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#1 Dragonlark

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 01:20 PM

Hello Roserians!

 

As many of you probably know, discussing third party programs on the forums is not allowed. However, we would still love to get your input if you have any suggestions regarding preventative measure to stop players who are using these programs or macros from being effective in the game. So we have created this thread to gather any suggestions you may have.

 

Please know this is not a place to discuss these programs, this is a place for suggestions about preventing their use. 

 

Example: "I would like to suggest a verification pop up window for every hour a person is in game, to prevent players from being able to perform actions without being at their computers."

 

If you do wish to report a specific program, please send a private message to myself or another Community Manager, or submit a ticket with the details to our support team here. Posts discussing macros or third party programs, or promoting them in any way will be removed. 

 

 


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#2 iMatt

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 05:06 PM

I will make the first step here - as an example - of course I welcome more suggestions from other players!

 

Suggestion 1

Global Leveling Chat:

 

The easiest of my suggestions allows players to find other leveling-partners by searching in a global - not on one map limited - chatchannel (on this way new players might also motivate more experiences players to level sidekicks).
 

+ easy to implement

+ easy to use

- huge risk of abuse by spammers (prevention could be a strict abuse = temporary ban - rule)

Suggestion 2

Low Level Dungeons

 

From level 50 (or 100) there should be a flawless flow of dungeons available to allow players leveling in Groups effectivly and fast to level 200 - it is obviously the easiest answer to the boring AoE grinding leveling has become (or always been). Of course this should run through the queuing system so also new players won't have trouble finding entrance into the world of dungeons!

 

+ most entertaining solution if executed properly

+ this will completly negate botting since active playing defeats "Afk-botting" in dungeons by a lot

+ players learn from the beginning the role of their characters, their strengthes and weaknesses and also earn some Valor (?) points to start well into lategame

+ connects players since they have to interact with each other in those dungeons

- time intense to execute (designing/programming might take some time)

- the adjustment of experience rate/difficulty and reward might become tricky and if it ends up being too hard or too easy people will fall back to botting

 

Suggestion 3

 

More and especially more visible questlines
 

Apart from questrewards being worked over to outclass "Afk-botting" one of the biggest factor when it comes to questline leveling is a lack of knowldege of most players when it comes to which quest(line) is experiences/reward effective and which repeatable quest is worth "farming".

As best example I would mention here the World of W******* Expansion Cata****m questlines during the leveling phase (NOT THE RAIDS).

 

What I think about is when certain level-marks get reached players should get a popup compareable to the "hey you can go to Luna now" popup but with the hint of entering area X and talk to NPC Y if he got some exciting adventures for us to explore.
 

+ easy to implement

+ easy to use

+ Players might explore the World of Rose apart from the common AoE grind maps

- the adjustment of experience rate/difficulty and reward might become tricky and if it ends up being too hard or too easy people will fall back to botting

- Players might ignore the popups and continue leveling "oldschool" (turn bot on - go sleep)

 

Overall solution 1 & 3 are in my eyes only mid-term solutions and won't help to evade the time intense rework of leveling in general like in solution 2 by adding dungeons.

Now my statement regarding botting: botting is wrong - everyone knows it is one of the most popular reasons why players get banned and that is in my eyes totally right since botters soak a huge part of the server capacity, but still I don't like the whole anti-botting movement which appeared on forums latly simply because the lack of alternative of AoE grinding for proper leveling.

To me botting should be more tolerated short term wise till proper solutions get implemented (and if it has to be the "anti-afk-popup" so be it.....).

 

Preventention beats reglementation - if bot leveling becomes time/reward-ineffective people will automatically switch to the better way of leveling!

 

 


Edited by VModCupcake, 11 December 2015 - 06:52 PM.

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#3 poligamy

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 10:01 PM

make the server able to notice a certain activity over and over for 20 minutes ; the server will automatically disconect the character . problem solved
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#4 Feuer

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 10:46 PM

The bots would just be modified to pause or use a different algorythm every 15minutes, not taking into account that some people just sit there in the same spot pressing 1-2-3-4 over and over to AoE level. 

It wouldn't solve the problem. 


