target with 5 stigma getting hit with CB or Tempest or LoD will still have 5 stigma. This is also why Stigma Thread is totally awesome, especially for people who enjoy CB and LoD. Even using BG, I find ST has it's place in an AoE rush (especially if you want to capitalize on CB).

My combo while grinding: LoD, BG x4, LoD, BG, ST, CB x9. That destroys a whole mob of 10, it will actually be dead before you finish. If you have more than 10, use ST before the cooldown expires (while some things are dead already) to thread it further. If you mess up, start the combo over. That combo takes about 20s to complete, and does over 150k damage to each mob (7.5kdps over 10, or 75kdps total) in the group of 10.. which equates to 1500k damage collectively, or 1.5 million, over 20 seconds. Once again... not sure where this isn't considered "good enough".

 

Can you show your proof that ur Curst Burst deal 10k every second   Because in my case CB's damage is very low (around 3k as normal & 6k if crit)

And your 45k damage AoE is not enough    My Mermaid hit like 9k at least and dot for 4k per sec (18k if crit and more in awake) or my Vador hit like 10k every 3 sec (20k if crit and more in awake)    My pet cd is around 15s which mean I got extra 15 sec for double vador or mermaid 

My LoD hit like 2k5 (5k if crit) every 1 sec and my cd is 6s so I got extra 4s to double LoD's damage 

 

If I use mermaid then: (4k + 2.5k) x10 = 65k damage over 10 targets in 1 sec (not count crit, mermaid's normal attack, extra 15 sec when 2 mermaids on the field, extra 4 sec when 2 LoD are active)

 

If I use vador : (10k x 6/3 + 2.5k) x10 = 225k damage over 10 targets in 1 sec for 20 sec duration or (10k x 10/3 + 2.5k)x10 = 358k damage over 10 targets in 1 sec for 30 sec duration. (not count crit, vador's normal attack, 15 sec when 2 vadors on the field, extra 4 sec when 2 LoD are active)

 

I don't see any benefit from the chain of skills Lod, BG X4, LoD, BG, ST, CBx9 that you're using   Why press so many buttons just for grinding   I only need 2 buttons for normal grind (LoD + Vador/Mermaid) and mobs die in 3 or 4 sec 

I got this result while farming at Fallen Fortress. If you want I can make another while doing Mummy in Osiris Temple.

 

In my mind, I never think PvE or grind is a problem   That why I didn't see any benefit from Curst Burst, Stigma Mastery, Stigma Thread, Stigma Debuff and think gravity should revamp them for more effective in PvP. Why not choose the shortest & more effective way? Why make everything complicated with your chain skills?

Edited by HikariKouka, 11 April 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[Greven79]

@ Lanie: Your answers are by far the best and well-thoughted comments I've seen so far. Kudos!

[Lanie]

@ Lanie: Your answers are by far the best and well-thoughted comments I've seen so far. Kudos!

Thank you Greven.

Regarding HikariKouka's post, I actually had this discussion earlier on the value of both CB and LoD, I really don't want to go through it again (you can look it up if you want). However, yes, Stigmas do have less value in PvP, I will give you that. I think I recommended having Stigmas infect the enemy who kills them as a solution for this problem (so that any non-crescentia killing someone in PvP gains all the target's stigmas in a manner similar to how Stigma Thread works), though I didn't put much thought into that idea really either. I still honestly really like the debuff-scoring system they use though, and would hate it to change into 'the same system overused all over the other classes'. Obviously, this, like your own, is just an opinion. Just like, in my case, I hate the boredom of using a small selection of skills (I soooo feel sorry for Rogues, I mean it you guys, I REALLY do). It's also why the only pets that have ever interested me are the healing ones. But you're free to do it your way too, if that's what you want.

Big point overall, Stigma Debuffs are awesome as debuffs, even if we do decide to change how they debuff or something. I'll accept they need to be improved in PvP, but not in PvE, so whatever done to them should make them work the same in PvE. Stigma Thread and Mastery both fit the same idea really. Curse Burst... needs nothing... period. If you make it too easy to Stigma things, Curse Burst will shred things apart even without changing anything, so the last thing Curse Burst needs is a buff. It's already really nice in PvE (and if PvE gets harder, such as a new Raid, then CB is going to get much future spam), and if Stigmas were made just as easy to sustain in PvP somehow, then CB will do just as well in PvP (which would really be vicious, thinking about it).

However, still... most of this is me repeating myself either from earlier in this topic, or even from other topics.. So I think I'm going to wait for the opinion of someone new before worrying about further details on this.

