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#1 Campitor

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 03:43 PM

Goal: To increase competition in the WoE 2 scene and cause more combat between users.

 

Proposal:

Reduce the castle count in each realm by 2. The castles removed would be numbers 4 and 5 in each realm.

Treasure box contents would be redistributed to the other castles within the realm. This would then concentrate users into more castles leading to more combat.

 

 

Target Date: 3/18

Process:

Since its kind of unfair to remove castles from only certain guilds all castles will undergo a one time ownership reset. This reset would also include a Econ/Defense Reset.

 

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

Please note the following:

Claims of Bias will result in a weekend forum suspension and the post being removed and discarded. If you believe that the idea is unsound state that and say why. Do not say "So and So likes this so the GMs must be biased."


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#2 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 04:51 PM

Reducing castle size isn't a bad thing, however it will not obtain the goal of "increased competition in the WoE 2 scene and cause more combat between users.". I agree with the changes and more should be done with WoE 1 as well.

 

However, as history has shown that even when the server has had 2k population most of the competition was still centralized in 1-2 castles. Makes no difference the amount of castles, it will still be 1-2 castles at the most with the most action. 

 

It is a good change to limit soloists taking castles though and reward teamwork across the board. But again, the loot is meaningless so the incentive to hold for treasure is minimal. 

 

Summary, wont increase combat at all but it will limit solo play. Step in the right direction. 


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#3 Themes

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 04:52 PM

Please be more specific about your plans for treasure. Are you randomising it for each fort like Renewal? Is there going to be forts with multiple pieces? Are you going to change the drop rates or modify the contents (Chain Mail, Mufflers etc)?

 

I still dont think this is the best way to liven up woe, if you want people to run around fighting give them a reason to or find ways to get more people interested in attending. Right now there's a huge number/power variance between the four to five guilds showing up for 2.0. Reducing the number of forts just means that instead of 10 forts for 4 guilds you have 6 forts for 4 guilds, the larger and more powerful guilds will still be capable of holding two of those and any new entrant will struggle to find anywhere to get involved.  You seem pretty set on it so I'm not really going to argue the point too hard here.


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#4 Divine

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:14 PM

I really like that you guys are finally going through some implementing some actual change in WoE.

 

As Gn1ydnu stated, it will not increase combat between players. This would have been the case if there were more than "4" guilds WoEing. The reason I say "4" is because there is 1 big guild, 1 medium sized guild, and 2 smaller guilds. Classic WoE population has just always been low and now that 2 major guilds have left its had abysmal attendance.

 

Instead of forcing combat, you need to look at why people are not fighting.

  • Guild Cap / Ally Reduction - I am not trying to bash anyone here, but anyone can see that one guild completely out numbers any other guild and that gives them a clear advantage. Its been suggested by several guilds (the ones that have quit as well) to create a guild cap to prevent zerging / outnumbering and remove alliances or limit them to one. This creates a much more even playing field for smaller and newer guilds and hopefully will bring back the guilds who left. If you want to argue that itll ruin PVM guilds, look at Classic's population. You cant fit that many active people into a PvM guild. If its still a real big deal, then have it so people register their guild for WoE and those guilds can only be a certain lvl (to get recall skill and low lvl guild extension). GMs will have to monitor the guilds to make sure they follow this.
  • Power Balance - Gods / MvP Cards : There is clearly an imbalance of power in regards to God items, but Im not sure what the GM team can really do about that except to create the alternative WoE with no Gods / MvPs.

 


Edited by Divine, 26 February 2015 - 05:16 PM.

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#5 Campitor

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:19 PM

 

I really like that you guys are finally going through some implementing some actual change in WoE.

 

As Gn1ydnu stated, it will not increase combat between players. This would have been the case if there were more than "4" guilds WoEing. The reason I say "4" is because there is 1 big guild, 1 medium sized guild, and 2 smaller guilds. Classic WoE population has just always been low and now that 2 major guilds have left its had abysmal attendance.

 

Instead of forcing combat, you need to look at why people are not fighting.

  • Guild Cap / Ally Reduction - I am not trying to bash anyone here, but anyone can see that one guild completely out numbers any other guild and that gives them a clear advantage. Its been suggested by several guilds (the ones that have quit as well) to create a guild cap to prevent zerging / outnumbering and remove alliances or limit them to one. This creates a much more even playing field for smaller and newer guilds and hopefully will bring back the guilds who left. If you want to argue that itll ruin PVM guilds, look at Classic's population. You cant fit that many active people into a PvM guild. If its still a real big deal, then have it so people register their guild for WoE and those guilds can only be a certain lvl (to get recall skill and low lvl guild extension). GMs will have to monitor the guilds to make sure they follow this.
  • Power Balance - Gods / MvP Cards : There is clearly an imbalance of power in regards to God items, but Im not sure what the GM team can really do about that except to create the alternative WoE with no Gods / MvPs.

