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Are Knights-Paladins-Dragoons still good ?


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#1 Novol1ne

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 07:16 AM

I stopped playing Dragonica at 2011. I played a knight and at this time knights were very overpowered. So my question is , are they still good in pvp and pve ? Thanks :)
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#2 Sterkie

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 07:28 AM

There was a nerf for the blockrate and in pve and the skill Spin It Bear now has a cast time
Nothing else changed for Dragoon in pve
I don't know about pvp but I guess nothing changed
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#3 Novol1ne

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 07:33 AM

There was a nerf for the blockrate and in pve and the skill Spin It Bear now has a cast time
Nothing else changed for Dragoon in pve
I don't know about pvp but I guess nothing changed


Oh ok because i dont know what i should play, shadow sentinel or dragoon...
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#4 Nobbye

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 08:30 AM

I would say dragoons are still very capable in pvp and pve, they just arent OP like in the old times.
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#5 Coolsam

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 09:37 AM

I honestly don't know why it's such an unpopular class. PvE wise you have many good skills and damage, your chain-stuns and cooldown reduction are god-like for both dungeons and F7 for leveling, and plenty of super-armor allows for safe fighting of huge mob packs without fear of being hit and knocked down repeatedly.

 

PvP wise; Spin-It bear nerf isn't gonna destroy your chances. You can still catch relatively easy with crosscut and you have super armor for both countering and escaping combos. Your skill-combos are easy to learn and perform and you do reasonably well. However currently the popular classes PvP are extreme ground-based comboing and damage ones. Or they just do everything the Dragoon does but with better advantages.

 

Bandit-Rogue-Savage for example is referred to as the "New Dragoon" due to it's large number of super-armor, easy comboing for both air and ground, and also benefits from chain-stuns and flinches.


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#6 SoulSight

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 03:32 PM

To CoolSam : After a few battles with you and other 200 elimination matches, I realized that Dragoon is quite short-handed (almost the shortest) and also slow movement which are disadvantages. Hopefully I get the wings and Hermes helmet to gain the speed.


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#7 Agitodesu

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 04:33 PM

Sam thinks I'm annoying on my dragoon np.


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#8 Coolsam

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 07:30 PM

To CoolSam : After a few battles with you and other 200 elimination matches, I realized that Dragoon is quite short-handed (almost the shortest) and also slow movement which are disadvantages. Hopefully I get the wings and Hermes helmet to gain the speed.

 

Dragoons were only "short-handed" because a lot of their most annoying factors are restricted in BSQ's/EW or were nerfed hardcore;

 

-Time Reverse: Okay a normal PvP room this is allowed. But many a Paladin-Dragoon admit that things would be much easier with it unrestricted.

-Spin-it bear: While it's nerf was to prevent an infinite air-lock (And I mean downright infinite. The skill had a vertical reach that was insane.) it was one skill that made their already strong selves even more powerful.

-Block Rate: It's rework was just strange. Aside from maybe canceling a lethal flinch the new block system had little to no pro's and more con's.

-Barricade: Level 5 Slow Heal + Infinite, Unable to be canceled super armor. Need I say more?

 

Also about movement speed. You have Aerial Smackdown as a good Super-armored gap closer but Heirloom Bone Dragon was your only viable movement speed set outside IM equips. But 81+ PvP is all bout that Galaxia.

 

Sam thinks I'm annoying on my dragoon np.

 

I haven't fought a dragoon in ages. So I don't recall.


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#9 SoulSight

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 02:40 AM

Dragoons were only "short-handed" because a lot of their most annoying factors are restricted in BSQ's/EW or were nerfed hardcore;

-Time Reverse: Okay a normal PvP room this is allowed. But many a Paladin-Dragoon admit that things would be much easier with it unrestricted.
-Spin-it bear: While it's nerf was to prevent an infinite air-lock (And I mean downright infinite. The skill had a vertical reach that was insane.) it was one skill that made their already strong selves even more powerful.
-Block Rate: It's rework was just strange. Aside from maybe canceling a lethal flinch the new block system had little to no pro's and more con's.
-Barricade: Level 5 Slow Heal + Infinite, Unable to be canceled super armor. Need I say more?