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#5 EveryBodysHatin

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 12:28 AM

 

Suggestion 2

Low Level Dungeons

 

From level 50 (or 100) there should be a flawless flow of dungeons available to allow players leveling in Groups effectivly and fast to level 200 - it is obviously the easiest answer to the boring AoE grinding leveling has become (or always been). Of course this should run through the queuing system so also new players won't have trouble finding entrance into the world of dungeons!

 

+ most entertaining solution if executed properly

+ this will completly negate botting since active playing defeats "Afk-botting" in dungeons by a lot

+ players learn from the beginning the role of their characters, their strengthes and weaknesses and also earn some Valor (?) points to start well into lategame

+ connects players since they have to interact with each other in those dungeons

- time intense to execute (designing/programming might take some time)

- the adjustment of experience rate/difficulty and reward might become tricky and if it ends up being too hard or too easy people will fall back to botting

 

 

I like this idea because in dungeons you have to be constantly moving ,This alone gives the players for something to look forward to,Instead of sitting in one place pressing the same buttons to aoe over n over, Also it is not easy to find a party unless you have your own buffers or you know some one that will actually will level with you.(It is hard for new players to actually level)


Edited by EveryBodysHatin, 12 December 2015 - 12:38 AM.

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#6 Feuer

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 09:43 AM

I think jumping right into the proposals isn't the way to properly approach this topic.

 

First we have to identify why people are using third party software.

Then we need to discover the features they're exploiting to solve those reasons why they're using the software.

Then after we've done the above we can appropriately solve the issue, with an immediate but also long term solution. 


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#7 iMatt

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 08:16 AM

Push, since it's an important topic -  anyone else got ideas and suggestions, please?


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#8 Negg

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 04:44 PM

there`s should be like a passive skill to all characters like "For not moving(standing still while casting skills) for 30mins or so, you will get auto muted"...then relog and do it again :P


Edited by Negg, 21 December 2015 - 05:01 PM.

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#9 Hellowarz

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 11:49 PM

Hello, I do think this thread is important.
Preventing botting includes discussing why people choose to bot.
As well as why it is advantageous to bot as opposed to just simply not botting at all.
 
The solution will:

Make bots "inferior"

Thus not being a player that is attentively there, is not the best means to any ends.

Also make multi-client less viable

 
Now getting rid of all botting in any game isn't always the most viable option. However the more it is not a rewarding way of achieving anything it becomes less viable in the game it self.
Anyone that then uses it is easily swept up in a ban as they should be.
 
However if we suppose that it literally never is the way to best do anything, then it simply won't be used. Players always do the quickest thing to achieve their end. Not everyone, but certainly the most.
 
With rose on the grind style leveling all botting would be hard to stop, lots of players play the game because of the fact that they like leisurely hacking away while chatting with friends. Many really don't want to do quests, and  just want to *hug* monsters to *sleep* in mass quantities while maniacally cackling at the marvelous genius of their character design.
 
iMatt your leveling chat idea is nice, I like the lower level dungeons being viable. With the implementation of GA it would be silly not to see it ever before reaching 200, like so many do. No one talks about that to new players as being worth while until 200.
 
Dungeons require moving which makes them harder to be a bot in. After all the development time it would be a shame to never see a lot of this content until a character is beyond 200.
 
Many would like to see questing get more love too, which does make it harder to be a bot.

 

 

Class skills and passives are all fun and nice but I do wish we would see a utilization of all of the maps we already have at hand, while more dungeoning would be nice we do have lots of cool maps with neat little corners already to be explored. 
With the game inherently being an exploration of maps and spots for laying to rest weird and cool looking foes in beautiful surroundings. It would be nice to see the best means to achieve an end also be able to be achieved by almost anywhere.
 
Therefore I think it is crucial to focus back on what the game revolves around most in the xp/gathering portion, the mobs.
The mobs give us virtually everything, and thus would be the first thing to come into the sights of wanting to bot. Everyone pretty much agrees that a character below max is essentially useless and nothing matters anyways. ( However later on for perhaps farming reasons it could also be useful...) If you are just starting though, nothing matters until you get 230 for the first time. Or so i've experienced with players playing. Yea there are some bench marks, 50,100,120,130,160,180,200,220,230.
You are pretty much told just to earn money and save it for the end game most of the time.
 
