639 replies to this topic

[schia]

Its only NPC scripts that have floating point problems or maybe it was floating point math, I forgot.

 

makes me wonder how much the server would cry at the extra calculations needed if we add in a cooldown check for potions at a 0.1 second cooldown for potions.

[schia]

 

The speed isn't the issue as much as the reactivity

 

please review

 

 

Here's another example

 

<>

 

 

 

 

That sniper is potting way faster than 30 or 40 pots per second.  I don't see how speed of potion spamming isn't an issue.  There is no functional difference between non stop spamming potions vs spamming potions only when you're taking damage assuming both rates are the same.  One person just uses more pots than the other.

 

There is no way you can counter that kind of potting speed no matter how much dps you apply to that person unless you stun/1 shot him.

[squirreI]

You can pot that fast without autopot. Potting speed won't save you if you don't start potting before you're dead though.

[squirreI]

I don't like autopot or nodelay.

 

I remember that woe that the GMs decided to watch, I think it was the juno 3 castle. Several people deserved bans, but I don't think they deserved perma bans.. One owner of an account, that was banned for using nodelay, made another character for woe. When he used that character for one of the following woes, he got banned when he wasn't using nodelay. Eventually, after some complaints, he was unbanned.

 

I think we just need constant enforcement in woe. You can't just do nothing for a year and then come in all strong, giving out perma bans to multiple people. Doing nothing encourages players to make these choices. Banning permanently aggravates people, and that is a problem.

 

The difficulty with autopot is that it is hard to prove without reasonable doubt that a player is using it. I don't think Xellie's first video provided enough evidence. I think the best technique to use is song of lutie though. It should be used on guilds inside of castles when nobody is around (to ensure it doesn't effect the woe). Also if the bonus hp with vit doesn't have a limit, a GM should do this with like 1000 vit. That way an autopot's lower limit probably won't be low enough to avoid the autopot. It would also waste a ton of potions to heal up that high.

 

Nodelay enforcement is more difficult. Unless the character is blatantly standing still and spamming skills faster than it should, you can't really prove it. Some classes are easier to prove than others, and some classes it almost makes no difference if it is used.

 

A constant enforcement system (at least 1 GM checking every single woe) should be a x number of strikes type system with maybe some dynamic attributes. I'll just throw out an idea maybe.

 

strike 1: 7 day ban

strike 2: 30 day ban

strike 3: year long ban/permaban

 

dynamic attribute: after 3 months of not receiving a strike, the player will receive the last strike they have been given instead of the next strike.

 

Just an idea, but definitely better than not enforcing anything for a year and then banning right away.. You need the right balance of leniency and severity.

 

 

I think one of the main reasons the GMs don't want to enforce this is because they don't want to ban people who aren't actually guilty of cheating. Just need means of proving without reasonable doubt.

 

edit: Another idea.. I remember Nostalgia guild leader or someone from that guild getting perma banned (if it wasn't a perma ban someone correct me, this is all information that I've only heard about.) for botting speed pots. Botting is on a different level, but I think it was still pretty harsh and it caused a decent amount of people to quit. Something more lenient makes people learn their lesson and makes them stay. Some might argue that they wouldn't learn their lesson. That is true if things aren't constantly enforced. The increasing severity should also prevent future abuse.

Edited by squirreI, 22 April 2015 - 12:16 AM.

[Xellie]

The difficulty lays in exactly that, you can't efficiently prove it, even with GM tools/lutie. Some people might react fast one one or two occasions. Not consistently. With the ability for a/p programs to be toggles on and off, people would just turn then on prior to an engagement. It's too hard to police well.

 

you can pot ridiculously fast using mousewheel scrolling #Rag101

 

I don't like it because as I've said about 16 million times, I think it makes players bad/lazy and reduces the need for situational awareness.

 

And nodelay is stupid but there are still people on the server who think it's "ok"/allowed because their guildleader/friends gave it to them. (or their guildleader claims it's a "bugfix" lmfao and the GMs don't ban them for it as a result)

These problems start at the top and trickle down I guess.

 

Edited by Xellie, 22 April 2015 - 12:19 AM.

[squirreI]

When there's nobody on screen? And I said do it in castles, but it should also be done in town, when there's actually no reason to pot (do it away from a respawn because people will pot there). The reason I mentioned that it should be done in castles is because that is when some people turn autopot on. I've heard that some of the autopotting programs can be toggled off and on.

 

We're talking about instant reactions. Autopot is very easy to prove if there's no reason to pot.

Edited by squirreI, 22 April 2015 - 12:20 AM.

[Themes]

cool stuff

 

I agree with all of these. The inconsistency is a big problem I feel. Having a GM lutie in the middle of your guild/after you recall would be pretty amusing actually and probably the best way to spot it. However it could also be abused if it wasnt done carefully, especially if you give players an extra strong Lutie. In any case I think everyone would like to see something actually done, it's a shame it's so hard to actually prove that people are doing these things so we wouldnt have to deal with all the garbage that goes along with it.

[Xellie]

When there's nobody on screen? And I said do it in castles, but it should also be done in town, when there's actually no reason to pot (do it away from a respawn because people will pot there).

 

We're talking about instant reactions. Autopot is very easy to prove if there's no reason to pot.

 

If you don't have mp, you might. (in WoE - I pot off the sam spec hp drop btw? Yes I default it sometimes, don't start)

 

But that doesn't change what I said about them toggling it on and off prior to engagements.

