Emp's radius: No comment, I feel the latest fix is doing a good job so far. I haven't seen a lot of seige stacking since they are now checked server side. It is already much better than what we had when it was abusable. I couldn't ask for more.
Removing the main gate in Prontera WoE map: Yes, I agree. Because of everything I will say below.
At the current state of WoE: In Prontrea, if the castle, east fort and west fort are hold by the same guild/alliance, defending that main gate means defending 2 forts and 1 castle. In comparison to Morroc WoE map, forts in morroc are reachable by anybody. There is no such advantage even when one guild/alliance holds every forts and castle in Morroc. Why does Prontera get to have the advantage?
I can understand when Prontera was the only WoE map available, the main gate being there was not a problem because every guilds that participate in WoE will be on that one map. If guilds don't work together to take down the main gate they will be all left with South fort to compete. So it was the best interest for everyone to take down the main gate when there wasn't another map available.
Now, we have Morroc WoE available which opens up more options for forts and castles for guilds. This also means attacking guilds can be spread between two maps. The Prontera main gate lost its important status for being "the only option for more forts". It often stay closed and barely touched for the whole WoE hour. While guilds take forts/castle in Morroc ignore Prontera completely because the main gate is shutting out 3/4 of the map's opportunity behind it.
Just look at the huge difference in terms of attacking/defending difficulties if you compare the two WoE maps. Why would attackers want to take the harder way out when there is an easier way. We need to adjust the two WoE maps to make them fair to both the attackers and defenders in order to make both maps active during WoE.
Morroc WoE map have 2 orbs to give attacking guilds a chance to open the back gates that lead directly into the castle. Recalling next to castle emp is available after orb is turned. Making it extra easy to take castle and extra difficult to defend a castle that has a gate open to welcome recallers 90% of the time.
Prontera only have 1 orb and that only open the main gate which is at a distance away from castle. Attacking guild still have to DPS the castle gates in order to get to the castle emp.
Given the limited time we have in WoE, opening the Prontrea main gate and then dps down the castle gate will easily take half the WoE time unless undefended. While there isn't much time needed to open the back gates in Morroc which lead directly to the castle emp, who wouldn't think Morroc is easier?
Morroc Castle have 3 castle gates where two can be opened by orbs. The main castle gate is not far from the map entrance (from point 2).
Prontera Castle have 2 gates, none of which can be opened by an orb.
Again, Morroc castle is much more accessible by any guild weak or strong.
Map & Geography
Morroc: There is no main gate in the Morroc WoE map. The castle front gate that is not openable by orbs can be attacked from all directions. There is no chok point to stop attackers at a narrow spot except at the spawn point (spawn camping is not allowed!). It gives a lot of space for attackers to setup what is necessary to take down the front castle gate.
Prontera: The castle and two forts are behind a main gate. The main gate is far from the map entrance and is located at a chok point. Attacking guilds don't have space to fall behind on or create a setup area because the main gate is facing the the hills/mountains. The very narrow space in front of the gate make defending guilds can heavily focus on seiging that area and push any attacking guild back to the two sides of the hills.
The two sides of the hills leading to the main gate is another chok point where everyone want to attack the main gate (or go to south fort to turn orb) have to walk through those narrow spaces. Again this is disadvantageous to any attackers because no matter how many people they bring, they have to get them pass the chok points which are always being motar spammed and seige spammed (catapult created behind the main gate can hit that far).
Then when it is in front of the Prontera castle gate, the same situationa again, narrow space leaving attackers little space to run around to dodge seige spam. One side of each of the Prontera castle gates are against the hills.
To illustrate the open area of each map in front of each gate, look at the red area on the picture below. It is not hard to see why Prontera is easier to defend and harder to get taken:
To sum it up, a guild or an alliance holding all of morroc forts and castles will have to protect up to 5 spots to secure their castle:
1. protect the orb at west fort.
2. protect the orb at east fort.
3. protect the castle front gate.
4. protect the east back gate.
5. protect the west back gate.
Any of the above protection break will allow attacker direct access into the castle.
A guild or an alliance holding all of prontera forts and castles will split into 2 forces:
1. protect the orb at south fort.
2. protect the main gate.
If any of the above protection break, there is also the left and right castle gates to be the second line of defense.
The design of the Prontera WoE map, to my understanding, was made for Server vs Castle Owner
. So it only make sense BACK IN THE DAYS to give attackers a hard time because it was expected that attackers will out-number defenders. If we think back in 2013, there was only Prontera castle and the map was built around that idea, 1 castle nothing else. Then later 3 forts were added to the map and unfortunately 2 of them happened to be behind the main gate. That wasn't too thoughtful and we are now facing the consequence.