[lonelyx20]

 

However, still... most of this is me repeating myself either from earlier in this topic, or even from other topics.. So I think I'm going to wait for the opinion of someone new before worrying about further details on this.

 

I'll pass, gonna wait for the upcoming revamp on our skills. 

 

Curst Burst's damage is too low   They need new scale for this skill.

 

On the contrary

 

Spoiler

 

to those who can't see, curse burst damage is 9854 crit, using a joser scythe and i'm pretty undergeared (before I realized that).

Edited by lonelyx20, 13 April 2014 - 06:24 AM.

[HikariKouka]

^ But 9k8 damage with crit on low level mob like that huge peco ._. I still think CB need a buff

[Lanie]

So finally getting around to it, I've applied the Current Damage Formula to my own stats, to determine what kind of damage a 100% magic skill would do compared to a 100% physical skill. The observed difference is actually only 35% less physical damage than magical power. But stupid enough, multiplying strength by 2 (which makes my str and int close to the same value) reduced the difference only to 33%. So yes, the formula is a disaster. It isn't possible to have stats/gear which give more physical damage than magical damage, unless we had like 10 times more strength than we did intelligence. This means Crescentia Melee Attacks will always only do 2/3rds the damage of their Ranged Attacks, if you take equal skill damage into account.

Thus, with the current formula, the only way to account for this is to adjust skill percentages accordingly. A 150% Physical Attack Skill does almost as much damage as a 100% Magical Attack Skill for a player with equal amounts of Strength and Intelligence. Since all Melee Crescentia Skills are Physical, they should probably all be balanced with this offset (or there is always changing the current formula). For determining skill damage power of any particular skill compared to another skill, this offset should also be kept in mind if the damage type isn't the same for both skills.

For example: Crucio vs Contingency (Using RO2Base because in game no longer actually shows skill values)
Listed Skill Power: Crucio (5) - 275 / (10) - 385, Contingency (5) - 24%

People might estimate that Contingency is missing a 0 at the end of it, for 240% damage (I don't recall this personally, I think it's an error of RO2Base...). However, if this was done, Crucio (5) would do twice the damage per hit of Contingency (5). If the goal was to have the on-hit value of both skills to be equal, Contingency would need to do around 420% damage. Considering Contingency's Cooldown compared to Crucio, it's safe to assume that the on-hit damage of Contingency is intended to actually be higher than Crucio, so that would mean Contingency would need even more than 420% to achieve this.

In turn, while increasing physical damage does achieve this goal, so does reducing magical damage. The equivalent conversion rate however would still apply. This is where it's also important to remember that Bram Gush is actually a physical attack too (that description really needs to be fixed...), so that people remember how the above treats it (It's not actually way higher in damage compared to Illusion Blade or Diem Wind, instead it's about on par).

[HikariKouka]

Yes I agree with you that PATK formula is totally broken (For Crecentia) since AoV came. I didn't joined any raid after AoV so I sorry for what I've said about INT type crecentia. After read this I go and checked it myself, here is my result:

 

Lv 5 Diem Wind (200% scale with PATK) vs Lv 5 Crucio (275% scale with MATK). Only 75% different but

 

 

Crucio deal double the amount of damages that Diem Wind can deal 

 

Lv 5 Tempest (1000% scale with PATK) vs Lv 3 Death Grip (1050% scale with MATK)

 

 

Death Grip almost triple Tempest 

 

I really think gravity should do something about this! Atleast they need to raise the % scale with PATK for Crecentia's melee skills if they want to keep this formula.

 

 

[Lanie]

Most people seem to think that this issue is because our Str is half our Int, but according the the formula they gave, that won't fix this problem (a 2% increase in damage will change hardly anything at all). Our only hope is to get like a x1.5 multiplier on the skill damage for all our melee skills. The patch for April 23rd is already slated to correct the difference between Int and Str, but not this multiplier. This makes it clear they don't even understand their own formula...

If they wanted to be lazy, they could also always just say that Ignition gives Physical Attacks a x1.5 damage bonus too. That would also solve the problem, and leave us looking at numbers which should look far more equal (The Magic Attack stat in our profiles though will still be much higher than our Physical Attack stat, but having that Physical Multiplier on Ignition would at least explain that).

Actually, yes, after saying that, I think the best solution for this would be to Apply a Physical Attack Multiplier to Ignition, to increase our Physical capacity to be on par with our Magical capacity. This way, at the very least, we can look at numbers we can easily compare without conversions.

Edited by Lanie, 13 April 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[HikariKouka]

In next patch they will balance STR & INT which mean they will increase PATK & decrease MATK. This gonna be a nerf for crecentia again, not balance anything at all if they keep using this formula. I hope our VCR will notice and report this.