Also about movement speed. You have Aerial Smackdown as a good Super-armored gap closer but Heirloom Bone Dragon was your only viable movement speed set outside IM equips. But 81+ PvP is all bout that Galaxia.

Your point is really strong admit. However, it's just way way back to when Dragoon wasn't nerfed. Let's go back to reality.
- Spin it bear : Spin it bear has infinite vertical range. It's a good reason to prevent an infinite air-lock but inherently, Dragoon can do ground-lock so they are still locking as well. So what's the point here? I agree that Time Reverse Aura will handle it but if you look at it technically, comparing with Time Reverse Aura on and the old Spin It Bear, the casting speed of old Spin It Bear is faster. It does not have to go through the Aura system, calculate then "react". It's easier to know and control the "research" when you turn on the sound and disconnect the network. My observation : With old Spin it bear, when you disconnect the network, you can still completely cast spin it bear, just the fact that the bear is not summoned; With new spin it bear (of course Time Reverse Aura is on), when you disconnect the network, you cannot cast spin it bear, you just keep charging the energy, so it has to go through the aura then you are able to summon. This slows down the casting speed and Dragoon just lost that golden moment.
- Block Rate : I kind of don't understand why it used to block a lot even though a lot of buffs work on BASE, not FINAL stat. But now it's ridiculous when sometimes it does not block effect.
- Barricade : Now there is elemental damage, barricade does not resist elemental damage then who worries if they are highly defensive but no elemental resistance? I really don't mind of superatmor. I can imagine that using barricade, interrupting a line of fire, I never think that a dragoon can survive. Elements have made this difference! I don't know if you used to play dragoon but every time you use barricade, you just have ONE slow heal, not infinite but who minds when they have 2 healing skills?

Edited by SoulSight, 23 September 2015 - 02:52 AM.

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#10 ohsnap

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 12:08 PM

Your point is really strong admit. However, it's just way way back to when Dragoon wasn't nerfed. Let's go back to reality.
- Spin it bear : Spin it bear has infinite vertical range. It's a good reason to prevent an infinite air-lock but inherently, Dragoon can do ground-lock so they are still locking as well. So what's the point here? I agree that Time Reverse Aura will handle it but if you look at it technically, comparing with Time Reverse Aura on and the old Spin It Bear, the casting speed of old Spin It Bear is faster. It does not have to go through the Aura system, calculate then "react". It's easier to know and control the "research" when you turn on the sound and disconnect the network. My observation : With old Spin it bear, when you disconnect the network, you can still completely cast spin it bear, just the fact that the bear is not summoned; With new spin it bear (of course Time Reverse Aura is on), when you disconnect the network, you cannot cast spin it bear, you just keep charging the energy, so it has to go through the aura then you are able to summon. This slows down the casting speed and Dragoon just lost that golden moment.
- Block Rate : I kind of don't understand why it used to block a lot even though a lot of buffs work on BASE, not FINAL stat. But now it's ridiculous when sometimes it does not block effect.
- Barricade : Now there is elemental damage, barricade does not resist elemental damage then who worries if they are highly defensive but no elemental resistance? I really don't mind of superatmor. I can imagine that using barricade, interrupting a line of fire, I never think that a dragoon can survive. Elements have made this difference! I don't know if you used to play dragoon but every time you use barricade, you just have ONE slow heal, not infinite but who minds when they have 2 healing skills?

you analysis on the pally class is absolutely incorrect in the pvp aspect of the game. Spin It Bear's strongest point is that you can follow it up with a crosscut or stormblade making catching for pally a lot more reliable the whole disconnection mumble jumble makes absolutely no sense.

Your next point doesn't even connect besides absolute def rate which has been a myth to all of us in whether this stat actually increases the chance of passive block, your stats do not correlate with block chance at all. If you have lvl 10 shield mastery and lvl 5 parry your block rate is a flat 43-47%. It's all in your skill build.

