28 replies to this topic

[Feuer]

Ok So I got iMatt and Angeltje together with myself to debate the issues behind the Clan Passive system.

 

Here's a video record of about an hour long discussion / debate over the topic, however I also wanted to see what more people think about it.

 

 

Note: Please keep it civil. This is about objectively investigating this system, and using rational and a non bias perspective to come to a conclusion. 

The opinions expressed in the debate are solely mine, and of those who participated, this is not a post as collected feedback, yet~

 

Edit: I'm going to have to edit the video and adjust the levels, for now just try to bare with the unbalanced audio levels. 

Edited by Feuer, 24 April 2016 - 05:59 AM.

[angeltje]

Lol so funny i was more someone who sit and listened then debate. Since i couldnt get betweet you guys debating xD. Anyhow good luck guys.

[KatsuraKujo]

hmm so to tl;dr

Clan passives are affecting gameplay quite a lot because of the temporary skills that really make a big difference in combat. Which is bad for the game. As well as the fact that its almost like a platform for pay to win just because of how much it cost to refresh the skills each month

 

Changes that can be made, is make a clan housing, and remove all the combat (in a way, i'm just trying to summarize what i hear :v) and make it so that the clan housing has access to a lot of npcs inside that clan house which can help exponentially as well as some skills, for example, that can be useful to switch out gears once in awhile when the player is not near the storage. It can be placed in the game arena instead of having an open world npc to drag the players into the housing.

 

Drawback is the compensation needed for the skill that are taken out of the game cuz of how much people spend both time and money on it, to keep it running. So that has to be thought out properly to avoid bad emotions among players which can cause people to hate the game and quit, especially paying players.

 

Then again the advantage is that it causes the clans to finally not be based off combat clan passives so not everyone will want to join big clans just to gain an advantage in combat in any way.

 

Hope i got it right and pretty much all down :v i'll add my opinion in a bit

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 25 April 2016 - 12:13 AM.

[Banrukai]

Too much static, I can't even hear matt really...

[Feuer]

I know, I gotta clean up the audio, I'll work on that tonight possibly. 

[KatsuraKujo]

 

 

My opinion on the clan passives. (And a little update on my progress with my other videos)

[Feuer]

Btw for those having issues making out the audio, refer to KatKujo's TL;DR version, is for the large part correct in what was expressed. 

[nababan]

so pathenic

[Feuer]

pathetic*

[DopeL]

Clan passives affecting GA PVP games is the worst ever sigh..

[henrycao]

these video's seriously have to be watched by everyone who plays Rose.

I agree with them.

 

Clan Power [Attack 10%] ~50Million CP

Clan Defense [Defense & Magic Defense 10%] ~50Million CP

Clan Accuracy [Accuracy 10%] ~50Million CP

Clan Dodge [Dodge 10%] ~50Million CP

 

Clan Recovery  [Hp & Mp from restore effects 10%] ~125Million CP

Stun Resistance [Stun Resistance 10%] ~125Million CP

Silence Resistance [Mute Resistance 10%] ~125Million CP

Sleep Resistance [Sleep Resistance 10%] ~125Million CP

 

So I am happy for the content you guys delivered after lots of people were suggesting that we should have some kind of clan system. However these passives... There % statistical value on Lvl 230 players with full refine gears, weapons and passives are way way too impactful. % Base in general on high level players are huge. The reason we are not talking about +10 all stats is because those are fine. They only effect the base of your stats which players do enjoy having. But Those 8 Clan passives above are practically pay to win because they aren't reasonable to farm. Yes, with great effort comes great reward, but were talking about monthly. Then Even if someones insane enough to farm that amount of CP what can they really do with it? They wouldn't even have enough time to use it and enjoy it. So what happens is you guys start selling power to pvper's who have a competitive nature. It means the player base who PvP are almost "forced" to pay just to get on equal grounds with another clan who has them just to stand a chance. Then also it is not right that new players who want to be strong needs to join a clan with passives. Yes, we do have the option to not join or start our own clan. But why start your own when someone has already put in a huge amount of effort and payed for CP so that there clan makes players stronger? So basically it means, if you want to get stronger you have to join a clan or you would be at a statistical disadvantage. If you can't afford making your own clan from scratch, join someone elses and contribute a little bit and you get stronger. ?????? Are you guys getting that? So this lowers the odds of any new clans forming. Then also the clan player cap can be increased to a ridiculous high. That just promotes the player base to work up 1 clan to rule all clans and have a ton of people farming CP and have all passives. Or You Pay To Win, and those games don't stay alive for very long. But maybe you developers want to earn as much as you can in the quickest time because you've pursued this career for over 10 years now? Well are you trying to run this game to the ground to call it quits? 

I know you developers want the money, but if you rush the earning, the game will fall apart. And I would be very sad to see that happen. I have been playing this game for 7 years, and I always come back to it. Sorry I have to use the term pay to win, but right now. It's starting to slowly seem like it. Yes, everything in game can be earned. But No One, No One wants to spam dungeons for hours and hours over and over repetitively because its not fun. You guys have too, have too create some kind of ranked system.