Well now I think there are 3 solutions for this problem:

- Increase % scale of all PATK based skills (Double it)

- Revamp Ignition. Make Ignition not only double STR & INT but also double the PATK.

- Buff Crecentia's bonus stat. Not only 1 INT = 5 MATK, make it 1 STR = 6 PATK also. So total PATK we will get each STR is 10 & 5 MATK for each INT.

Edited by HikariKouka, 13 April 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[MoonlitSonata]

Hooo boy, lots of thoughts on how this thread has evolved but I'll just reply to the one MAJOR thing that is really annoying me throughout this thread:

 

^ But 9k8 damage with crit on low level mob like that huge peco ._. I still think CB need a buff

 

Okie, you're pointing this out. HOWEVER (I will update with screencap proof sometime) I get similar numbers when farming osiris mobs for this springtime event's bunnies. If I recall correctly, around 3-4k with no stigma applied on mummies (level 67 mob) and 9-12k with 5 stacks of stigma. Also do not forget that Curse Burst IS AN AREA OF EFFECT SKILL (iirc, affects up to 10 enemies within 5M of the target? not ingame to check) and works at its best in cooperation with Bram Gush. (affects up to 10 enemies within 5M in a cone shape in front of the caster)

 

Personally I'd like Bram Gush to reach 1-3M further in front of me but that's mostly from "CRAP THAT MUMMY WASN'T CLOSE ENOUGH YET," to put it bluntly. :3

[HikariKouka]

You're using Sinister Element to farm mummy? 80% ppl using that Element now. With 200% damage increase I don't care about a skill with 12k damage and need time to stack effect 

But can u see the illegitimacy in ur post? 3-4k for no stigma but 9-12k for 5 stacks? With 5 stacks u will get 25% damage bonus which around 750~1000 damage bonus.

You can see in pics above. I got 36k HP to spare   So I don't see any problem tanking all mummy while my LoD & Vador are doing their job 

Edited by HikariKouka, 13 April 2014 - 04:15 PM.

[MoonlitSonata]

But can u see the illegitimacy in ur post? 3-4k for no stigma but 9-12k for 5 stacks? With 5 stacks u will get 25% damage bonus which around 750~1000 damage bonus.

 

I also noted in my initial post "If I recall correctly." Although I wasn't stating outright I was in a situation where my computer was extremely laggy and couldn't attempt to farm without risking loss of MP. However, when dueling someone, these are the numbers I got: 

With the added 200% from Sinister element against mummies, my IIRC is NOT THAT FAR OFF. As i said, 3-4k for no stigma hits, no stigma on Billy hit for 1.5k, which is half of 3k. I then applied 5 stacks of stigma on him, (Edited out one of the diem winds derp) Curse bursted, 5.4k regular hit, 10.7k critical hit. Which doubled... 10.8k, which is still in the land of my IIRC earlier. Also to be noted is that neither of us were using PvP gear at the time, so this is just with his def figured in. If you still don't believe me, then come fight me ingame for proof yourself

 

 

You can see in pics above. I got 36k HP to spare     So I don't see any problem tanking all mummy while my LoD & Vador are doing their job  

Where did I say I had any problems about tanking mummies? (also 36k HP is A LOT and my guild's holding the golden WoE emp, I only get that high HP with blessing/collector's buff/VIP on... good blueseeds?)

[Lanie]

3-4k for no stigma but 9-12k for 5 stacks? With 5 stacks u will get 25% damage bonus which around 750~1000 damage bonus.

You're making the assumption that the 25% bonus is on the end damage. What I've seen instead is that 5 stacks tends to cause something like triple the original damage. Their 25% thing is a bunch of garbage, no idea how they use it. Tempest is supposed to be similarly wonky, but I have had even less success determining what that does instead, only that the results of stigma are higher than estimated. Even Land of Darkness isn't doing what it says it should be doing with stigma, instead it's much more.

This is one reason why I said Curse Burst was pretty amazing. However, if the stigma skills that apply it aren't doing nearly as much damage as they should, I would really appreciate that being fixed. Tempest also similarly would be really impressive doing it's end resulting damage properly on 5 stigma if physical damage wasn't broken...

[HikariKouka]

I see   So skill's descriptions are talking nonsense    Cause I've tried CB before AoV came and it was totally useless 

Well I guess I will need to reset my build and try with lv 5 CB later. Hope I can reach 15k critical with 5 stacks.

 

@ Numbers: Sorry I misread. I tot u afraid of being surround by mummies.