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God Item Creation/WoE Rebalance


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#226 Xellie

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 02:47 PM

Themes : the point I am making is that we went from zero sets to 25+ in the space of 2 weeks. Any guild can gather those sets if the econ situation stays as is. The creation of asprika has been robbed of being any kind of an achievement, it's just a side effect of WoE. I do not know why Valk did not create Asprikas with their econ. But I know that you had the ability and the items for it exist.

 

There are guilds of equal strength, you just choose to not fight them. The lack of guilds is a sociopolitical problem. I can tell you that Valhalla only grows strong because the other guilds entertain us. Nothing stops you from fighting each other. We have deliberately removed ourselves from the situation in order to try and encourage that sort of atmosphere. It never changes.

You can't expect us to divide so that we can be allied against. We need to see other guilds playing vs each other before we're comfortable dividing up.

 

new guilds will not start on this server as is. And it will only become more and more unappealing the more gods / mvps ANY SIDE gains. Like I have said before, how you feel about us? New players will feel about Valk. So you must be able to sympathize here.

 

If you can talk to us... We're willing to split up / match your numbers via being 2 guilds (valk/aurora), because we want the server to improve.


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#227 Divine

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 03:40 PM

There's just zero balance between the guilds right now. There's no guilds of equal strength, which would be fine if we had a bunch of guilds because then they could ally/merge like we've been doing to get strong enough to fight the larger guilds. It's just not fun, changing the number of forts or the way god items are made wont actually change this. The only proposed change that is actually going to have a positive effect on peoples experiences would be a woe lite with no gods/mvps but it's still going to suffer from size/organisation differences.

 

I definitely agree with this. I just found out that theres really only 3 guilds on Classic server that WoE seriously. Every guild has pretty much quit now and we've offered numerous suggestions as to bring back the old guilds. The only problem is they cant really be done... i.e Guild Cap.

 

 

The GMs should be focusing on finding ways to get more players on this server and then interesting them in sieging, in that order. If there's some guilds you can actually convince to return (or start) I'm sure the GMs would be willing to help them out, I believe Campitor has said they'd be willing to help. But making changes to existing game systems without any promise of new players is only going to disrupt the current playerbase which is not a good idea.

 

^

This is what GMs should be focusing on because WoE is stale. There arent enough people to create a balanced atmosphere and it gets frustrating every single week when the numbers keep on dropping. We need to stop with all these changes to God Item creation because its not going to help if there is no one left to make Gods. Several people wanted the Renewal -> Classic transfers, but at this point it might not be enough (and its not something that can easily be done anyways). Hopefully if the changes keep on going with janeway we can draw more and more players to Classic but we need something to keep them here.

  • Gramps style TI - I might get alot of hate by saying this, but imo this is what gives alot of players on Renewal something to do every day. With a cool down of 24 hours you aren't forced to farm for 15 hours straight! We already have a Dragon turn in and Juperos turn in (with no cool down). If you did this, you could put in the Eden Merit badges and have them tradable for Reset Stones, WoE Blue potions, maybe even some other WoE supplies (low rates). This will help newer players level up, help newer guilds with supplies, and encourage more party play? Cause lets face it, theres only ONE dragon party going on at a time for the ENTIRE server and that is kinda lame...

 

Lets focus on attracting more people and keeping them here, instead of constantly changing the God Seal quest over and over again to make it harder for people -_- .


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#228 Themes

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 03:47 PM

What we want, is the GMs to focus on attracting players to the server and then start turning them towards woe. It's hard because you're looking for different things from your siege experience than us. It's the same sorts of things that have made us the black sheep over the last year or so. We just want to sit down and enjoy our 4 hours a week as I'm sure you do. But you're achieving things a lot faster than we are and it's impossible to have anything close to a fair or balanced fight against you because there are no other guilds here on your level. When you asked me about our meta under your parachute forum account I actually chuckled to myself over it, people can choose to play whatever they like and we're okay with it even if it means we dont have a Bio, Strings, Linker or one Sac has 4 or 5 Wizards and our recaller to manage.