Barricade gets you out of nasty debuffs like priest's mud or burns or a sentinel's netbind and it counters fighters from connecting combos after ghost fighter


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#11 SoulSight

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 01:05 PM

Hopefully you have enough SP to skill that much!
And yeah, nasty buff...then what? You just keep turning barricade to escape and those opponents don't chase you? 30s cooldown is not like 5-2s cooldown.

40% block? Oh, why don't you try making a Dragoon with 40% (just 40%) block then see the difference.

And let's not say whatever thing in the past. Look at the reality at this moment and 

it's such an unpopular class.

It's a disaster! Dragoon used to be a very popular class. I wander around, I can even remember in my mind how many dragoon players there are. I agree that dragoon class deserves to be nerfed but...after that, the result went too far from expectation! At least there must be around amount like Ninjas.

If you feel Dragoon so powerful, try making a Dragoon and join the battlesquare.

 


Edited by SoulSight, 23 September 2015 - 01:51 PM.

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#12 StormHaven

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 04:54 AM

Dragoon's are unpopular now because for the most part people couldn't handle going from My-newborn-old-can-play-this-and-win to I actually need to learn how to play PvP. the very few that stuck around are the ones that can still dominate almost anyone regardless of skill restrictions.  The funny thing is Dragoon's had a lot more restrictions during PvP tournaments than they do in PvP now, but they were still considered a  top pvp class for them( but old block rate+spin it op).
I personally still rank Dragoon's in the Mid to High tier for PvP and mid/low tier for PvE(only every other class besides Fighter and Ninja has larger AoEs+Faster animations for mob clearing)


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#13 SoulSight

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 05:20 AM

Ya, see how powerful they are in the battlesquare and EW... Sentinels seem more unpopular than Dragoons but my perspective in pvp, sentinels are even way better than dragoons...
Oh oh oh go back to topic, I rank dragoon in mid tier for pvp and mid for pve.
The thing that makes change is element. Don't forget that.
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#14 Coolsam

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 07:56 AM

Ya, see how powerful they are in the battlesquare and EW... Sentinels seem more unpopular than Dragoons but my perspective in pvp, sentinels are even way better than dragoons...
Oh oh oh go back to topic, I rank dragoon in mid tier for pvp and mid for pve.
The thing that makes change is element. Don't forget that.

 

Dragoons actually benefit from Elements quite well. Spear jab's a good few hits. A nice wall-positioned rolling ground can be insane. Storm Blade + Mega Storm Blade is 12 hits on it's own.

 

Also they're a horrifyingly tanky class if you actually get the extreme resistances up. As they reach the highest defensive values in the game to benefit from 6* resist cards. Also they're a warrior class so their weapons can reach fairly high attack to benefit from 6* attack card's.

 

As Stormhaven said however. Players lost interest because it turned from "Roll you face on the keyboard easy." to actually requiring a bit of skill. Yes they're mid-tier across the board I can definitely agree on that. Also nothing is stopping a player from picking Knight-Paladin-Dragoon and doing well in PvP. You still bring a lot to the table, just not as much as the "higher tiers."


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#15 SoulSight

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 08:46 AM

 A nice wall-positioned rolling ground can be insane. 

 

Also they're a horrifyingly tanky class if you actually get the extreme resistances up. As they reach the highest defensive values in the game to benefit from 6* resist cards. Also they're a warrior class so their weapons can reach fairly high attack to benefit from 6* attack card's.

 

As Stormhaven said however. Players lost interest because it turned from "Roll you face on the keyboard easy." to actually requiring a bit of skill. Yes they're mid-tier across the board I can definitely agree on that. Also nothing is stopping a player from picking Knight-Paladin-Dragoon and doing well in PvP. You still bring a lot to the table, just not as much as the "higher tiers."

I'm kind of convinced about resistance. Rolling ground is a bad choice...really bad choice... I cannot demonstrate this but you can see through youtube videos, i agree that rolling ground brings superarmor but... *ROCKET PUNCH*...

"Roll your face on the keyboard easy" always points at the most popular class - the class brings imbalance and look at the reality...