 

@squirrel:

 

When I said we sent in solid stuff; it was along these lines:

http://www.twitch.tv/xellie/c/4471085

 

We didn't report since sometimes last year now.

Edited by Xellie, 22 April 2015 - 12:23 AM.

[Rate]

/q2 op stop autopotting

[squirreI]

(in WoE - I pot off the sam spec hp drop btw?)

 

But that doesn't change what I said about them toggling it on and off prior to engagements.

 

Good point on the sam spec. also random gear switches that give hp make it a little difficult.

 

And about the toggling you mentioned, I haven't read everything in the past 2 pages. And I've read none of the first 14. That is a good point as well, and some players will just get away with this because that's pretty much impossible to prove. Toggling provides a decent counter to the constant enforcement. If anything, players that show this suspicious activity can just be watched closer.

[Themes]

Nobody is going to remember 100% of the time, you're going to catch them out sooner or later. Even one slip up should involve punishment enough to discourage them from continuing to do such things.

[squirreI]

@squirrel:

 

When I said we sent in solid stuff; it was along these lines:

http://www.twitch.tv/xellie/c/4471085

 

We didn't report since sometimes last year now.

That is exactly what GMs can start doing regularly for constant enforcement. I can understand that nothing happened, but I'm proposing a gradual change. That is a start.

 

Also, I think negotiability is good.

Edited by squirreI, 22 April 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Xellie]

Nobody is going to remember 100% of the time, you're going to catch them out sooner or later. Even one slip up should involve punishment enough to discourage them from continuing to do such things.

 

"one" slip up is dangerous. what if they were potting an hp drop from gear at that moment? What if they happened to be looking that *one* time?

 

you have to catch them repeatedly. And given the nature of autopot, that is not likely.

 

It's similar with ndl, I have a video of someone right now that looks like they are ndling, but I believe this player would not. (a guildie sent me this video) in which they chain 3 BBs barely even flinching. Before making a judgement I would want to see this player do this many more times in other situations, tho this one looks extremely clear. There are lessons to be learned from what happened to Erick.

[squirreI]

"one" slip up is dangerous. what if they were potting an hp drop from gear at that moment? What if they happened to be looking that *one* time?

 

you have to catch them repeatedly. And given the nature of autopot, that is not likely.

 

Given how instant autopot is, I think it's fairly unlikely that you misperceive a potion used for a gear switch instead of autopot.

[Themes]

I probably worded that a bit harshly, but if a GM spoke to the person and said "Hey look, we've got this quite incriminating piece of evidence that you're doing <thing>, please stop, if we find any more we're going to be taking action against your account" and if it's something super weird like with SNSD (or even that weird renewal DB thing) have them post proof that it's possible with unedited client or whatever. If someones doing it and gets caught out and knows it, how many people are going to keep going? Especially if the GMs are actually harsh about punishments for cheating.

Edited by Themes, 22 April 2015 - 12:36 AM.

[squirreI]

It's similar with ndl, I have a video of someone right now that looks like they are ndling, but I believe this player would not. (a guildie sent me this video) in which they chain 3 BBs barely even flinching. Before making a judgement I would want to see this player do this many more times in other situations, tho this one looks extremely clear. There are lessons to be learned from what happened to Erick.

Can I see it? I think people are falsely accused of nodelay/autopot all the time.

[Xellie]

I probably worded that a bit harshly, but if a GM spoke to the person and said "Hey look, we've got this quite incriminating piece of evidence that you're doing <thing>, please stop, if we find any more we're going to be taking action against your account" and if it's something super weird like with SNSD (or even that weird renewal DB thing) have them post proof that it's possible with unedited client or whatever. If someones doing it and gets caught out and knows it, how many people are going to keep going? Especially if the GMs are actually harsh about punishments for cheating.

 

Mastelas

 

What you're looking at here is the GM team having to test every player individually. I'm aware that more people use ap than I can actually report, or catch. Those who toggle it on/off at the start of a battle will pretty much NEVER be caught.

 

The superior autopotters will win.

 

Warnings are good tho, just like how I had to edumacate the GM team about pnuema and pulse strike, or Hibram and safetywall.

Edited by Xellie, 22 April 2015 - 01:00 AM.

[needmorezleep]

If someones doing it and gets caught out and knows it, how many people are going to keep going? Especially if the GMs are actually harsh about punishments for cheating.

pretty much everyone will continue and just make a new account or have a guild leader just hand them a new account all fully funded. also some people are dicks like to pretend they have autopot running to mess with the awful staff.

Edited by needmorezleep, 22 April 2015 - 01:01 AM.

[Rate]

delete god pieces if ap found in your guild during woe

[Xellie]

delete guild and ban leader for 3 months with all gods on if leader found cheating.

 

Because guildleaders set the tone

[Tribe]

delete guild and ban leader for 3 months with all gods on if leader found cheating.

 

Because guildleaders set the tone

 

Why stop there?

 

delete guild and ban leader AND also reset the server. That will learn them good.

[Inubashiri]

Be nice if you could ban X person caught autopot'ing from using any restorative items....I can dream....

[Xellie]

if you could find a way to inflict critical wounds level 5 on them that might work

[Necrohealiac]

% healing items would still work no?

[Xellie]

Yup, and I'd love to see them upkeep potting nothing but yggs/ales long term