 

We're not asking or demanding anything from VH, just saying that we need more people for this server, desperately. We're almost never going to be able to fight you GVG style (even if we were interested) and what you need to do is find some opponents if that's what you're looking for. If you can guarantee that the Hatebreeds or WCs will return with some very specific woe changes, I'm all ears, because that's absolutely what you guys need. However I dont think we're in a situation like that right now and we need to start smaller and further away and build up to something.


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#229 Xellie

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 04:01 PM

Themes

 

Valhalla is NOT A gvg guild. We're just an organized group who are goal orientated. We're more like Valk than wc or hb.

the reason we look toward Valk as our opponents is that "stuff" matters. You guys econ, you guys have goals, you guys want "things." In my mind, you're playing correctly.

The only purpose gvgs have to me is to build my players abilities, since we're gonna lose if we defend something and they are inexperienced. We don't run a strict roster. Most people play w/e. We dual missing things (linkers lmao) and we fill the minstrel role randomly pretty much every week. We're not one of "those" guilds. Call me strange but I believe iRO players identify themselves with a class, and that is them. That's how we try to play.

 

This server right now is in a weird state of half catering to gvg-pserver weekend warriors with all the trimmings that come from being iRO. Yanno, that's not nice.

 

Being honest the reason valk might think you are the "black sheep" of the server is nothing to do with you econning, or precasting (me thinking its not an effective strategy does not mean I'm belitting Valk for doing so as pserver/gvg guilds may) - it comes from the constant war of attrition tactics that rely on a dead server. Which although effective, are also directly tying into why WoE loses value for even non-gvg guilds.

 

I'm not playing any blame games here, I just want to make sure we are on the same page.

 

The changes that will bring back hb/wc I believe will be gvg changes which hold no interest for me. I like to play the big game. They can slap eachother silly in one corner of the server all day and I don't feel like it is "good". It's pointless.

 

What I'm looking for is a motivated opponent that wants to make its gods, one that we can do our little dance and try to block eachother, strategize and battle without getting bored.

 

What would you do, if Valk was in this situation? When I lost my way and ran out of goals and opponents, I had VH merge into wc whilst i took time out. Is it our numbers? Is it our gods? please tell me what you would change so that we fight over the castles we need, not go afk for most of woe.

 


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#230 Themes

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 04:54 PM

What I'm looking for is a motivated opponent that wants to make its gods, one that we can do our little dance and try to block eachother, strategize and battle without getting bored.

 

What would you do, if Valk was in this situation? When I lost my way and ran out of goals and opponents, I had VH merge into wc whilst i took time out. Is it our numbers? Is it our gods? please tell me what you would change so that we fight over the castles we need, not go afk for most of woe.

 

Bolded for where we differ the most. We're past that point, we're not even at the point where we can make our own items never mind put ourselves into a position to block anyone else from making them. We're not interested in competing directly with any guilds like that. I absolutely understand that point of view, but that's not why I'm playing here anymore.

 

But I dont think there's really anything VH or the GMs can do to make us interested in directly competing with VH like that. Hatebreed was probably one of the best shots you guys had at finding a guild you could use as an opponent, however they were drawn into the GVG with WC and the absolute flood of RMT'd items ruined any opportunity there. Your best bet is to look at established groups or playerbases and see if we can get them to join us, but as zerowon said a few posts ago, it's expensive to get started here and there isnt enough people active outside of woe to make it feel like an active community. Hence why we're looking at trying to get the GMs to just increase total population before building upon war of emperium.

 

I'm also going to add this here:

 

2:11 p.m. - Tolrin: if valk was in this position, which we were for a long time on valk server, we would sit on our lead, and defend our forts until guilds were interested in fighting over what we had. It is easy to create a situation where other guilds are forced to fight you for a fort by simply denying access to an item. Running around and fighting people doesn't work, because you leave plenty of opporunities to accomplish goals by misdirection or luck. If instead a guild was forced to fight you for the last piece they need to make an item, eventually guilds would do so.

