100 replies to this topic

[Filipito98]

BUMP, just updated suggestions in 1st post, incase if i forgot any suggestion plz quote it for update 1st post or tell here :3

[Bendersmom]

Actually, the only game I have seen a cleric/white mage/ healer called a full support cleric is on Rose.  In most of the games I have played, the classes have their own buffs. Some are able to give to other party members or just to themselves.  The "healer" can heal and give support buffs like a defense up, protect, things like that for party but also a few buffs for the healer themselves (or not depending on the game).  And other classes can give some party type buffs, depending on the class (or not, depending on game).  The healer/cleric/white mage is then a healer and support by taking debuffs off (most allow the healer something like purify), healing members, and yet still be able to help some with defeating the mobs (just not as strong as the DPS classes).  

 

I used to fight it like crazy when people would get on forums and say take the party buffs/cleric buffs out of the game.  But after doing some exploring while waiting for the server merge I am starting to agree.  I think that one class having buffs that effect everyone makes balancing the classes very hard and makes the cleric have to be full support with no other skills.  Most of us that cleric now have a FS cleric for wars and a FS cleric for farming or quests because the war/dungeon FS cleric is so very specialized and worthless for farming, questing or any solo play.  6-10 years ago it was different for clerics and you could really vary your builds and kill and help the party.  But with the introduction of the game arenas and the many changes to the cleric class over the last few years, there is really only one build for the FS cleric for dungeons and GA and it is a boring class to play.  In addition it sets up the cleric for abuse.

[TheRealCaNehDa]

taking buffs away from cleric, would not save cleric, but completely kill it. 

I would rage quit for sure. 

To make them less, slavey, what about 1 skill that was every buff in one buff? - Pressing 14 buttons for buffs is fail. 

Edited by TheRealCaNehDa, 30 March 2015 - 09:54 AM.

[angeltje]

Actually, the only game I have seen a cleric/white mage/ healer called a full support cleric is on Rose.  In most of the games I have played, the classes have their own buffs. Some are able to give to other party members or just to themselves.  The "healer" can heal and give support buffs like a defense up, protect, things like that for party but also a few buffs for the healer themselves (or not depending on the game).  And other classes can give some party type buffs, depending on the class (or not, depending on game).  The healer/cleric/white mage is then a healer and support by taking debuffs off (most allow the healer something like purify), healing members, and yet still be able to help some with defeating the mobs (just not as strong as the DPS classes).  

 

I used to fight it like crazy when people would get on forums and say take the party buffs/cleric buffs out of the game.  But after doing some exploring while waiting for the server merge I am starting to agree.  I think that one class having buffs that effect everyone makes balancing the classes very hard and makes the cleric have to be full support with no other skills.  Most of us that cleric now have a FS cleric for wars and a FS cleric for farming or quests because the war/dungeon FS cleric is so very specialized and worthless for farming, questing or any solo play.  6-10 years ago it was different for clerics and you could really vary your builds and kill and help the party.  But with the introduction of the game arenas and the many changes to the cleric class over the last few years, there is really only one build for the FS cleric for dungeons and GA and it is a boring class to play.  In addition it sets up the cleric for abuse.

rose has FS cleric so long i can remember and you cant just change it cuz we are the only game with it,

it makes us unique, let us be diffrent! diffrent is good!

maybe less skillpoints for buffs so we can also get other skills? or remove the req for using the im buffs? that way also more sp so more to invest in def passives and attacks!

 

that is more a save!

 

Dare to be diffrent and open minded to be unique!

[KatsuraKujo]

Angel: i think you misunderstood me, i mean to say FS will always be FS because of buffs and heals. And yes, hybrids for pvp and wars are different from them. That's what i mean. I'm more to saying, that clerics (built terms) doesn't nessesary have to have buffs because of these different hybrids. Nothing else :v

 

 

 

[Feuer]

Same here, most of the 'buff's i see from healers in the vast majority of MMO's aren't actually buffs, they're things like damage mitigation, damage prevention, temporary increased recovery, or status resistance. 