No matter what lvl until max you rely on the mobs for the vast majority of your leveling experience. So the mobs are essentially the leveling experience themselves. 
 
The Mobs:

Spoiler

 
Botting is most discouraged when events require human interaction to best navigate.

 

Randomization of events is a key part of that.
 
For mobs, this really means that it applies to them most over any particular class or player. Thus everyone can experience them essentially the same way. Obviously we have class types and certain mobs are more easily handled by certain classes over others. Sometimes you need a knight :)
 
Having to lure an area that can only be achieved by moving makes it harder to bot, randomization of where far spawns are, goes a little farther.
 
I personally would like to see the focus shift towards almost all mob encounters require a more general (any class) strategy. We have melee procs, and cds and a few other class specific strategies in character building, however since these mostly are always best served by repeating, these aren't strategy that comes into play requiring the player to take notice every encounter.
 
A shift towards some sort of strategy utilized in every encounter, or the most productive encounters for leveling but preferably always. Loot collection, item farming... There are some boss fights that kind of have forms of this in play, in needing to know what next to do. 
 

Spoiler

 

I personally really would go on a single mob in packs that spawn that puts down areas of either good or bad, but the player must react. However like healing above there are ways without needing new graphics for the most part in dealing with buffs and debuffs on players.

Spoiler

All of these ideas aren't as important as the idea that strategy becomes the most rewarding way of doing things. Make sure it gets rewarded, if anything too much at first.

 

It also has to be simple but powerful tools if failed as well, if you are stunned for say 10 seconds while healing. Then heal the mob comes up as a fs cleric. You gingerly heal the mob back to full because you were stunned and could not move.

 

Most of these ideas could just be applied to mobs of a certain type or class, and run even on a fairly low encounter scale and it would drastically change the idea of auto skills.

 

Real strategy to best achieve items in the game and to level in general is the antithesis of a bot.


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#10 achibea

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 07:54 AM

Why not make the other AoE skills like the Mage's AoE where there should be a target atleast. In that way, people cannot use bot/spam/auto skills.  :ani_swt3:


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#11 Cortiz

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 08:15 AM

Why not make the other AoE skills like the Mage's AoE where there should be a target atleast. In that way, people cannot use bot/spam/auto skills.  :ani_swt3:

This wouldn't work since u can use the auto target skill with the aoe's thats how mages auto afk in the first place.


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#12 achibea

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 08:18 PM

This wouldn't work since u can use the auto target skill with the aoe's thats how mages auto afk in the first place.

 

Ohh wow! Never knew about the auto target skill :o


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#13 Feuer

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 09:59 PM

Take out Auto-target skill, make all AoE's require a target. [You could still have self cast AoE, just have it require a targeted enemy]. That would throw a massive wrench in them being able to do it, but it doesn't solve WHY they do it. 


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#14 Hellowarz

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 03:22 AM

I think WHY is one of the key topics to be addressed.

Also no auto target would certainly help a lot, but man I do like my auto target skill lol!


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#15 mhaddy17

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 08:53 AM

Suggestion 1

Global Leveling Chat:

 

I like the Idea. About the spamming, I also think that it will be a problem. What about break them into rooms/brackets? That way I think it will lessen the spamming.

 

For example:

Room       A     1-40  Levels

                B     21-60

                C     41-80

                D     61-100

                E     81-120

                F     101-140

                G     121-160

                H     141-180

                I      161-200

                J     181-220

 

Players have to avoid 20 levels of gap if they want to evenly share experience anyways.

You can only enter the rooms if your level is within those specified level brackets.

Online players can receive messages and I think a blinking notification icon will help if someone leaves a message with same level brackets with you.

 

About leveling on some of the current maps:

Why not make the spawn time of mobs longer? Like maybe some minutes? Depending on the size of the map (Larger map means more monsters/mobs).

I think one reason why players can use bot easily is that it is possible to level up even if they just stay in one spot. They can stay there without worrying that there will be no monsters there soon.

 

But, if that would be implemented, it would mean that:

 

Ø  It is possible that players can wipe out a certain area.