 

2:16 p.m. - Tolrin: by being the strongest guild on the server for a long time, 6+ months, but never, ever defending a fort and always prioritizing offense, you've already driven away most of the guilds that would have been up and comers, and would have tried to accomplish stuff. at this point it will take much longer for the server to recover naturally because there are much less small groups of players that have tried to get organized, most of the little guilds have dissapeared. this means that regardless of what you do, theres going to be woes where you have to sit around and do nothing while other people get interested in doing things. you have to look at things from the other perspective, you are so hung up on YOUR numbers, and YOUR items, and YOUR goals, but what leads to good competion is the OTHER sides goals/items/numbers. It isn't something you can change internally, and it isn't something you can force on players, it is something that people have to want to do on their own. If the gms can come up with ways to encourage guild growth and organization thats great, but so far I havn't seen any ideas that will make players interested in starting their own team/guild/whatever and getting into the pvp scene, and i certainly don't have any ideas on how to get people interested of my own.

 

2:20 p.m. - Tolrin: just as an example from the past, on valk server, my guild had something like 250 blue asprika pieces from bottom left rachel, because we sat on that fort at 100 econ for almost a whole year while other guilds caught up. we didn't sell or trade pieces, we didn't sell runs, we completly denied access to the item from the rest of the server. eventually guilds grew large enough (dissolution and others) and got interested enough to take the fort from us, and thats when valk's woe scene actually became competetive. I can't garuntee the same thing would work on this server, it might be too late into it's growth, there might not be enough new players coming in, there might be too many items out in the wild already for people to care, but thats my $0.02 on the topic.

 

 

 


Edited by Themes, 09 March 2015 - 04:54 PM.

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#231 Xellie

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 05:23 PM

Bolded for where we differ the most. We're past that point, we're not even at the point where we can make our own items never mind put ourselves into a position to block anyone else from making them. We're not interested in competing directly with any guilds like that. I absolutely understand that point of view, but that's not why I'm playing here anymore.

 

Fair Enough.
 

 

But I dont think there's really anything VH or the GMs can do to make us interested in directly competing with VH like that. Hatebreed was probably one of the best shots you guys had at finding a guild you could use as an opponent, however they were drawn into the GVG with WC and the absolute flood of RMT'd items ruined any opportunity there.

You are correct. And HB was a huge turn off on the game for us. Infact it made our leadership quit.

 

 

Your best bet is to look at established groups or playerbases and see if we can get them to join us, but as zerowon said a few posts ago, it's expensive to get started here and there isnt enough people active outside of woe to make it feel like an active community. Hence why we're looking at trying to get the GMs to just increase total population before building upon war of emperium.

 

We are on the same page then. The concerns VH has voiced have been more about not making the server completely unappealing for startup groups. Using feedback from my stream, the first question they ask is "how many god items are on the server? How many MVP cards are on the server?"

This is something that both our sides would need to compromise on for the good of the server. I'm sorry if it hasn't come across like that in the past, it's never been about maintaining a lead or anything, we just don't feel that we should have to stop playing or achieving our goals for the server's benefit. It's never been about stifling valk and I am sincerely sorry if it ever came across in that manner.

 

Do we need to pause our activity for the server to build up? Can we agree on something that doesn't impact one of us more than the other? Perhaps total god/mvp disablement would be a step toward making the WoE enviroment less foreboding.

 

I'm not saying that will solve everything, they need start up packages, transfers, etc. But we need to address all aspects of the problem, including the psychology.

 

    2:11 p.m. - Tolrin: if valk was in this position, which we were for a long time on valk server, we would sit on our lead, and defend our forts until guilds were interested in fighting over what we had. It is easy to create a situation where other guilds are forced to fight you for a fort by simply denying access to an item. Running around and fighting people doesn't work, because you leave plenty of opporunities to accomplish goals by misdirection or luck. If instead a guild was forced to fight you for the last piece they need to make an item, eventually guilds would do so.

