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#1 Agitodesu

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 11:00 AM

Do people think this skills should at least have the mechanical function of a savage headspin?

 

As in super armor, but can be canceled with the anti super armor status skills. I find this skill lacking when something random bops you and it cancels it.


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#2 Coolsam

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 11:45 AM

That's a problem these older skills have, a lot of their possible buff ideas got turned into entirely new skills for different classes. Making a same but better scenario. Myrmidon is the best example.

Bears < Infinite Kicking and other twin skill.

Rising Storm < Rolling ground.

Wyvern < Head spin

Really hoping various class balances come with the announced Arcadia update.

Edited by Coolsam, 12 April 2016 - 11:45 AM.

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#3 Precrush

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 12:28 PM

I think that could possibly be too strong, it does have a pretty wide range where it hits. Although the combo you can do from catching with that skill is not really impressive alone.


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#4 Agitodesu

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 12:39 PM

Too strong to be considered on the lowest tier next to warmages. But seriously, what do you think of savages head spin, it's superior in nearly all aspect and the cool down is lower. Not to mention the skill doesn't match the animation which is considered a bug at most. The hit box of wyvern is not movable, yet you can "move" with wyvern. I don't see the point where you can move yourself, but the skills don't follow with you. This has been an issue since the beginning of the myrmidon class.


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#5 Precrush

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 01:06 PM

Ye well that thing is stupid ye. We got so many screw'd up hitbox things in the game. Fixing that and making Wyvern move faster would be pretty good too right?

 

Anyway the argument that another class has a "stronger version" of a skill is not really valid. Classes are have completely different skill set and sometimes different stats. You can't just rip skills out of that context and compare them to one and other. I don't see any value in doing that, you can just look at each skill in the context of their own class and it's needs and that'll be fine. It's fine to have similar skills of differing strength on different classes in my opinion.

 

I dun think destroyers are that bad, it's just that some classes are freakishly strong and they don't get to excel in anything. The dmg calculations we have are way out of wack and every class can be a tank. Those are basically the things destroyers are supposed to be about but it's just messed up. They could use a buff though, just saying a skill with that wide range and long duration is pretty damn strong (like headspin). I dunno I just personally don't like having super armor on skills like that. Maybe it's because I'm a scrub and always fail to stop it, who knows.


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#6 flubsy

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 07:54 PM

1. Cooldown is longer than most skills in game, even lv 5.

 

2. "OL's have high burst dmg", but everyone can out dps it, so it really doesn't.  I mean look at the paladin.  All of their moves have less than 10 sec cooldowns and their dmg is much higher.  This is without time reverse.   What?  Logic? 

 

3. Wyvern is not that strong, the aoe is small.  They can be hit out of it easily.  Also, most myrmidon moves have 10 sec cooldowns with no super armor, the only moves they have with less than 5 second cooldown is warrior skills.  If you have a problem with superarmor on wyvern, I suggest buffing dmg to double maybe triple on all their skills to make up for it. 


Edited by flubsy, 12 April 2016 - 07:54 PM.

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#7 falcoford

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 08:02 PM

1. Cooldown is longer than most skills in game, even lv 5.

 

2. "OL's have high burst dmg", but everyone can out dps it, so it really doesn't.  I mean look at the paladin.  All of their moves have less than 10 sec cooldowns and their dmg is much higher.  This is without time reverse.   What?  Logic? 

 

3. Wyvern is not that strong, the aoe is small.  They can be hit out of it easily.  Also, most myrmidon moves have 10 sec cooldowns with no super armor, the only moves they have with less than 5 second cooldown is warrior skills.  If you have a problem with superarmor on wyvern, I suggest buffing dmg to double maybe triple on all their skills to make up for it. 

I agree with all of this. 


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#8 Precrush

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 12:26 PM

Id rather have overall dmg buffs then this ye. But that's just my opinion!

 

And well on the topic of cooldowns, I think in pvp they should be longer in general to force people to use different kinds of skills and that'd help with balancing too. So in that sense I think destroyers are around where all classes should be. In pve obviously you should be able to have a free flow to it in a sense, it's a hack and slash mmo after all.


Edited by Precrush, 13 April 2016 - 12:53 PM.

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#9 Agitodesu

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 12:40 PM

Overlords have an extremely long cooldown for all skills, the only skill I can think of that's on a short cd is hammer crush/sword dance which is easily outdone by a pally tr.


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#10 Turpi

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:39 PM

First of all Wyvern and Headspin are op and unfair catches with a nice dmg and aoe. The difference is that you can do way better combos after Wyvern Blade compared with Headspin. So WyvernBlade ends up in Wyvern, Storm Blade, Death Grab, Gust Slash, Sword Dance, naked man, Hammer, chaincombo, Bear1, awakening, Bear2, air combo.

And Headspin catch is like:

Headspin, Dragon Uppercut or smth like that -> jump out

Edited by Turpi, 13 April 2016 - 03:40 PM.

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#11 Coolsam

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 05:33 PM

First of all Wyvern and Headspin are op and unfair catches with a nice dmg and aoe. The difference is that you can do way better combos after Wyvern Blade compared with Headspin. So WyvernBlade ends up in Wyvern, Storm Blade, Death Grab, Gust Slash, Sword Dance, naked man, Hammer, chaincombo, Bear1, awakening, Bear2, air combo.

And Headspin catch is like:

Headspin, Dragon Uppercut or smth like that -> jump out


Headspin, Upper Screwdriver, Aerial Frenzy, Cutdown to land faster with super armor, repeat.