 

it is impossible for us to force a guild cap. But we should be able to make it so that there are no allies in WoE.


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#6 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:36 PM

it is impossible for us to force a guild cap. But we should be able to make it so that there are no allies in WoE.

 

Excellent idea.


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#7 Divine

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:42 PM

it is impossible for us to force a guild cap. But we should be able to make it so that there are no allies in WoE.

 

The idea for no allies is so that the bigger guild wont just split itself up and ally in WoE (if there was a guild cap).

 

If you cant create a guild cap then WoE will just stay the way it is until the smaller guilds start recruiting more people, which really isnt going to happen since there arent many people to recruit. Im trying to be optimistic here, but reducing castles at this point isnt going to accomplish anything unless Im missing something really big.


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#8 squirreI

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:45 PM

It would certainly reduce the number of random econs on a server that doesn't have enough people for all the castles. I think that's an accomplishment.


Edited by squirreI, 26 February 2015 - 05:45 PM.

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#9 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:56 PM

it is impossible for us to force a guild cap. But we should be able to make it so that there are no allies in WoE.

 

This would have been amazing last year, specifically during the summer or fall. I think it is almost too late now since guilds can just merge instead of being allied. The WoE pop has dropped so much since back when we were pushing for this that the entire server could fit into 2 guilds. 

 

Worst case scenario: To defend econ guild A eats up smaller guilds. To break econ guild B eats up the other guilds. These could be temp "merges" to accomplish similar goals. Guild B quits, what is left for server? 

 

Again, this would have been amazing and helped a lot back 6 months ago-a couple years ago. However, at this dire point that might not be good. 


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#10 squirreI

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:58 PM

It would be interesting to have a guild cap of 10.


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#11 Divine

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 06:06 PM

It would certainly reduce the number of random econs on a server that doesn't have enough people for all the castles. I think that's an accomplishment.

 

mm yeah I see

 

Everything just goes back to population and Classic just doesnt have one to fit a very stable WoE environment. Keep up with being proactive with WoE and listening to the community though I like the change of pace.


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#12 lyriell84

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 10:00 AM

Wipe the server clean and start anew. It's the only way to save this server at this point imo and the best opportunity to do so with the potential newcomers from pRo.

 

Reducing the amount of castles by 2 probably won't have much of an effect at this point. With the current population you'd have to have only like 2-4 castles in total to be able to have any sort of real competition.


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#13 Ecclesio

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 10:20 AM

 

I really like that you guys are finally going through some implementing some actual change in WoE.

 

As Gn1ydnu stated, it will not increase combat between players. This would have been the case if there were more than "4" guilds WoEing. The reason I say "4" is because there is 1 big guild, 1 medium sized guild, and 2 smaller guilds. Classic WoE population has just always been low and now that 2 major guilds have left its had abysmal attendance.

 

Instead of forcing combat, you need to look at why people are not fighting.

  • Guild Cap / Ally Reduction - I am not trying to bash anyone here, but anyone can see that one guild completely out numbers any other guild and that gives them a clear advantage. Its been suggested by several guilds (the ones that have quit as well) to create a guild cap to prevent zerging / outnumbering and remove alliances or limit them to one. This creates a much more even playing field for smaller and newer guilds and hopefully will bring back the guilds who left. If you want to argue that itll ruin PVM guilds, look at Classic's population. You cant fit that many active people into a PvM guild. If its still a real big deal, then have it so people register their guild for WoE and those guilds can only be a certain lvl (to get recall skill and low lvl guild extension). GMs will have to monitor the guilds to make sure they follow this.
  • Power Balance - Gods / MvP Cards : There is clearly an imbalance of power in regards to God items, but Im not sure what the GM team can really do about that except to create the alternative WoE with no Gods / MvPs.

 

^^^


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#14 Xellie

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 06:50 PM

Too little, too late.

 

No guarantee of preventing the same problem in the future.


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#15 Arctic

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:52 AM

Econ reset all castles instead of just WoE2. It's hilarious to ninja a castle at the end of WoE1 and find out it has a -_- ton of econ. 


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#16 Tribe

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 03:36 AM

This change plus a server reset! == $$$


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#17 Xellie

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 09:52 AM

Server reset talk is silly, that would change nothing. The influx of cards etc is primarily from drop rates.