-          I suggest making the monsters a bit tougher so it will take a bit longer to take them out while giving some added experience to compensate for the longer time of defeating them.

-          Or automatically re-spawn the mobs when there are no players around/near the spot.

Ø  And if you are hunting specific monsters for quests, it would be much harder to finish the quests.

-          What about making success chance to obtain quest objectives 100% or just increase it (per kill). Because I tried doing many quests and monsters don’t always give the quest objectives thus making it longer to finish the quests.

-          Or add spots for specific monsters.

Ø  Less mobs less loots

-          I think it’s up to the GMs if they would allow that. I think they can adjust the drop rates :3

 

I think this will get tricky with planet of Orlo because the competition there is high and the mobs occupy their own spots. But I will personally suggest this for Sikuku Ruins and Oblivion Temple, even in Kenji Beach.

I also like the idea to insert some monsters that might endanger the party or a member if they act careless. I think it will help require players to actively respond if they want to stay in the fight (I think Candle & Yigori Ghosts does it somehow).

 

I like the quest in Luna where you have to fight Lunaris Bears. I like some quests in Sikuku Ruins too, because they are repeatable and the NPC is just near the area. You can finish them while doing normal leveling and they help give players additional experience. I like gems as quest rewards, maybe they can add the new gems too. I like refining materials too as quests rewards, although I can’t remember any quest that gives refining materials.

 

Different additional rewards depending on the difficulty of the quests.


Edited by mhaddy17, 28 December 2015 - 08:56 AM.

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#16 iMatt

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:09 PM

sounds awesome to me mhaddy, how about people can read the low level stuff too just not write/reply in that channel? Because, you know there are soooooo many older players in Rose which might have a char stuck in a lower level tier, and when they read that a group needs lets say a tank (if this char is a knight) he could think "hey let's jump on the twinks and help them leveling!".


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#17 mhaddy17

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 06:22 AM

that sounds good, since the thing we are worried about is the spamming.

 

 

Edit:

 

Oh i have to change my mind.. I think one of these rooms will definitely be spammed if we allow that.

Global chat is good for something if become viable for all.


Edited by mhaddy17, 29 December 2015 - 07:52 AM.

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#18 kleberrbs4

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 03:48 PM

in my thoughts we should know why they use bot and then we'll find the problem and difficulties.
come on you are in a party and you're a cleric or wizard or tank etc ... you need to go to the bathroom or get something to eat or drink if you're cleric everyone will die this cause you not to cure it, or all stop and hopes to raise that return to start again at the risk of losing the spot, if aoe character and stop attacking the mobs will accumulate and killed all of the party.
definitely have not seen anyone else rising level of the maps given that we have no new players, we will have new ideas and suggestions for the future, so old players
rather have those that are benefiting from the bot to leave it and go to sleep or work it really is boring the more we have those who are always present there.
before claim for that I was gone and could not afk party, but now there is neither party to ask irony not?

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#19 Feuer

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 10:13 PM

So, here's what I would do, given much 'outside the box' thinking. 

 

AFK Timer.

Not performing movement for 'x' specified time = marked as 'away'

If no movement is detected for 'x' specified time while marked as 'away' = kick to character selection screen.

 

Problems:

Vending. 

Solution:

We have 'player states' already in the game. For example, you can't mount if your player state is marked as 'in combat'. 

Make a new 'player state' you enter while vending. 

If you're player state is marked as 'vending' the 'away' state cannot be entered, therefore, you cannot be kicked to the character selection screen.

 

We have the core system in place for this already, it would require minor code work, but the result could be quite efficient and cause little interference with normal game-play. No captchas needed, no one gets booted while vending, none of those problems. 


Edited by Feuer, 06 January 2016 - 10:13 PM.

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#20 thetrangdamvn

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:02 PM

So, here's what I would do, given much 'outside the box' thinking. 

 

AFK Timer.

Not performing movement for 'x' specified time = marked as 'away'

If no movement is detected for 'x' specified time while marked as 'away' = kick to character selection screen.

 

Problems:

Vending. 

Solution:

We have 'player states' already in the game. For example, you can't mount if your player state is marked as 'in combat'. 