The main gate must have designed to protect the castle and was never meant to protect the forts that were added later. This is the time for the devs to re-visit the difficulties of Prontera WoE map, reconsider and balance the various features. Keeping in mind there are forts now and that there is another WoE map people can go to, Prontera WoE isn't the only game in town.
In addition to removing the Prontrea main gate, I would also suggest removing the two orbs that opens the Morroc castle back gates. It is part of my view of level the playing field between Prontera and Morroc WoE maps. With those two orbs there, we never seen anybody try to attack the back gates of the Morroc castle. The castle is too accessible, it make any defense at the front gate a waste of effort. Compare to Prontera castle, the castle gates must be DPSed down, they shouldn't be opened by orbs.
Hello fellow VCRs and players,
Sorry for being unable to catch up with recent discussions lately.
@Cartian: Much theorycraft, but your comment lacks practicality, and probably experience in WoE as well. If you must say, I would say that you didn't attended enough WoE to get some facts right. And in the December WoE, Prontera first gate gets opened up within the first 5 minutes.
Geographical analysis, I would not speak much about it as this would provide an insight of strategy to rival guild, but I disagree with what you said as you actually missed out MANY points. Prontera may appear to be a steel fortress, but it also has many downsides. If exploited correctly, it is as easy to siege as Morroc Fortress. MF on the other hands, although it seems pretty open, all of Prontera downsides are not in MF. In fact it has plenty of mechanics which players has yet discovered and put into use (or not, since I have discovered it already but haven't put into use).
Back in the old days before there is Orb in South Fortress, people were complaining the Defender has too much of an advantage. I do agree on that, because everyone is locked up at a choke point. The only way to get through to the next line of defense is through breaking the first gate with BRUTE FORCE. And the defender guild could full force focus defense on one spot, which is hard to even focus down as most of the time you get wiped by Siege Weapons AoE, even if you have like 300 people attacking.
Then it came the Orb, which forced the Defender to split their force into two, when the attacker has the option to choose where to attack and only need to focus their force on one side, giving the Defender a huge downside, which is already a big nerf to Prontera's defense mechanism. If it's a fight on par with example of 50 players each side, previously it was 50 vs 50. Now the Defender had to split into two, and became 25 vs 50. That's a big cut in the throat.
Of course, that is the scenario if comparing like to like. I would disagree on this, as what I think is the problem strongly lies with the players themselves, not the map. You can't possibly compare 20 person hitting on 60 person and blame the map mechanic saying "its too advantageous for the defender", or comparing army of Serenia well-geared players against casual Eddga-geared players, as well as comparing an IQ 160 WoE Commander with another IQ 90 WoE Commander, these are elements that got nothing to do with the map design.
As for the "Server vs Prontera" scenario, of course it is not out of the picture. But the thing is, whether is that really the whole "Server's" intention to go all out against Prontera, or not. Therefore it really lies with the players to do what they want. The latest "Server vs Prontera" that I recalled was somewhere in the mid of October, where the other 3 big WoE guilds joint hands to contest us in PF. While the result is that the castle remain defended by us, but we did suffer major losses by losing two forts in PF. Then, probably a side or two realized that the Cons outweight the Pros to go "Server vs Prontera" when they could achieve conquering much more castle or fortresses if they don't. Hence, it's really a matter of choice. Not because it will not happen again, but whether people want to do it or not.
Also lastly, the map design has been reworked many times since its initial introduction, which has been improvised in many ways and balanced now. WoE and PVP is not really about the map design, it is about what others think of you. People hate each other because of the people, and people come together also because of the people. Alliance in order to monopoly the PVP scene is very common, or merely just "working together to achieve common goal" is all due to the people themselves. If someone is doing every single possible action to piss everyone off, or plays dirty and exploit bugs that disgusts others, it is certain that you will be attacked because, well people just dislike you. However if you treat everyone with respect, even your enemies, I don't see why someone sitting at a fort is unhappy about the people sitting in the castle unless they think they're a more rightful owner. Even if we could ally another one of other 3 big WoE guild out there in order to monopolize the whole WoE scene, we still remained as standalone because we clearly know that if we do that, it will surely kills WoE. It also lacks the sense of achievement because victory is gained not through competition, hence we would prefer to do it with our own hands. But it is always up to the guild's decision maker whether to team up or not, or rather, whether they want to work together with this bunch of people or not. Changing a map mechanic or two will not have a drastic change in the situation itself. It is a "MMO" played by humans for god's sake, not a mathematical calculation or chemistry atomic compound.
Just my two cents, Merry Christmas to everyone.
P.S. Edited to remove guild names.
Edited by xkazehanax, 20 December 2015 - 11:31 PM.