Going to bring up LoL, that game a player starts at level 1 and max level is 18 I think. Every game is about 30~45minutes. I am just gonna assume you know what I am talking about. So basically the first 15-20 minutes of the game the champion kills minions and they do that every every every single game. And every game you start at level 1.. Where is the fun in that you might ask. Well because they have a ranked system that shows how good you are written down. And you can always progress climb or fall. They have world championships where the best of the best compete. It keeps players intrigued, not just to play but even to watch. There needs to be some kind of ranked system in the future. But anyways back to the topic. Those 8 clan passives are a huge negative impact, I have experienced them for a short period personally and it ruins PvP. Yes they are strong, but way too strong. And it's like if you want to get stronger, it wouldn't be reasonable to farm the CP. You would have to buy it but you can't keep it.

 

Credit's to Feuer, iMatt, KatsuraKujo, angeltje and anyone who were involved to create this discussion.

 

And again. Please create a ranked system so doing game arena becomes a competition not a boring grind?

[iRaphael]

The passives does give a player advantage over another, but it isn't that big of a difference tbh. 

 

 

Say for example ur pvping a raider who has the same build and same eq's. Chances are the raider with clan passives will win only 6/10, meaning the raider without the passive does have a chance.

 

 

Its not that big of a difference to be worried about. But for those who want it regardless, go ahead and pay for it or farm it.

Edited by iRaphael, 07 October 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[Feuer]

Chances are the raider with clan passives will win only 6/10, 

 

Due to my situation this may seem odd that I'm asking, but what are these statistics based on, and can you back this claim with citations Raph? Because when it came to other classes, the resulting differences was much more pronounced when ever I investigated the matter. 

[iRaphael]

Due to my situation this may seem odd that I'm asking, but what are these statistics based on, and can you back this claim with citations Raph? Because when it came to other classes, the resulting differences was much more pronounced when ever I investigated the matter. 

What i'm saying is luck & skill rotation are a important factor in pvps, there are raiders without clan passives or runes who can beat me in pvps while i have those things. Statistically i'm supposed to be beating them, but then again there's skill rotations and plain luck, you miss a couple of skills, get stuck at a skill and so on.

In GA games if you play smart, you could dominate without these clan passives.

 

Is it an advantage over those who don't have it ? Ofc it is! But the gap between those who have clan passives and those who don't isn't so much as everyone imagines it to be.

 

I could make a case saying those people paying for the clan passives are actually getting ripped off! All that money and it isn't even that good tbh.

Edited by iRaphael, 07 October 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[henrycao]

I guess raiders are a different story because there use of dot's cc stun sleep even cloak and camo and an accuracy down that can't be refreshed the second its effect is gone. But if you have a classes that goes head on against each other like swords, it just seems a little overly powerful when there is no way to mechanically outplay the other sword when majority of the time you both get muted. Then it just comes down to whoever has more damage & survivability wins. While raiders can stun, cloak w/e to avoid a few seconds of dot that could win you games.

 

also in game arena when there's lots of aoes and lots of damage you take, it adds up. If you have a 10% ap bonus and you aoe multiple targets, I don't have to explain that. Then having 10% more defense and magic resist and there could be up to 15 targets on the other team, chances are multiple targets will be hitting you. It add's up as you take a certain % less from every hit.

 

I guess my concerns are for some classes the margin of error window is just too small, it makes those passives significant. However i guess raiders have a bigger window for luck & skill rotation that you don't see much of a difference? It's not like that for every class though.

and yes I do agree with you Raph, it's not worth getting but its a luxury majority of players are going to miss out on.

 

it's like this for swords: if your already strong and you get those passives, you become ridiculously strong.. >.>

 

for katar raiders its like this: if your timing is good every single fight... then it just throws you at the top.

 

also the temporary solution players are doing on their own is leaving clans to pvp.. those actions say something about the clan passives

Edited by henrycao, 07 October 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[iRaphael]

I guess raiders are a different story because there use of dot's cc stun sleep even cloak and camo and an accuracy down that can't be refreshed the second its effect is gone. But if you have a classes that goes head on against each other like swords, it just seems a little overly powerful when there is no way to mechanically outplay the other sword when majority of the time you both get muted. Then it just comes down to whoever has more damage & survivability wins. While raiders can stun, cloak w/e to avoid a few seconds of dot that could win you games.

 

also in game arena when there's lots of aoes and lots of damage you take, it adds up. If you have a 10% ap bonus and you aoe multiple targets, I don't have to explain that. Then having 10% more defense and magic resist and there could be up to 15 targets on the other team, chances are multiple targets will be hitting you. It add's up as you take a certain % less from every hit.

 

I guess my concerns are for some classes the margin of error window is just too small, it makes those passives significant. However i guess raiders have a bigger window for luck & skill rotation that you don't see much of a difference? It's not like that for every class though.

and yes I do agree with you Raph, it's not worth getting but its a luxury majority of players are going to miss out on.

