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ASPD in renewal


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#1 Clogon

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:49 AM

I'd like this topic to be moved into the renewal feedback. There are a lot of flaws in the Aspd system we have now and the old one kRO just reverted too. I know they (The Devs) are reviewing the ASPD formula since it was in the kRO patch notes. I hope we (players of iRO) also get a chance to give feedback.

ASPD is such an important mechanic of RO however no one tests this indept! Our player base has almost no idea of how it works because the system is so complicated. Its complications only deters players from wanted to test this even more. Anyways here is several information from the short tests I have done:

current kRO ASPD mods:
Spoiler


We here at iRO have the same Unarmed ASPD but weapon penalties are 1 smaller (Bow penalty for Ranger (with 1 or less agi) in iRO is only -8 instead of kRO's -9). We are using an experimental ASPD, AGI and DEX formula which is still unknown. However here are major notes about the ASPD system we use:
  • % ASPD from skills and NPC potions (Awake and etc) uses [200-(stat+weapon and shield ASPD)]*%. ASPD from skills DO NOT stack only the highest ASPD mod is uses (Swing Dance + AR = AR bonus only) and will only stack with NPC potions 9AR + Berserk put = 50% skill ASPD bonus).
  • % ASPD from equips and cards uses [195-(stat+weapon and shield ASPD)]*%
  • Only Dex and AGI of 2 or higher will factor into ASPD. Having 1 or lower will result in the same ASPD.
  • Dex gives almost no ASPD. This is is especially true at high AGI.
  • Every point in AGI gives less ASPD as AGI gets higher.
  • Weapon ASPD penalty decreases as AGI increases (Weapons that lower your ASPD compared to unarmed). This penalty decrease also decreases as AGI.
  • Weapon ASPD bonus decreases as AGI increases (Weapons that heighten your ASPD compared to unarmed). This functions similar to the penalty but uses a different formula. The same AGI will resault in a different Weapon ASPD bonus decrease than a Weapon penalty decrease.


Noticeable flaws of the current system:
[list]
* Weird weapon penalties. Shouldn't the class that specializes in the weapon be the fastest attacker using that weapon? Why do RK attack so slowly with a 2hs compared to a Mace and yet RG's get faster 2h Sword ASPD than RK? Rangers attacking slower with a bow than Hunters AND Chasers? and etc.
* Impossible to get 193 ASPD from AGI alone. This makes Rangers and Thieves' who can mainly only invest into AGI unable to get higher aspd than other classes since they don't have access to the ASPD buffs or gears that other classes have.
* Everyone who invests into AGI/ASPD gear will get similar ASPD (184~187 range) except a select few. Getting any higher requires EXTREME sacrifices or you being an RK. <.<
* RK is the only class that can EASILY get 193 ASPD how ever this is using a Mace (Really a Mace instead of a 2H Sword?).


Why are RK's the only ones who can get 193 ASPD easily? They have:
+30% ASPD skill (2HQ, Frenzy and AR Scrolls)
+20% ASPD potion (Berserk Potion)
+4 flat ASPD increase skill (Fighting spirit) which increases ASPD by 4 at the END of calculations.

As Doddler pointed out in iRO wiki forums, his RK only needs to invest 80 or so base AGI, a mace and those 3 things to get 193 ASPD.

Youtube video

The trick is the Asir Rune (Fighting Spirit), which gives you a flat +4 aspd at rune mastery 10. At 80 or so base agi I could hit 193 with a mace (with AR or Frenzy) and 190 with a two hander (2HQ). You might get better results if you can use celomane juice or whatever its called, the new aspd pots that genetics can brew. You might be able to get away with even less agi when the alcabringer comes out but you'll need a really high upgrade for it to beat mace aspd.

Now try to GET 193 ASPD with your class. Post what was required and your opinions on it.

Edited by Clogon, 29 November 2010 - 09:51 AM.

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#2 Doddler

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:09 AM

You criticize RK, but a 2hq knight was always the easiest class to reach max aspd with. Before renewal an LK could easily hit 190 aspd with frenzy with 1 base agi. Other classes could do it, Sniper could hit 190 aspd, but you needed 99 base agi/dex, stat foods, and pure agi gear (I think it took like 150 agi + 160 dex to get?).

Edited by Doddler, 29 November 2010 - 10:10 AM.

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#3 DrAzzy

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:27 AM

The objection isn't to RK being able to get 193 aspd. It's RK being able to get 193 aspd WITH A MACE INSTEAD OF A TWO HAND SWORD.

And, that rangers have lower aspd than hunter/sniper (due to a higher penalty for using a bow).