Make a new 'player state' you enter while vending. 

If you're player state is marked as 'vending' the 'away' state cannot be entered, therefore, you cannot be kicked to the character selection screen.

 

We have the core system in place for this already, it would require minor code work, but the result could be quite efficient and cause little interference with normal game-play. No captchas needed, no one gets booted while vending, none of those problems. 

 

How about vending & botting shout?


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#21 Feuer

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:17 PM

I already covered vending above.

Shouts are what they are, and have a cooldown time. Aside from that, you can /ignore, and if the cooldown needs to be longer that is a simple adjustment. 


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#22 Banrukai

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 05:15 AM

I think the solution is very simple. 

Three key things that people have already mentioned:

  • Variable spawn locations ( To prevent people from staying in one spot to AOE all the time, and make predefined parties )
  • Increased Spawn timer
  • Stronger Monsters, Increased EXP reward

These are three ideas I have also thought about, and wanted to suggest, but it was already said. To elaborate more on the monster spawns, I think that the monsters need to spawn in variable places all over the map, instead of in static positions; additionally, I think the spawn time should be varied as well, so that you can't just jump between two known locations, and time the spawn rate.

Additional Ideas:

  • Variable EXP per monster ( This is to prevent people from killing one specific monster, in one specific area. The entire map would be used, instead of specific areas )
  • Logout timer ( As Feuer said ), this would be a very good idea for players that are inactive for too long, such as a leech. I like this idea because it would require ever party member to be active, instead of just standing around and leeching EXP. No more power leveling yourself though, but I don't really see that as a negative. Team play is the point of an MMO.... playing with others... not just yourself
  • Remove Auto-Target Enemy ( as Feuer said ). No explanation needed here, this skill just begs people to make a bot with it.

As for the Chat botters ( Trade chat ), well there is not much to do about them. My idea is this:

  • If player has said the same exact message ( or similar message, with a RegEx compare ) message in Trade Chat more than 5 times within the hour, or half hour, temporarily mute them for one hour.
  • I disagree with making any form of new chat sections, the current system is just fine.
  • Update the very old chat rooms, people can advertise there.

Edited by Banrukai, 07 January 2016 - 05:21 AM.

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#23 arginas

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 05:38 PM

"First we have to identify why people are using third party software."

 

the people that bot include, but are not limited to, People who are not willing or can not put the time in farming or leveling, or just want to do it while they are sleeping, working, etc.

we can not negate (all of) these reasons for botting in any way. people will always (try to) bot!!!! there is no permanent solution like global chat or low level dungeons, because "not the best exp/drops available" is still better than nothing at all.

 

"Then we need to discover the features they're exploiting to solve those reasons why they're using the software."

we could and should discus things like the "target enemy" ability and the lack of reasons to move. we should make it as hard for them as possible.

patching those features/exploits and adding hurdles for them will force bots to be updated, evolve and become more advanced. implement these patches 1 at a time, preferably just after a bot is updated to deal with the previous patch. this will maximize the time during which the game is bot free.

 

"Then after we've done the above we can appropriately solve the issue, with an immediate but also long term solution."

By the time bots are advanced enough to deal with all the patching and hurdles that have been put in their path they will be using custom/modded clients to directly read game data, inject packets and provide very precise input. at this point there are multiple things you can do.

 

Spoiler

 

i would suggest digging into the history of runescape botting. it is very extensive and i'm sure a thing or 2 could be learned. don't reinvent the wheel. moddify it to fit on your own cart instead ;) that said, the extreme resources jagex has poured/is pouring into anti-bot measures are probably not nessecary for this game. the runescape botting scene is/was mostly fueled by people farming and selling ingame currency, and selling leveled accounts. i don't think this will be the case for rose as the item mall is already a sort of goldseller and people mostly bot for ingame benefits. after a google there does seem to be a market for rose accounts/zullies but it is extremely small (as rose's community is relativly small) and nowhere near what i've seen with runescape. i don't think some developer would sacrifice a real job for the low potential income that could come from selling zulie or rose accounts. i think most dev's will give up long before a weekly changed encryption is implemented.