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#16 Coolsam

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 09:01 AM

"Roll your face on the keyboard easy" always points at the most popular class - the class brings imbalance and look at the reality...

 

That's just how the "Meta" of DS shifts. Players know these Easy to Learn/Easy to "master" classes can bring so much with so little effort aside from gearing and practicing their one-trick-catching. Eventually balance will come around and the tides will change again. Mains of these classes might see a bad nerf and say "To hell with it" and main another class. It's happened before. Many of the downright best Dragoon players were able to tolerate the initial nerfs but changed their mains to become more viable. Because while they're able to perform just as well, they saw that another class will do all that and more AND be harder to kill.


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#17 ohsnap

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 09:07 AM

Hopefully you have enough SP to skill that much!
And yeah, nasty buff...then what? You just keep turning barricade to escape and those opponents don't chase you? 30s cooldown is not like 5-2s cooldown.

40% block? Oh, why don't you try making a Dragoon with 40% (just 40%) block then see the difference.

And let's not say whatever thing in the past. Look at the reality at this moment and 

 

It's a disaster! Dragoon used to be a very popular class. I wander around, I can even remember in my mind how many dragoon players there are. I agree that dragoon class deserves to be nerfed but...after that, the result went too far from expectation! At least there must be around amount like Ninjas.

If you feel Dragoon so powerful, try making a Dragoon and join the battlesquare.

at lvl 85 you have more than enough sp to get the necessities prenerfed pally, also 30 secs of barricade cooldown to take away debuffs and heal up is enough for a mobile class like pally which can spam aerial smackdown, shoulder tackle and use instant bear to disengage. You were talking about prenerf pallies that's why I brought up all these points about prenerfed pallies. I had a max parry and max shield mastery dragoon so I know exactly how broken it was I also had the extra sp for whatever skills I use and max levels on them. But hey I was considered the one of the top 3 dragoons in the server before dragoons were nerfed so please prove me wrong. :3 


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#18 Agitodesu

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 10:51 AM

What is your dragoon name? You have all the rights not to tell, just curious.
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#19 SoulSight

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 03:00 PM

 

at lvl 85 you have more than enough sp to get the necessities prenerfed pally, also 30 secs of barricade cooldown to take away debuffs and heal up is enough for a mobile class like pally which can spam aerial smackdown, shoulder tackle and use instant bear to disengage. You were talking about prenerf pallies that's why I brought up all these points about prenerfed pallies. I had a max parry and max shield mastery dragoon so I know exactly how broken it was I also had the extra sp for whatever skills I use and max levels on them. But hey I was considered the one of the top 3 dragoons in the server before dragoons were nerfed so please prove me wrong. :3 

 

Everything about Dragoon was broken, like i said Dragoon deserved to be nerfed but that was too much! A very popular, i can mean by 90%, became unpopular (10%) in a tic tac of nerfing. So you see this is a balance or still an imbalance? I see this as a negative imbalance, not a positive imbalance.

Chain combo did not exist! The way people played was different. You can turn on barricade to debuff those nasty effects and escape or interrupt their combo so they have to run away. They have no good reason to stand attacking when you're on TANK mode? 

But now, i challenge you to interrupt a line of fire! You can test by pvp but just 1v1. It does not prove everything but you can demonstrate how different is it when a bunch of X spammers were there. What I witnessed was Earth Masters and Destroyers spam X everywhere. Do not forget that chain combo brings mini stun and brings themselves mini superamor...so I challenge you to use superarmor then disable them.

In the while chain combo exists, element exists. Barricade does not support elemental resistance so who cares if you are on tank mode or not?

Also, Dragoon's block WAS NOT actually nerfed. The producers reworked on HOW BLOCK WORKED. Look at ninjas class! People used to skill it 5/5 and now there is no more reason to skill it higher than 1/5!