The weapon penalties seem chosen almost at random. The weapons that a class specializes in should have the best aspd modifiers for the class, and if they're meant to use normal attacks, they should have the lowest aspd penalty for it.

Edited by DrAzzy, 29 November 2010 - 10:28 AM.

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#4 Kadnya

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:30 AM

I didn't know that ontop of everything we bishops also got the lowest aspd. Gravity loves bishops for sure.

Some penalties loook weird! why would GX turn slower with everything? or why would sura lose aspd with everything but got a nice increase in staffs and two handed staffs? I'm not sure about balance, but it sounds weird in logic xP.
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#5 Emichio

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:34 AM

I don't see why would you want everyone to easily get 193 aspd.

Not all the classes are meant to have 193 aspd.
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#6 HRdevil

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:40 AM

Priest has low starting aspd but they don't have that much of a weapon penalty anyways.Rk's already got aspd nerfed in renewal, but, reaching 193 apsd with a two hander and parry would be pretty damn epic. GX are fast with their katar and dagger and they aren't supposed to be using axes thus the penalty for them being huge.

Only weird thing i see is that Royal guards has more weapon mastery than Rk's.
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#7 Pravin

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:49 AM

I don't see why would you want everyone to easily get 193 aspd.

Not all the classes are meant to have 193 aspd.


In the present scenario, its tough even to get 190 aspd for rangers. Even with 120 base agi ( for which I had to sacrifice a lot of other stats ), sniper goggles, agi food, and agi equips, it was too tough to just get 190 aspd, forget 193 aspd. I think its fair we readjust the modifiers to make it atleast easy to get 190 aspd. Although 193 aspd should be tough, but it should not be impossible to get, especially for an aspd class like rangers. In the current scenario, it is close to impossible to get it on rangers. Even if we get the ranger balancing patch, rangers not having high enough aspd to match other classes seems to be a bit odd.
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#8 Clogon

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 07:34 PM

The thing I don't like about the current system is that:

1) Investing into AGI will not get you Max ASPD unless you invest into 220+ AGI. Even if, in pre RE, LK's can get max ASPD easily, other classes can get max aspd too without have to sacrifice an arm and a leg.
2) Dex doesn't give any noticable ASPD at all. If you have high AGI, getting 100 dex won't give you any ASPD at all.
3) Weapon penalties seem to be chosen at random. Why are RG's (the defensive class) better than RK's at using every weapon except the 1h Spear (one of RG's Main weapons).
4) Everyone has the same aspd. Only RK can easily get higher but this is with a Mace instead of a 2h Sword! There is no big range difference in ASPD anymore. Just investing into 80 ASPD using NPC potions will get you into the 180 ASPD range. 80 AGI is almost no cost to 3rd classes which can get 100 of several stats easily. The difference in 80 AGI and 120 AGI is A LOT of stat points but it only yields like a few ASPD.

@Jaibuu:
I don't want EVERY class to get 193 easily. However I do want Agi classes who invest into 120 Base AGI be able to get in the 190+ range with self buffs and 193 with party buffs or a some other sacrifice but not extreme ones like getting 220+ AGI and 180+ Dex on a Ranger using Sniper goggles.


I personally like the current kRO ASPD formula much better. It FORCES ANYONE who wants ASPD to get AGI. Due to it's linearity, the Attack per second is Exponential so it was worth getting 120 AGI. And this created a BIG ASPD gap between classes that did invest into AGI and those that didn't, which if perfectly fair. Doddler argues that this isn't good since AGI works as good defensive stat too. However you NEEDED to get 120 base AGI to get good ASPD. the difference of ASPD between 100 and 120 base AGI was so high that it was worth sacrificing 440 stat points.

However it is not without its flaws. Current kRO formula also made % Skill and NPC potions FULLY affected by AGI. Unless you invest into AGI, 2hq, AR and etc., even NPC ASPD pots) did NOTHING. If you didn't invest into AGI the buffs and skills were useless to you. Last time I check 2hq 10 is a major prerequisite. Not to mention the stupid Weapon mods above that makes no sense!



What I am hoping for in the new ASPD system:
  • AGI ASPD formula similar to the current kRO system to create a vast gap between players that invest heavily into AGI (120 AGI) and those that don't (100 or lower). Currently getting 120 AGI over 100 is only 1 or 2 ASPD difference in the 180's range which is only a 16% increase in DPS at most.
  • DEX giving noticeable ASPD.
  • Weapon mods that MAKE SENSE like the some from previous kRO Sakray testing ASPD system. Rangers for example had the best Bow ASPD but some still didn't make sense like RG's -14 2h Spear ASPD.
  • % ASPD Skills and NPC potions are not completely useless unless you invest into AGI.