 

My guild dropped 5 mvp cards in 4 days outside of a drop event. There's your problem right there. Unless they were willing to remove vip/gum/event related drop shenanigans the server would repeat itself within a couple of months, duped items or no.

 

Back on topic though. If this change is scheduled for tomorrow, I think a little more talk is required about this?

 

- Castle reduction is necessary to combat idle econs.

    but if Valfreyja was to be reduced by 2, then where would the missing asprika piece be acquired from?

 

- Guilds have no interest in fighting (numbers equal or outnumbered)

 

     I have actually asked our opponents their numbers in real time to I can filter my guild into one of my alts to match them more evenly. This is completely preferable to seeing them with no opponent or idling in town. However, as they quite haughtily refuse to work with me on this (this is why wc was fun to have around), I can only assume they are ok with fighting 37-40 vs 15-17. To come here and talk about caps that aren't really possible or state numbers as being the issue is ridiculous when that is quite obviously becoming self inflicted out of pride/spite (pick as necessary)

 

     We all know you aren't going to win, so why not communicate and work with the other side? We all want to play RO, don't we?

 

      Furthermore on that topic, then what is the actual problem? The concept of keeping the big guild in its box so you can quietly econ only works if there is value to them econning in the first place. If everyone can get what they have for free whilst they spend a lot of zeny on achieving the same, expect the server to be burned.

 

- Econ literally has no value

    I abandoned valf4 at 100/70 for a week because I needed a break. I have no regrets. We have only been defending because it's mildly amusing. I guess I like OCAs kinda sorta. Wish they weren't 1/3 their original value. Then again since everyone gets free econ, maybe the OCA-> ACA system is good.

 

    In order to increase combat, there needs to be a reason to compete. As I said before, why would we fight over econned castles when they can just be taken for free after leaving them alone for a few weeks?

 

- God items / MVPs

    Are only a problem for new/inexperienced guilds. Any failure on the part of people complaining about them is 50% tactical 50% organizational (Megingjards didn't make me recall on your emp whilst you cast on the door).

The "sides" are pretty even from my knowledge in terms of god/mvp ownership. Heck, the other "side" even uses some items I made against me from time to time.

 

- No Allies

    You'd still work together. I'd work with my own guild. I ran 6-12 guild alliances on old Chaos. Lets not fool ourselves please. Multiple recallers can create some great advantages if done correctly.


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#18 Oda

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 10:25 AM

Changes to WoE 2 will not go in this week, we're still looking at the feedback being posted here and the suggestions you've given. 


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#19 Xellie

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 10:28 AM

uggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh bbut im so trapped in my 100 econ i dont wanna give up for ego / for free

 

- abandon castle option pls


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#20 Divine

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 10:39 AM

Changes to WoE 2 will not go in this week, we're still looking at the feedback being posted here and the suggestions you've given. 

 

Do you think you can actually watch or even participate in WoE before you make any changes? You can use my pretty High Priest :3

 

Everything on forum is just back and forth and people are so set in their ways. I feel like most people just want something that benefits themselves instead of looking at the server as a whole and progression towards the future. If you actually see how WoE is for yourselves then you can make a better decision instead of listening to people tell you WoE is a certain way.
 


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#21 Xellie

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 10:50 AM

Yeah Oda, watch my stream of past WoE 2s for the past month and you can even listen to your users reactions firsthand and see how much "fun" your players are having and why they do the things they do.

 

It would help if people were willing to share what it is they are looking for from their WoE experience. What are these "benefits" that people are seeking/perceiving? Be clear about what you're saying pls

 

cuz um... ragelogging when the only guild attacks you or offers to split into multiple guilds to fight the other guilds 1v1 on equal terms sorta points toward a desire for non-competition.

 

 

Also, you can pull choobs stats to look at the status of WoE. Last WoE 2 every castle gained +8 econ over the previous week, minimum. A healthy WoE scene no doubt. I'm sure you need to participate in WoE in order to note from server logs that most of these maps had no more than 2~3 people enter them at any given point during WoE.


Edited by Xellie, 17 March 2015 - 10:55 AM.

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#22 Necrohealiac

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 10:59 AM

- Castle reduction is necessary to combat idle econs.
    but if Valfreyja was to be reduced by 2, then where would the missing asprika piece be acquired from?


pretty sure this means that the god drops for the remaining castles in the realms would now become randomized. similar to woe 1 castles in renewal, where each region has lost one castle.
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#23 Xellie

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 11:04 AM

which would be terrible


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#24 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 11:19 AM

They'd be better off doubling up one castle before randomizing. Makes that castle "better", I guess.
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#25 Necrohealiac

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 11:23 AM

which would be terrible


no argument there.
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