As for the 'group' buffs, most I see are just natural, like an aura or proximity buff. Normally they're also significantly weaker, like 5% sometimes 3%, which allows your characters strengths to show, not your buffs strengths... 

I also see most games dont have 1 class with each of every single type of buff, I think they do that because they know it completely destroys balance. It takes away the desire to get the buffs on DPS characters, reinforces the idea that this one class is soley responsible for everything, and puts a huge reliance and crutch on that one char. In the end it just mucks everything up.

 

I like the term 'Support / Full Support", because it instills the thought "healing / helping" in my mind. Not buffs, maybe I was spoiled playing so many other MMO's, but buffs aren't support in my mind, they're enhancements, offensive or defensive CD's [cept in ROSE they has a duration of 900seconds and CD of .5 seconds]. 

 

There is a way to. give clerics the option of buffs + damage or heals + damage, but it'd require reworking where certain passives, buffs and offensive CD's are placed in the tree... 

 

 

[angeltje]

@fuer again rose it rose and with buffs included as FS. again dare to be diffrent !

 

 

my sugestion is: honor gear with deff and/or no requirement for the im buffs that way you can choice to invest less skillpoints and still have your awesome buffs!

[Filipito98]

BUMP, just updated 1st post with u suggestion angel, also dont forget to feedback the 4th suggestion plz , i think most of u guys didnt saw that one yet.

And again thank you guys for the feedbacks and suggestions.

[Feuer]

Can I make a request then?

Can we make it so knights can tank 10 players? I mean they're the tanks they should be able to tank a whole team to support their allies.

And for Champions, can we make it so I can just buy enraged berserk, berserker's cry and only the stun/mute spells, so I can make more room for my own buffs? Cause they're definitely the front line characters so they should have the best if we want to kill.

Oh! and lastly, can we make it so Scouts + Raiders stealth puri again, and take the charges off cloak so you have to decloak to attack them back? 

I feel like I'm missing something.... oh!

Can we just make all mage skills reliable again so we don't need those Accuracy passives? Cause mages are already tight for SP to get the good AoE's and stuns, so if we can get rid of the need for accuracy that'd be cool too,k thanks  

[KatsuraKujo]

Can I make a request then?

Can we make it so knights can tank 10 players? I mean they're the tanks they should be able to tank a whole team to support their allies.

And for Champions, can we make it so I can just buy enraged berserk, berserker's cry and only the stun/mute spells, so I can make more room for my own buffs? Cause they're definitely the front line characters so they should have the best if we want to kill.

Oh! and lastly, can we make it so Scouts + Raiders stealth puri again, and take the charges off cloak so you have to decloak to attack them back? 

I feel like I'm missing something.... oh!

Can we just make all mage skills reliable again so we don't need those Accuracy passives? Cause mages are already tight for SP to get the good AoE's and stuns, so if we can get rid of the need for accuracy that'd be cool too,k thanks

 

okay now you're just trolling lol

[Filipito98]

dam feuer xD u beg for everything hahaha, anyway, well this topic is about clerics, i do understand some things such knight parts but this topic is like for clerics atm. we could like offtopic here after we maybe find a way for balance clerics. for now maybe lets keep in topic if u dont mind

[Feuer]

Ok yes, that was a sarcastic* post I admit BUT it was to point out that even though some justifications sound legitimate, it doesn't always mean they're good ideas. I tried to post the most ridiculous ideas I had, to show how I observe someone asking for a way to completely bypass all the requirements for obtaining AoE buffs so they can just beef up their character that much more. 

And Filip, I wasn't intending on bringing those classes or those requests as a legitimate thing, it was just a demonstration to make a point. Don't worry so much lol

Edited by Feuer, 30 March 2015 - 11:01 AM.