 

Tolrin, you're a smart guy. You pick up on my plans very quickly. Then you must realize that a certain group were blocking our access to pieces we needed. I used the server drop rates to my advantage and stacked other parts of sets en masse all at once, instead of focusing econ of one piece.

I knew they couldn't block me forever. One slip up finishes not one set, but three or four. I let other guilds econ for me then snatch it when I'm ready, building the pieces up from other places.

I do not wish to sit in a stale fort for months on end, precasting against well... nobody, just waiting for the merged guild of the same people to show up and number us, until the cycle repeats again. If economy was worth fighting for, then I'd do it, but economy is detrimental.

 

This is a problem with castle drops and the economy system.

 

Helpful super villain has spoken.

 

  2:16 p.m. - Tolrin: by being the strongest guild on the server for a long time, 6+ months, but never, ever defending a fort and always prioritizing offense, you've already driven away most of the guilds that would have been up and comers, and would have tried to accomplish stuff. at this point it will take much longer for the server to recover naturally because there are much less small groups of players that have tried to get organized, most of the little guilds have dissapeared. this means that regardless of what you do, theres going to be woes where you have to sit around and do nothing while other people get interested in doing things. you have to look at things from the other perspective, you are so hung up on YOUR numbers, and YOUR items, and YOUR goals, but what leads to good competion is the OTHER sides goals/items/numbers. It isn't something you can change internally, and it isn't something you can force on players, it is something that people have to want to do on their own. If the gms can come up with ways to encourage guild growth and organization thats great, but so far I havn't seen any ideas that will make players interested in starting their own team/guild/whatever and getting into the pvp scene, and i certainly don't have any ideas on how to get people interested of my own.

 

Well whilst we are *BOTH* farming the crap out of WoE we are collectively making it even more unappealing.

 

I care greatly about your numbers (I feel your items issue is slightly self inflicted out of stubbornness, but lets not debate that here) and your goals. When I offer you something like a fight with equal numbers, notice I didn't use the words gvg once. Infact I think I said something about entertaining BOTH of our members. If you have problems with supply, consider it an investment into your members. There are things both of us can do as guildleaders to LEAD our people and make their time more fun. I don't want to talk down to you, I respect that you have led a guild through a larger server than I ever have and that you have kept valk together so long, but sometimes, I want to slap you!

 

We are "enemies" / rivals, wtfever. That doesn't mean that we can't be beneficial to each other too. You wanna find rewarding team activities to build your population, either invent them or think them up and suggest them. If we need to make up our own entertainment to keep the people we play alongside interested, so be it. I will continue to do so, I'm sure you do in your own way, but if we could work together it'd help everyone.

 

But again, I must re-iterate, what we as established players achieve now, in the server's downtime can be the thing that discourages start ups. That is 90% my concern here. 10% of it is valk, but then again, if we can't bring ourselves to understand eachother then there's little hope.

 

  2:20 p.m. - Tolrin: just as an example from the past, on valk server, my guild had something like 250 blue asprika pieces from bottom left rachel, because we sat on that fort at 100 econ for almost a whole year while other guilds caught up. we didn't sell or trade pieces, we didn't sell runs, we completly denied access to the item from the rest of the server. eventually guilds grew large enough (dissolution and others) and got interested enough to take the fort from us, and thats when valk's woe scene actually became competetive. I can't garuntee the same thing would work on this server, it might be too late into it's growth, there might not be enough new players coming in, there might be too many items out in the wild already for people to care, but thats my $0.02 on the topic.

 

It is too late. Also the drop rates are much higher here anyway. I also never sold unique pieces (whats up @ 38 wheels of unknown btw) - but nobody here even wants to make gods. Perhaps its indicative of server pop issues, but what is related is the huge number of gods deterring start ups.

 

All of Juno being over 50 econ is sort of symptomatic of this. None of us should be THIS far ahead. Well thats what the econ wipes were advocated to prevent, so that kind of denial game play would be feasible. But you know it's too little too late now.

We both know that.

 

So work with what we have.