 

 

my thoughts on some suggestions given here:

Spoiler

 

my own suggestion:

Spoiler

 

IMHO, the solution to tackle the current bots has already been provided in this threat and is utterly simple and easy to implement. i suggest it just gets done and then we'll see if something new comes along to start the whole thing over again...

 

to the people here, don't assume something will work based on what current bots can or cannot do, don't asusme anything is not bottable/hackable. just focus on how to force them to update as often as possible and make it as hard as possible to do so.

 

please note that i'm not condemning suggestions that change gameplay. suggestions to motivate people to stop botting and start actually interacting with the game are still very much needed, people that simply bot because they lack the motivation to actually play themselves are a symptome of the outdated and grindy(sometimes boring) nature of rose's leveling experience. getting people motivated enough to stop botting and actually play the game might also lead to new and old players getting motivated to play the game (again) :)

 

p.s.: i'm sorry for the long read and sorry for stating some things twice(if i have done that). i also apolagize for the terrible format and perhaps, sometimes, incoherent blabbering. its late :)


Edited by arginas, 21 January 2016 - 06:54 PM.

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#24 Hellowarz

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 05:35 PM

I would kind of like feed-back from staff about how seriously the goal of no bots even is. The reason I ask is because that changes the kinds of ideas generated. If we think the botting problem is a problem but not game breaking than that is fine, but lots of measures that take a lot of time and investment are not likely what we want then.

 

Summary of my opinion, feel free to flame.

 

Problem: Bots

 

Solution: Intelligence being required for the most lucrative items/events in the game.

 

I mean a bot is literally describing a programmed level of intelligence and/or literally repetition of events. Therefore the antithesis would be non repeated events or non-programmed levels of intelligence.

 

Prevention:  Fine and dandy but does not solve the problem because it is a constant back and forth that any serious bot developer has no trouble winning, sorry but the truth. Unless prevention rises to the level of the preventative measures not being a program in and of itself , or a literal human dealing with bots. Costly and must be updated constantly as opposed to making a "hard" encounter be the source of the good things in the game.

 

 

Oh quick side note on low lvl dungeons, a solution to lack of players is that a dungeon for 100-200 say could be done around a lvl 200 one. Take all the players and let anyone in that range group with one another. Take a look at their stats and translate them to an equivalent amount for that char at say 200. No skills but it allows a super wide range of players to play with one another, and could totally make low level dungeons work. 

 

Auto looter, we could just have some tainted loot occasionally thrown in that does dmg if picked up.

 

Global chat:

a global chat has been tried by many games for just as many reasons and unless you are willing to monitor it 24/7 it will become the channel everyone blocks. aside from that it will not take away the fact that people want to gain exp/zullie while (litteraly) sleeping

 

My only real suggestion on chat spam is a focus shift towards monitoring all the time. The people that are on the most to monitor are the players. I know this will sound crazy but a chat system where people can create chat channels or a few in Junon with one controlled by players buyers/sellers that is monitored by everyone in the system by a simple system of votes.

 

If someone starts to spam, the group puts to a vote taking away someone's ability to spam the channel. That way serious buyers and sellers can keep a private spot for themselves controlled by themselves, instead of the game which will never have a chance to catch trade spammers, unless staff is literally going to monitor it themselves.

 

Make it a vote of only those that do vote, so if a bunch in the group aren't on the ability to take away chat for the channel can happen during times of few players on.

 

Keeping a general trade chat like we currently have for those that have been silenced in the other group or just to keep a free, anyone can talk channel.


Edited by Hellowarz, 02 March 2016 - 09:20 PM.

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#25 Jellp

Jellp

    I made it Off Topic

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 10:21 AM

Make crafting less repetitive and click intensive.

 

Right now, crafting a single item involves clicking twice on two different buttons. This in itself is fine, unless you want to create stacks of something. I cannot be bothered to create 999 items with 1998 manual clicks, I might even rather cut my hands off if I start crafting many stacks.

 

We receive exp for crafting items, that doesn't happen very often in games. So please make it less of an extreme pain to make use of this mechanic, I'd simply suggest a craft all button which crafts slower (1.25?) but automatically. That would decrease 3rd party program botting by quite a lot.


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