[angeltje]

Ok yes, that was a troll post I admit BUT it was to point out that even though some justifications sound legitimate, it doesn't always mean they're good ideas. I tried to post the most ridiculous ideas I had, to show how I observe someone asking for a way to completely bypass all the requirements for obtaining AoE buffs so they can just beef up their character that much more. 

And Filip, I wasn't intending on bringing those classes or those requests as a legitimate thing, it was just a demonstration to make a point. Don't worry so much lol

 

it was a suggestion and also it was or. two ideas that are better idea then just removing buffs at all! give good ideas and dont remove things and dont start flaming or making fun of others. thats not nice..

just give quallity feedback or better suggestion instead of making fun of other people ideas.
 

also the requirement idea was cuz people want to fight as FS. i dont need that at all. personaly i only think FS needs more option to make def and not remove buffs or other of those kind ideas.

Edited by angeltje, 30 March 2015 - 10:49 AM.

[Bendersmom]

Angel I used to think like you do and would fight the removal of cleric buffs tooth and nail (ask Feure).  But through the years the cleric has changed so much.  As a supportive cleric we were still able to farm and level alone if need be.  We had a few attack skills available to us, not OP skills but enough to get a monster down or protect ourselves a little. We were actually welcomed as a part of the party and protected when in a situation where we would die.  But a lot of the game has changed and I think maybe our role should as well.  Of all of the classes I think the cleric has had the most big direct changes over the years, especially over the last few years.  Since we are working on updating the game of Rose now and then trying to bring in more players someday, maybe bringing in some of the ideas from games that have has some staying power would be a good idea.  A lot of the new ideas that are/have been introduced to Rose get their origins from other games too.  And throughout the whole class balancing of the last few years, the theme I heard the most was how hard it is to balance classes because of buffs.  People also rely on cleric buffs too much and do not get the buffs that they have, therefore being able to put more SP in offensive skills or def, which makes balancing even harder.  

 

I am not arguing pro or con clerics having buffs, I am just trying to explain that I am actually changing my mind about clerics having the buffs.  Which trust me, after 10 years of fighting for clerics and fighting buff decreases, elimination, changes, is a big step for me. Just my opinion and I don't want to argue, but we are talking changes to make the support cleric a more viable and updated class.  

[angeltje]

Angel I used to think like you do and would fight the removal of cleric buffs tooth and nail (ask Feure).  But through the years the cleric has changed so much.  As a supportive cleric we were still able to farm and level alone if need be.  We had a few attack skills available to us, not OP skills but enough to get a monster down or protect ourselves a little. We were actually welcomed as a part of the party and protected when in a situation where we would die.  But a lot of the game has changed and I think maybe our role should as well.  Of all of the classes I think the cleric has had the most big direct changes over the years, especially over the last few years.  Since we are working on updating the game of Rose now and then trying to bring in more players someday, maybe bringing in some of the ideas from games that have has some staying power would be a good idea.  A lot of the new ideas that are/have been introduced to Rose get their origins from other games too.  And throughout the whole class balancing of the last few years, the theme I heard the most was how hard it is to balance classes because of buffs.  People also rely on cleric buffs too much and do not get the buffs that they have, therefore being able to put more SP in offensive skills or def, which makes balancing even harder.  

 

I am not arguing pro or con clerics having buffs, I am just trying to explain that I am actually changing my mind about clerics having the buffs.  Which trust me, after 10 years of fighting for clerics and fighting buff decreases, elimination, changes, is a big step for me. Just my opinion and I don't want to argue, but we are talking changes to make the support cleric a more viable and updated class.  

 

i also play other games where its diffrent but still i like that rose is unique. sorry i cant agree on it. will take time for make me change mind also XD.

[IAfjiBa]

I always loved that Cleric has the abillity to buff and heal but if it comes to that stage that. To be abel to balance out the game is to get rid of the buffs from the Cleric. I will agree to do it. I always loved that Rose Online are unique but some stuff needs to change and maybe this is one that needs to be change.

I really hope we can find another way around it and still be balance and Clerics can keep the buffs.