 

edit: We could of course just talk directly. I know that you care and want to keep playing and I know you want to fix it. You are a guildleader that is still here and logs in every day. That is the only thing I need to see to know that you care for RO and the experiences that come with it. So even if it's awkward, can we please try to find a solution? We won't agree 100% on everything, our origins are very different. Don't be held back by preconceptions of what you think Valhalla or myself may want or aim for.


Edited by Xellie, 09 March 2015 - 05:38 PM.

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#232 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 05:56 PM

My question with reviving the server population goes back to a the same thing.... Who is the target audience? There are really only 3 options. People who have never played before, people who have quit, and pserver players.

 

People who have never played before. Why should they start up on a game that is as old as this one? What does this game offer that other games do not? 

 

^My thoughts are this game is hard to get new players because it takes so much time, on all levels. It takes months to years to build up to being "established", the wide range is due to time investment/who you know or meet. A new player starting the game with very little direction will get lost, however this new Asguard or w/e is very good for this issue. There are other issues for players who have never ever seen RO before....

 

-Leveling takes an insane amount of time.

-How the -_- do you do job changes? I have never depended on in game chats for quests from NPCs, to me its all horrible. I've always depended on websites like irowiki... This is a real challenge for others.

-The market is very intimidating. From a new eyes who have never seen this game looking at things for 99m on vend when they are making 3 zeny per jellopy they hunt. 

-Lack of social hubs. People use to say RO was a chatroom with avatars.... It kind of is and that is one of the best parts of the game!

-Going to get rolled in any pvp/woe setting for a very long time unless carried hard. There is a huge learning curve for this game in all aspects.

 

Players who have quit to come back?

 

Some will come back if appropriate changes were made. However, ANY change could result in potential loss from the current playerbase and could result in MAYBE getting a handful of players back. I think understanding why these players left would be key, however all you would learn is "what not to do.... again". 

 

Pserver players?

 

Contrary to popular belief, there is a plethora of RO "classic" players in the world. I mean 10's of thousands. Not all pserver players play just for WoE. WoE is apart of the game, a vital part. However, no server has any longevity without a balance in pvm and WoE. Also, you will never see a successful server based only around WoE with longevity and you also wont ever see a server with only pvm be successful...

 

Having "vanilla" WoE's (no gods/mvps) could be a great thing to do for this. Many many players who do "other" servers will find out immediately how flooded this server is with items. They simply will not come at all because of that. I am not talking about "GVG" guilds, because with 10's of thousands of playerbase it is obvious that not all are like that. I am simply saying, why would they ever join this server, period. They are not "bad people", they might be misinformed and a handful may have set a biased in people's heads.... But they are not all good or bad. It is a potential playerbase to tap into and doing that would involve changes to both PVM and WoE.

 

Solutions

 

Make the game more newbie friendly (video thread would help, new village is key ect). The staff is doing great at this.

ADVERTISEMENT. Do it in any way the staff can and the playerbase. 

Offer some WoE's to be "vanilla"

Focus on creating a social environment in game. Get a community picked "hang out area". Kind of what south pront was back in the day....

ect ect, but focus on integrating making life for a brand new player easier on all levels.

 

Things that will not offer real solutions...

 

Making drastic changes to -_- already here, unless making things less time consuming but not necessarily easier. Any major change that everybody can't agree on at this point in time will not be a spark that opens up a flood gate of new players. Instead it will do the opposite and continue to cripple the playerbase population. 

 

Ignoring WoE problems. Again, no server can survive without WoE. WoE really can't get any worse, but if it did then it could be the nail on the coffin.


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#233 xSwain

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 05:59 AM

And another interesting topic died without being resolved

 

Some will come back if appropriate changes were made. However, ANY change could result in potential loss from the current playerbase and could result in MAYBE getting a handful of players back. I think understanding why these players left would be key, however all you would learn is "what not to do.... again". 

 

In 2013/2014, Nostalgic was unsatisfied with server's lag, number of bots and duped items. When some Insurrection's members got banned and the entire guild left, we left too. that's the reason of the mass leave.