Few differences from Overlords;
1st: Nearly that whole combo is super armored. More so at 60+.
2nd: Unless the target does a well timed recover or is really fast, it's infinite.
3rd: Doesn't get royally crippled by lag or relying on Death Grabs rng stun.

So it's actually much better.

Overlord is currently bottom of the barrel even with new and recent nerfs to others.
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#12 Agitodesu

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 05:40 PM

What sam said is true, savages are completely better than overlords anyways either wyvern buffs won't even place overlords any higher than they already are, it's just a minor buff I had going on my head. ol+sorc at the bottom of the list.

 

Also one thing I wanted to note based on logic and game logic. I expect overlords to do A LOT of damage, they probably do the least accumulated damage over time, even the burst due to animation timing. That entire overlord combo you mentioned does less damage than any other combo on a different class with half the element or even less. I had over 10k elemental attack on my overlord, that combo with me extending the combo did nothing. Hit count is low for elements to do anything and the base damage overall without elements is extremely low since everything is based on weapon base.


Edited by Agitodesu, 13 April 2016 - 07:00 PM.

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#13 Coolsam

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 06:53 PM

The major part 1 to a series of buffs would be skill damage calculations to take advantage of their max attack being the highest. Overlords can reach upwards of 100k attack and they'd still lose in damage to an archer or ninja without solars with 1 tier weapon lower in a similar cr/cd scenario. (Basically Overlord hero pos and solars vs ninja with elga without solars in PvE).

In PvP the scenario was no different. Reaching 7k element attack only was good when my foe was nowhere near my gear level. If they actually had defense and resistance it was a losing battle or it'd take 3 full combos to do what they did to me in 1.
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#14 Turpi

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 11:58 PM

Give Wyvern SuperArmor and remove launching effect -> problem solved

And its the most easy thing to jump out of a headspin as long you got more than 250ms.

Since I play all classes in pvp i also have an Overlord at lv 65. I dont see any problems in Wyvern.

I mean you only use it in a combo anyways. Only beginners will use it as a catch.

Also i think you should rather nerf Headspin than putting Wyvern at the same level.

The DPS of overlord is another story. I always die after 2 tornados but beside them they dont have good dmg skills.

Edited by Turpi, 14 April 2016 - 12:08 AM.

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#15 Precrush

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 12:22 AM

I know this wouldn't boost the class up, that's easy to see if you look at savages that aren't that good even with a skill that works like this. I just think people in general use super armor so they don't have to worry about a counter play too much, and that's why I don't like having these long duration skills with it. It just isn't fun to play against, that's my take on it. Giving it super armor wouldn't change much, but that's also sort of a reason not to do it.

 

What I'm saying about the cd is that yes, destroyers have longer cooldowns, but so should every other class in pvp. The issue of low dmg should be fixed with an element change and dmg boosts, and that'd make the class pretty good I think. 


Edited by Precrush, 14 April 2016 - 12:23 AM.

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#16 Turpi

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 12:41 AM

Precrush Destroyers are archers nowadays.

The Gladiator part is now called Overlord :(
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#17 flubsy

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 01:15 AM

Precrush your logic makes no sense.  Giving wyvern super armor would change OL's for the better.  Giving everyone longer cool down on skills is not beneficial to anyone.  

 

Giving a buff to 1 skill is beneficial to one class, which helps bring them closer in terms playability with other classes.


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#18 Precrush

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 01:42 AM

Still confused with these different names on this server, sry >.<

 

The logic is that you wouldn't be able to spam or lock and people would be encouraged to come up with different styles of play. I think that'd give more skills a chance to be used and make pvp more interesting in general .

 

Ye, but it'd be a minor buff, nothing that would "fix" the class. Why not just fix the dmg thing and leave wyvern as is? That'd make them strong enough I'd think. In my mind you should be easily punished for using strong skills that last for a while like wyvern and headspin and then not actually immediately hitting with them.


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#19 flubsy

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 05:37 AM

Just because you don't like a certain style of play doesn't mean you should force others to play the way you want.  


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#20 Precrush

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 05:42 AM

What kind of an argument is that? We are talking about changing skills, that's more or less how that works. o.o


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#21 Turpi

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 06:02 AM

Just because you don't like a certain style of play doesn't mean you should force others to play the way you want.  

 

So we didnt need to nerf twins block, chains, heals, sleep, sky penetration, magnet, all hiding skills, evade, block, aas, sd and other stuff coz its against the playing style of some players?  :(


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#22 flubsy

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 06:29 AM

evade, block, aas, sd and other stuff is fine, the reason why other things were blocked was because they were abused via hacks, bugs, glitches in the game.


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#23 falcoford

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 08:29 AM

If we nerf everyones cooldowns, then would we nerf the attackspeed of the xspam classes?

 

They still have the most ridiculous damage output. 

 

Adding seconds to everyone's cooldowns would make the damage output significantly lower to the non xspam classes.

 

Amiright? : P


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#24 Precrush

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 10:02 AM

No, we'd nerf elements and make summoner x-spam work like clerics (low dmg after a few hits). In any case that comparison doesn't make any sense since you can't just x-spam away, you have to catch them with a skill that would have a higher cooldown. X-spam is like the cleric/summoner combo basically. In pve summoners need a dmg nerf and classes other then cleric and destroyer need dmg buffs. Not like that relates to this topic much though.


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#25 flubsy

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 02:10 PM

Smart shot dmg does not get lower after a few hits without elements.  This is why summoners and twins are OP as their skills and dmg output is glitchy.  


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