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#9 Wazza

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:44 AM

I don't even understand why they changed it so heavily from pre-renewal in the first place. If you had the right gear you could get close to 190 on virtually every class (Provided you had Bless/Agi), those that couldn't you had some extra alternatives to help you get there. Back then if you invested heavily in it, at least you got rewarded.

But 440 status points for 1 aspd is a bit stupid. For most classes you may as well leave Agi at 80 or so.
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#10 nicoy

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:21 AM

well im an agi rk.. i can achieve 193 aspd wwith 2h sword.. so i dont have to use mace or do berserk..
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#11 Clogon

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:27 AM

well im an agi rk.. i can achieve 193 aspd wwith 2h sword.. so i dont have to use mace or do berserk..


You do know that 2hq is the same thing as Frenzy right? And of course you can get 193 ASPD on an AGI RK. Not only are you an RK but you also invested into AGI... Now try to get 193 ASPD on a different class. <.<
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#12 SisterGoat

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:31 AM

Is 193 is the cap or is it possible to get up to 195 or even 199? I wonder how fast a TKM can get with all the right stats, buffs, skills, and equips.
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#13 IronFist

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:39 AM

dude a blacksmith could reach 190 atk speed easier then a knight with medals...

now i doubt i can even reach 190... and about the weapon pens, hows a 2h axe like fists but a dagger or sword drops my speed buy -7 -9 compared
this needs to be edited LOADS and Rune Knights are an allround class howcome they are the only class with 2.5k hits at 193 atk spd with 10k critss every so often....

my ranger does 1k per crit about 20% chance to add a 4k hit from warg and a 10% chance for a 1.4k-3.2k hit... for a pure dps ranger im overshadowed buy a fken knight whos got 10 more atk spd then me at the same level

what can i say other then runes are overpowered... runes should be usable by all classes
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#14 SamuelAdams

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 02:43 AM

Oh wow...
Shadow chasers get less of a bow penalty than anyone else? O.o
Very odd...
Now I want to make a bow shadow chaser and ditch the ranger idea... :p_devil:

Edited by SamuelAdams, 30 November 2010 - 02:44 AM.

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#15 Brindizer

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 05:13 AM

Is 193 is the cap or is it possible to get up to 195 or even 199? I wonder how fast a TKM can get with all the right stats, buffs, skills, and equips.


My TKM got nerfed to bits. I used to have 190 all the time, but now Shadow only gives around 2~3 ASPD, and books have a large penalty. Even without a shield I only have 183. I haven't tried the Stellar buff, but according to my stats it'd only give me around 5 aspd, leaving me at 188. Not being able to go higher than level 99 really cripples any potential that might have been there.
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#16 Brindizer

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 05:16 AM

It is my personal belief that a "Mastery" type skill should reduce the weapon penalty for that particular weapon. For bow users, that skill could be Vulture's Eye.

That would improve aspd across the board for the most part. Not that level 10 of a mastery should completely remove said penalty, it should only lessen it. By how much isn't for me to decide.
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#17 cRoc

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 06:25 AM

i think it is perfect for Hunter Classes not to be able to reach 193 easily, they are ranged attack you know...
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#18 Clogon

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 09:46 AM

i think it is perfect for Hunter Classes not to be able to reach 193 easily, they are ranged attack you know...


Ranged attack that does :p_devil: damage. I'd love to see you try to get to 150 using a Bow. As the current situation stands, the faster the Hunter class stop using the Bow the better they get.
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#19 SisterGoat

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 04:15 PM

My TKM got nerfed to bits. I used to have 190 all the time, but now Shadow only gives around 2~3 ASPD, and books have a large penalty. Even without a shield I only have 183. I haven't tried the Stellar buff, but according to my stats it'd only give me around 5 aspd, leaving me at 188. Not being able to go higher than level 99 really cripples any potential that might have been there.


Wow, that really sucks. I know there are books that give you 5% more aspd, but that probably wouldn't be very noticeable either. I've been going bookless to get a faster proc rate for kicks. Sounds like Shadow needs to be buffed, even with a better apsd formula.
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#20 Krispin

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 04:54 PM

The objection isn't to RK being able to get 193 aspd. It's RK being able to get 193 aspd WITH A MACE INSTEAD OF A TWO HAND SWORD

thisthisthisthisthisthisthis

What.
The.
Hell.

It should not be easier to reach higher aspd's with a mace rather than a two hand sword on a knight.
One and two hand swords had the same aspd modifier on the knight class pre renewal because a big part of two hand swords was the aspd.
Maces had garbage aspd on the other hand, and it made sense because most swordies have never even touched a mace and have never had a reason to.