 

I'll always repeat that WoEs and godlies was created to be a very competitive place for lots of guilds,

 

We had Ghostring card for this scenario 

https://vimeo.com/3391475

 

Where 75% physical damage and 25% magic damage reduction was needed to break a 200 member's guild. Now we have VH and Valkyrie with 30~35 members per WOE, the others guilds 10~25 members. If you count all players in WoE, you can't have as much as a single guild in 2006 had, but we have the same number of available castles, the same godlies, and a increased MvP/Mini-boss drop rate (bubble gum, vip, etc).

 

IMO,

- No godlies/mvp/mini-boss cards allowed in woe 1.0 (they're still useful on Endless Tower, MvP contests, WoE 2.0).

- Total number of castles decreased to 2 castles per realm or only 1 realm with castles (some guild need to end the war without a castle).

- No alliances.

- Change the castle chest loot (GSBs, Miracle Tonics to help new players to leveling)

- Leveling events like repeatable quests on Castle Dungeons (ecourage GvG fights outside WoEs)

- Add a delay to new godlies seals (maybe 4 months or 6 between each godly creation)

- No Tokens of Siegfried inside Castle Dungeons (Godly Creation should be a fight, a GvG where the winner have the Godly. Today you just die near the NPC wearing Evil Druid card, and when the last seal open,self ressurrect and who have faster finger and less lag catch the item)

 

@EDIT

Recreate a new classic server is out of question. The "Spiritual RO Successor" is near to be released and most part of RO fans are focused on this release.To have a new server,we need to have publicity for 1~3 months to call people to the server and it's impracticable in an old game like RO. The only way I see to "ressurrect" a lot of RO players is joining with bRO, pRO, kRO, jRO publishers and create an international server with low lag, high inspection and correcting all the mistakes they made in each server. But it sounds impossible too.


Edited by xSwain, 15 July 2015 - 06:39 AM.

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#234 Xellie

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 10:49 AM

Nostalgic was unsatisfied with server's lag, number of bots and duped items. When some Insurrection's members got banned and the entire guild left, we left too.

 

That's funny because those things are related.

 

- Neither VH nor Valk are that big

- if you wanna disable gods/mvp/minis do it in WoE 2, along with the cash shop items.

- I've never used a token to create a godly and probably never will. Pointless. Tokens should be disabled in GD for combat. If a guild can't control the seal timing / thinks that being dead is faster than being alive, they don't deserve the item (that's how I beat you guys from across the Atlantic btw. I know before the seal closes, I don't wait for a reactionary message.)

- GSB have no place in treasure. Rewarding the strong by making them stronger and crippling the competition's ability to supply equally is a bad idea.

- Gods are taking months between creations now

 


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#235 Psicratus

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 01:41 AM

Since everyone is giving their opinions, i'll give mine too.

To me, the changes we need concerning WoE rebalance, and therefore the god items creation, all to make this game more thrilling, makes me think of Mesopotamia, wich encompasses the land between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, both of which have their headwaters in the Armenian Highlands. Both rivers are fed by numerous tributaries, and the entire river system drains a vast mountainous region. Overland routes in Mesopotamia usually follow the Euphrates because the banks of the Tigris are frequently steep and difficult. The climate of the region is semi-arid with a vast desert expanse in the north which gives way to a 15,000 square kilometres (5,800 sq mi) region of marshes, lagoons, mud flats, and reed banks in the south. In the extreme south, the Euphrates and the Tigris unite and empty into the Persian Gulf.

The arid environment which ranges from the northern areas of rain-fed agriculture to the south where irrigation of agriculture is essential if a surplus energy returned on energy invested(EROEI) is to be obtained. This irrigation is aided by a high water table and by melting snows from the high peaks of the northern Zagros Mountains and from the Armenian Highlands, the source of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers that give the region its name. The usefulness of irrigation depends upon the ability to mobilize sufficient labor for the construction and maintenance of canals, and this, from the earliest period, has assisted the development of urban settlements and centralized systems of political authority.