The problem about Clerics ''cant tank''. Am not saying that Cleric cant tank or can tank. (I havent test out so I dont know).

Lets say Cleric need more defense. Then we dont need a new skill. All we need is to increase the skills'' Dragon skin ''or ''Mystic Armor''. In this way it will only increase the defense for Clerics if they choose that skill.

Edited by Zurn, 31 March 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Feuer]

Bendersmom isn't exaggerating, I was put on moderator qeue twice for how hard we fought, but I am glad to see after she has had some outside experience and given time that she see's the bigger picture more clearly. 

[Filipito98]

The problem about Clerics ''cant tank''. Am not saying that Cleric cant tank or can tank. (I havent test out so I dont know).

 

Lets say Cleric need more defense. Then we dont need a new skill. All we need is to increase the skills'' Dragon skin ''or ''Mystic Armor''. In this way it will only increase the defense for Clerics if they choose that skill. 

buffies, increasing the skill dragon skin or mystic armor would need than to reduce clerics damage (due BC) or BC would be more op as they are atm, just them magic pierce is already enought to kill a non m.def tank. like in the 4th suggestion i did in 1st post

Edited by Filipito98, 30 March 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[KatsuraKujo]

^ note: magic pierce ignores mdef

 

Edit: what i mean when i suggested to fili to lower it down a bit is because they hit mdef. Players don't usually focus on mdef which i also said on the 1st thread (but i think got totally ignored, idk) so a lot of damage is done to players as well as the stuns from the lightning skill which makes it more painful. My opinion ( and yes i know mage is the same thing, but i'm not sure about them so i won't be talking about them)

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 30 March 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Filipito98]

^ note: magic pierce ignores mdef

 

Edit: what i mean when i suggested to fili to lower it down a bit is because they hit mdef. Players don't usually focus on mdef which i also said on the 1st thread (but i think got totally ignored, idk) so a lot of damage is done to players as well as the stuns from the lightning skill which makes it more painful. My opinion ( and yes i know mage is the same thing, but i'm not sure about them so i won't be talking about them)

mage is totally different, them atacks is based in magic type, wich means is np seeing them with magic pierce or other thing, i think mages are balanced in terms vs clerics because clerics have also more m.def instead def wich make them heal up them mates.

[IAfjiBa]

buffies, increasing the skill dragon skin or mystic armor would need than to reduce clerics damage (due BC) or BC would be more op as they are atm, just them magic pierce is already enought to kill a non m.def tank. like in the 4th suggestion i did in 1st post

 

Didnt think about that , Thank you for telling me.

[KatsuraKujo]

mage is totally different, them atacks is based in magic type, wich means is np seeing them with magic pierce or other thing, i think mages are balanced in terms vs clerics because clerics have also more m.def instead def wich make them heal up them mates.

 

uhhh not really, Luna said that a mage stun aoe everyone and they all died there and then... sooooo not quite. yet

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 30 March 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[Filipito98]

uhhh not really, Luna said that a mage stun aoe everyone and they all died there and then... sooooo not quite. yet

than we apply the stun discussion we was doing in all the classes :3

[KatsuraKujo]

nooooo, not yet lol. Save that

[Holyfrost]

If we were to remove a few buffs from cleric, let's say, 12 buffs to 6 buffs or 3 (i'm perfectly fine with it), then the cleric should be given a few offensive capabilities. It's defensive side can be upgraded at least. With a proper build, it can withstand a few hits from other players, in cases of PVP.

 

Why not a skill that deals damage and decreases the opponent's mdef, but also decreasing your mdef, but since you are a cleric, your mdef will still be superior. I know there's a skill that decreases mdef of an enemy, but to learn it is to sacrifice a useful skill for a cleric. 

 

Or to get the cleric's def moving a bit more, why not change Mystic Armor from 3 Def per x Intelligence to 3 Def per x Charm? We can go to as far as 3 Defense per 1 Charm, but it might move the cleric's defense from too less to too much.