Now maces and one hand swords have the same aspd on knights and both are faster than two hand swords without two hand quicken.
This also means that mace knights with adrenaline rush and the less popular soul linked one hand swordies have faster aspd than two hand swordies.

Why would you take away the two-hand knight's advantage over the one hand knight?
The aspd.

[edit]
Just read that chart about aspd modifiers and classes, and I'm just dumbfounded.
One hand and two hand sword aspd actually gets WORSE as a RK?
Yet mace stays the same?

Who decided on this crap?
That's just.... so stupid.

Edited by Krispin, 30 November 2010 - 05:04 PM.

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#21 KaiEX

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 12:33 PM

Guys, I've read pretty much all of this and it just made me laugh out loud.... Seriously... You guys, complaining about RKs not reaching some speed...
FOR puppy's SAKE I'm playing as a GX (non-VIP) and I have 120 Base Agi. Yeah, I sacrificed pretty much everything and without any buffs my ASPD is barely 182.
That's right the "fastest" class is not only slower than a brute like a Rune Knight, but also than some auto-cast Sage classes.
That's not even funny. I also have nearly 90 Dex which is also not doing anything. The Deadly Poisons are an incredible pain in the ass to make and it's not even that big of an increse.
Also, the ASPD class, the Sins can't even use Berserk Potions... Why? I had to call 4 friends, who used Gentle Touch Reverse(for aspd/attack), the Maestro's Aspd song, a Priestess giving me Agi Up, use an Awakening Potion and wear equips adding at least 1 or 2 Agi per piece.
And guess what, not even that is enough, my Aspd didn't even hit 190, it was just 189 with all that.
You're complaining about RKs? Look how f***ed up the GX is. Even the stat modifiers are crap.

Yeah, try complaining after reading this. We're not even the best at breaking Emps anymore. A frenzied RK can do it faster. I would really love for the GX to get a fair deal and become some pathetic class no one wants to play.
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#22 DrAzzy

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 02:14 PM

Yeah, try complaining after reading this. We're not even the best at breaking Emps anymore. A frenzied RK can do it faster. I would really love for the GX to get a fair deal and become some pathetic class no one wants to play.


First off, why the hell are you necroing an 8 month old thread? Look at dates before you post. This thread was mostly posted right after renewal came out, well before people had seen how things played out in practice.

Secondly, no, an RK isn't faster, just put on the +9 KVM katar (this is considered basic gear for GX now) and a snake hat, and you're the second best breaker. I've hardly ever seen an RK frenzying on the emp, if ever, in renewal. Why aren't you complaining about the fact that a lvl 100 maestro with no agi and a berzerk guitar and snake hat outbreaks you?
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#23 Noumi

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:22 AM

What do u mean by necroing a thread??

And how come nobody mentioned anything about Atroce Card? As long as your char hits 186 aspd, Atroce card will turn in to 193

Bow rangers don't depend on their bow for damage. They depend on their Warg for DPS. Untill 14.1 comes in where you can camo and arrow storm with the white Wing set, the best way to go for a bow ranger is High ASPD/LUK/CRIT with like a 1 in 3 chance for your Warg to auto atk. Something like 120 AGI and 100 LUK. With a sniping suit with Venatu Card, Your free Sniping goggles [Slot Arc Angeling if u have it?], 2x Dancing Dragon Bradium Brooch, +9 Garment (Valk Muffler preferbly) with Green Maiden card, and a +9 Elven bow with well..... Atroce Card hopefully LOL.... If not archer skel will suffice. You get 186 aspd with awakes only. No 20 agi food or AB buff or watsoever needed. and your crit is 90+ almost reaching 100. Once ur Atroce effect triggers, you will be doing 7 hits a second of 1.5K Crits using the right arrow, with your Warg attacking at least 2 times in 1 second for an additional 8K+ damage. Thats like 20K damage in 1 second :rofl:

Edited by Noumi, 05 August 2011 - 08:23 AM.

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#24 DrAzzy

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 09:57 AM

necroing, as in, necromancy, raising the dead. This thread was dead, and should have been left that way.

Suggesting an MVP card as the solution to a game balance issue is not a reasonable suggestion, as there are only a handful on any given server, and simple math tells you that well under 1% of players will have them.

Edited by DrAzzy, 05 August 2011 - 09:58 AM.

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#25 Noumi

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:00 AM

Well they were arguing that it was IMPOSSIBLE to hit 193 for non RK chars. I'm just pointing out the fact that its not, as long as u can afford the card :rofl:
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