Agriculture throughout the region has been supplemented by nomadic pastoralism, where tent-dwelling nomads herded sheep and goats (and later camels) from the river pastures in the dry summer months, out into seasonal grazing lands on the desert fringe in the wet winter season. The area is generally lacking in building stone, precious metals and timber, and so historically has relied upon long-distance trade of agricultural products to secure these items from outlying areas. In the marshlands to the south of the area, a complex water-borne fishing culture has existed since prehistoric times, and has added to the cultural mix.

Periodic breakdowns in the cultural system have occurred for a number of reasons. The demands for labor has from time to time led to population increases that push the limits of the ecological carrying capacity, and should a period of climatic instability ensue, collapsing central government and declining populations can occur. Alternatively, military vulnerability to invasion from marginal hill tribes or nomadic pastoralists has led to periods of trade collapse and neglect of irrigation systems. Equally, centripetal tendencies amongst city states has meant that central authority over the whole region, when imposed, has tended to be ephemeral, and localism has fragmented power into tribal or smaller regional units. These trends have continued to the present day in Iraq. Therefore, that is what I think, and I strongly believe in these arguments i brought up and that Xellie is a qt.


Edited by Psicratus, 17 July 2015 - 02:27 AM.

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#236 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 01:42 AM

Since everyone is giving their opinion, i'll give mine too.

To me, the changes we need in WoE 2.0 to make this game more thrilling makes me think of Mesopotamia, wich encompasses the land between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, both of which have their headwaters in the Armenian Highlands. Both rivers are fed by numerous tributaries, and the entire river system drains a vast mountainous region. Overland routes in Mesopotamia usually follow the Euphrates because the banks of the Tigris are frequently steep and difficult. The climate of the region is semi-arid with a vast desert expanse in the north which gives way to a 15,000 square kilometres (5,800 sq mi) region of marshes, lagoons, mud flats, and reed banks in the south. In the extreme south, the Euphrates and the Tigris unite and empty into the Persian Gulf.

The arid environment which ranges from the northern areas of rain-fed agriculture to the south where irrigation of agriculture is essential if a surplus energy returned on energy invested(EROEI) is to be obtained. This irrigation is aided by a high water table and by melting snows from the high peaks of the northern Zagros Mountains and from the Armenian Highlands, the source of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers that give the region its name. The usefulness of irrigation depends upon the ability to mobilize sufficient labor for the construction and maintenance of canals, and this, from the earliest period, has assisted the development of urban settlements and centralized systems of political authority.

Agriculture throughout the region has been supplemented by nomadic pastoralism, where tent-dwelling nomads herded sheep and goats (and later camels) from the river pastures in the dry summer months, out into seasonal grazing lands on the desert fringe in the wet winter season. The area is generally lacking in building stone, precious metals and timber, and so historically has relied upon long-distance trade of agricultural products to secure these items from outlying areas. In the marshlands to the south of the area, a complex water-borne fishing culture has existed since prehistoric times, and has added to the cultural mix.

Periodic breakdowns in the cultural system have occurred for a number of reasons. The demands for labor has from time to time led to population increases that push the limits of the ecological carrying capacity, and should a period of climatic instability ensue, collapsing central government and declining populations can occur. Alternatively, military vulnerability to invasion from marginal hill tribes or nomadic pastoralists has led to periods of trade collapse and neglect of irrigation systems. Equally, centripetal tendencies amongst city states has meant that central authority over the whole region, when imposed, has tended to be ephemeral, and localism has fragmented power into tribal or smaller regional units. These trends have continued to the present day in Iraq. Therefore, that is what I think, and I strongly believe in these arguments i brought up and that Xellie is a qt.

 

Quoting before it gets edited because lolwat XD


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#237 Necrohealiac

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 06:09 AM

it's like the English version of Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet
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#238 Xellie

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 12:33 AM

Nearly forgot this was a thing


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#239 needmorezleep

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 04:09 PM

feb in a few months either close the thread or give a date plz


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