 

That's just how the "Meta" of DS shifts. Players know these Easy to Learn/Easy to "master" classes can bring so much with so little effort aside from gearing and practicing their one-trick-catching. Eventually balance will come around and the tides will change again. Mains of these classes might see a bad nerf and say "To hell with it" and main another class. It's happened before. Many of the downright best Dragoon players were able to tolerate the initial nerfs but changed their mains to become more viable. Because while they're able to perform just as well, they saw that another class will do all that and more AND be harder to kill.

 

I strongly agree.

 

Elements impact a lot in this case. In my perspective, allow me to go a little bit outside of the topic.

lv40 elemental weapon brings at least 500 damage (no normal damage and resistance involved). This brings the classes with a-lot-of-hits-skills. Take a lv40 rouge as an example (just lv40). Final decision hits 10 times = 5k damage! With only 1 skill, element has brought a lot of damage, not including Upper Screwdriver, Rolling Stringer and Aerial Frenzy. Back to Dragoon, we have Spin It Bear, Spear Jab, Storm Blade, Mega Storm Blade, Ascension Dragon, Dragon Dive, Chain Shield but guess what? It does not mean victims will not be able to get out of combo. These are mid-air attack skills (don't include Spear Jab), with enough movement speed, they escape the combo. It's easy for those who reached lv81. The POS shoulders support a lot of movement speed! Also it's not piece of cake to perform  Ascension Dragon - Dragon Dive - Mega Storm Blade - Cutdown - Storm Blade perfectly. You (CoolSam) know this.

However, everyone knows the reason the existence of element. Element is a complicated case that needs reworking.

 


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#20 Homurasan

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 04:03 AM

[...] became unpopular (10%) in a tic tac of nerfing.

 

Also, Dragoon's block WAS NOT actually nerfed. The producers reworked on HOW BLOCK WORKED.

 

Whatever your 10% are (and I strongly believe you have no idea what so ever of the number of Knights on this server), there are ten lv.60 classes to choose from. 10% would be perfect.

 

As for blocking, it changed from a chance to completely nullify an attack to a chance to lower received damage. I'd like to know how this wasn't a nerf.

Might as well add that the producers didn't change a thing since they indeed produce, and usually don't develop a game.


Edited by Homurasan, 26 September 2015 - 04:04 AM.

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#21 SoulSight

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 05:57 AM

I said 10% doesn't mean literally, it could be even less.

Statically, most Dragoons are low leveled (likely 60, 65, 70) because at higher level, they cannot do anything more than they used to. That's why i see more Dragoons in 6x battlesquare than 8x battlesquare.

Homurasan, I don't know if you have already been to 8x battlesquare...hopefully you understand.


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#22 StormHaven

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 10:02 AM

I said 10% doesn't mean literally, it could be even less.

Statically, most Dragoons are low leveled (likely 60, 65, 70) because at higher level, they cannot do anything more than they used to. That's why i see more Dragoons in 6x battlesquare than 8x battlesquare.

Homurasan, I don't know if you have already been to 8x battlesquare...hopefully you understand.

 

Dragoon's were never ever popular in 8X battlesquare even prior to their nerfs, It's always been Invoker and Evade Land, the 2 things that just crap all over pallies in general back then.

 

Dragoon's have become what Savages were pre-head spin and 4th job, so balanced they don't feel like they bring anything to the table, yet in the right hands(and effort) will roll through most any class with ease.


Edited by StormHaven, 26 September 2015 - 10:07 AM.

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#23 SoulSight

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 10:14 AM

Dragoon's were never ever popular in 8X battlesquare even prior to their nerfs, It's always been Invoker and Evade Land, the 2 things that just crap all over pallies in general back then.

 

Dragoon's have become what Savages were pre-head spin and 4th job, so balanced they don't feel like they bring anything to the table, yet in the right hands(and effort) will roll through most any class with ease.

Does it tell any imbalance when no Dragoon "belonged" in 8x battlesquare?

And i think they struggle roughly early stage (6x battlesquare) so they have no reason to struggle with higher level.


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#24 sean718

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 10:39 AM

Dragoon's were never ever popular in 8X battlesquare even prior to their nerfs,

 

lol. Really?


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#25 SoulSight

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 10:43 AM

lol. Really?

I will say yes based on my experience.


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