77 replies to this topic

[faku1810]

Today I was levelling up from ML26 to ML27 and since my head is so hard that I still didn't give up I saved the stats values on my caracter window before and after my level up and the result was the following one:

ML26 ----- ML27

HP 29580 29623

SP 13732 13732

G. Attack 1659 1659

Pattack 1389 1389

Attack speed 1,01 1,02

Cast speed 9,19 9,13

Haste 36,7 36,47

Vigor 38,69 38,44

Critical 29,06 29,06

Defence  76,07 75,89

Parry 29,13 29,13

 

I see an incease of HP (less than 100 but still good), an increase on weapon speed, a decrease on haste, cast speed, vigor, defence.

So the formulas or are wrong or the "fixed values" are not so fixed and since them formulas are from Njoror I'm more incline to think the second one.

I'll redo my question: How does "fixed" values change regarding to levels? once we have that we can substitute them values on the formulas and see how much a level gap between monsters and players will affect us. Will the vantages outcome the disadvantages?

 

I edited slightly the quote to make it easier to read... Let's see... let's start with the obvious, your "decrease" in defense, isn't a decrease at all. It simply says that against Monsters Level 77, your defense is 75,89%; but against Monsters Level 76 it STILL is 76,07%, just apply the formula and you'll see it doesn't change. Because the only variable that matters there is the "AttackerLv" (since your raw defense didn't change just for leveling up, unless you applied the stat points before noting your values).

 

Now, you didn't include your raw defense so I'll assume it's somewhere between 11220~11227. Then the defense formula i listed in the previous post would be:

11222 / (11222 + 870 +  76 * 35) = 0,7607

and

11222 / (11222 + 870 +  77 * 35) = 0,7589

 

So, the formulas didn't change at all, except the level. And since the formula uses an Enemy level, it means that your defense rate against a particular enemy is solely based on how much raw defense you have. So as Toni said, if you have 3 characters with Osiris gear, with the same raw defense but different individual levels. When attacked by an enemy they'll have the same Defense rate because the formulas applied are the same for the 3.

 

You also proved that the Critical doesn't change at all as I said in my previous post. So, since the Defense formula was made pretty clear by now, and the Critical that you brought up is shown to not change either... What else are you concerned with? That characters need to put more effort to keep a high Vigor/Cast Speed when leveling up? Because considering we can get more stat points when leveling up, and from the gear as well, it makes sense that the % goes lower.

 

The formula for Vigor Rate that I learned from Arbalist is  Vigor / (0.005 * Vigor + 0.2 * Char Level + 10). Now, it took me a while to figure out, because you didn't include your raw vigor, but it probably was 1209, so...

1209 / (0.005 * 1209 + 0.2 * 77 + 10)  =  38,44%

and

1209 / (0.005 * 1209 + 0.2 * 76 + 10) = 38,69%

 

You can do it in a calculator and see they work. As you can see, the "fixed values" didn't change at all, only your level did. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

If you're still wondering where the fixed values come from... All I could say is "probably a lot of testing done", because I don't know how they got them, but they work.

 

But if you want to still argue about formulas, for example, saying that I conveniently chose values with which the formulas work, then you should include all the proper values, so I don't have to try the same formula over and over again to calculate the raw values myself. Plus, I also tested them with my own chars to see the differences and whatever I said here, applied to them as well.

Edited by faku1810, 11 June 2015 - 06:15 PM.

[Greven79]

Let me transform the formulas, shorten them and remove some brackets:

You can also calculate the value needed to achieve a certain rate (see Value).

 

General formula:

 

Rate     = MaxRate * Value / (Value + LevelAdj * Scale)

Value    = (LevelAdj * Scale) * Rate / (MaxRate - Rate)

 

LevelAdj = (1.00 + 0.02 * (DefenderLvl - AttackerLvl) )

 

Critical // Parry:

In both cases, Scale is 2000 and MaxRate is 50%.

If the attacker and the defender have the same level, LevelAdj is 1:

 

Rate    = 50 * Value / (Value + 2000)

Value   = 2000 * Rate / (50 - Rate)

 

Cast Speed // Haste // Vigor:

In all these cases, Scale is still 2000. but MaxRate is 200% and AttackerLvl is 0.

It wouldn't make sense if these values were dependant on an enemy.

 

Rate    = 200 * Value / (Value + (1.00 + 0.02 * Level * 2000))

        = 200 * Value / (Value + 2000 + 40 * Level)

Value   = (2000 + 40 * Level) * Rate / (200 - Rate)

 

Defense:

This is slightly different. The MaxRate is 100%, but the LevelAdj and the Scale are a bit different.

 

Rate    = 100 * Defense / ( Defense + 870 + 35 * AttackerLvl)

Value   = (870 + 35 * AttackerLvl) * Rate / (100 - Rate)

 

In your character screen, it's assumed that the opponent has the same level you have.

Edited by Greven79, 19 June 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[Shinyusuke]

Finally I'm starting to understand how these things works 

so since my parry is 2791 at ML27 to the same level the rate will be 29.13%

instead against a lv80 boss it will be 28.42%

instead if i was an ML20 i would have 26.88%

a difference of  2.25% in the shances to parry

In the def i still don't understand where the opponent level is put probaly you deleted it since it wasn't the matter.

 

- Now i want point out the formulas previously mentioned abou defence:

  defence % decrease as you level up in the meaning that you will have less damage reduction against a monster of your own level

  this means that an ml30 fingthing a boss lv80 will display less defence of a ml20 on the caracter page buit it will be the real defence you have against that boss

  instead the ml20 value need to be downscaled using the level difference what I'm asking since ages is how do I have to downscale it?

  Actually seems like the 2 aspects compensate eachother so in the end an ML20 and an M30 will have exactly the same damage reduction against that boss.

 

-The damage output is fixed or can vary insignificantly:

  for example a meele class at ml30 has 50 more stats points that can put in STR and get 5 more damage points out of an average damage of 300-500 with a normal attack

 

-The other stats that remain the same

  Hit

  Critical

  Dodge

  will be affected as parry so this will be a vantage for the higher level player

 

-The other stats instead that decrease with level do not depend on the opponent level:

  Attack speen

  Cast speed

  Haste

  Vigor

  This means that levelling up process force the player to become weaker in the 4 above aspects

 

In the end we have some skills that seems to compensate eachother some that make you weaker and some that make you stronger while levelling.

so actually since between ML20 and ML30 there are no new better gears seems that actually levelling up don't change the overall power against the same lv80 boss

 

but i still have some doubts:

-is the defence system downscaling with the opponent level as it downscale with the player levelling as a point they compensate eachother?

-is it true that lv80 bosses defence is near the cap? in this case the upscaling of the defence against a lower level would be useless and it's what i used to affirm that the

  damage output differences are insignificant, if not it need to be checked.

 

Anyway all this arguing is based on a simple but really wrong thing in the game

gears for ML21, ML25 and ML27 are not better that ML20 Osiris gears and this bring a completely absence of gear progression.