 

it's like this for swords: if your already strong and you get those passives, you become ridiculously strong.. >.>

 

for katar raiders its like this: if your timing is good every single fight... then it just throws you at the top.

 

also the temporary solution players are doing on their own is leaving clans to pvp.. those actions say something about the clan passives

So, you saying that there is no way a champ such as yourself ( with those passives ) will lose to a sword champ without passives ?

[Feuer]

The likelihood that Exaltion would lose to a non-passive champion while he himself is on full clan passives is incredibly low. I'd wager a +15 epic on it if I hadn't destroyed them all. 

[iRaphael]

The likelihood that Exaltion would lose to a non-passive champion while he himself is on full clan passives is incredibly low. I'd wager a +15 epic on it if I hadn't destroyed them all. 

True, because i haven't seen any veteran player playing sword champ as a main yet. But i assure you it is possible.

Edited by iRaphael, 08 October 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[Feuer]

There's a key difference between likelihood, and absolute. of course it's 'possible' the point is, how far the difference is between passives and no passives. The Resistance and Offense alone is a 20% advantage shift. in a 10 match of 2 perfectly matched players on all fields aside from clan passives. The outcome could be projected at 70% to the passive player, 30% to the non-passive. In a perfect world. Obviously many other factors exist, it's not a 'perfect match' every time. The point is, 2 passives, making a relative 20% shift is bullocks. 

[henrycao]

it's about likelihood, not about whether its possible or not. I am just not a fan of those passives long story short. Mainly due to it being for combat. There could've been so much more potential to clans rather then just selling ap bonuses and accuracy, dodge w/e it is.. It's not really content.. Just like having a clan house or something, or even like a clan teleporter like that shiny circle thing in luna would be cool. Selling decorations and stuff for the house. Utility, etc. Or even something so random like having Paragon's Clan Logo printed on the floor or even a wall in large text, having a monthly CP fee for it or something. Something that could signify a clans afk spot. Just anything that can make a clan go yay! and not arghh, I am so macho because I have these passives and you don't kind of thing. Lmao

 

I think the clan system should try to connect with players and there clan spot. Because theres this popular thing in game where clans afk all their characters in one particular area. So why not create something through the clan system where they can actually decorate the area through the use of CP. I mean if housing isn't possible thats my suggestion.

[iRaphael]

it's about likelihood, not about whether its possible or not. I am just not a fan of those passives long story short. Mainly due to it being for combat. There could've been so much more potential to clans rather then just selling ap bonuses and accuracy, dodge w/e it is.. It's not really content.. Just like having a clan house or something, or even like a clan teleporter like that shiny circle thing in luna would be cool. Selling decorations and stuff for the house. Utility, etc. Or even something so random like having Paragon's Clan Logo printed on the floor or even a wall in large text, having a monthly CP fee for it or something. Something that could signify a clans afk spot. Just anything that can make a clan go yay! and not arghh, I am so macho because I have these passives and you don't kind of thing. Lmao

 

I think the clan system should try to connect with players and there clan spot. Because theres this popular thing in game where clans afk all their characters in one particular area. So why not create something through the clan system where they can actually decorate the area through the use of CP. I mean if housing isn't possible thats my suggestion.

Ain't nobody gonna spend 200 dollars per month just to have a their name on the floor or wall. No one is going to spend monthly for anything besides a statistical advantage. Players pay that money for "likelihood" of winning.

 

As much as they promote the idea it's free to play, the truth is its a business and as it is ,rose probably isn't earning alot for them. So let me save you some time and tell you that nothing is going to be done about it. 

[henrycao]

fine raph, maybe your right. but I got one more idea that I think players would want. "inventory expansion" a clan passive that increases those square boxes... I would personally like that so I can carry more gears around instead of having to decide which I am going to have to leave in storage. A +6 slot to my inventory can even help me carry a costumes.. Just create +6 unslottable squares in the inventory, consumes, and materials. Then have a clan passive where you can level up through the use of cp and it will open one of those additional squares in your inventory, consume or materials.

We can call it clan inventory expansion

clan consume expansion

clan materials expansion

 

.... further on maybe a shop listing expansion zzz.. We can have clans who are about vending. Not just PvP and PvM. Players can create clan tags to advertise their businesses. It's not uncommon. I have seen some clan tag's that are literally about shopping. I have seen a shopping cart clan logo some time ago. We can have vendors earning cp to expand their shop listing space.. 

I put some thinking into this one ^^

[Feuer]

There's a never ending list of things the Clan system could have provided that weren't passive combat increases....

 

Clan Storage

Clan NPC Service like:

- Discounted Repairs

- Better % success on refining [via an NPC in the clan house

- Better % success on Empowerments

- Teleportation Services

- No fee Storage access

- Higher tier crafting materials

etc

 

The list goes on, and yes people would find these worth spending some* money on. But something you're not accounting for in the statement that people won't pay 200$ a month for passives like this, is the number of people who already DON'T want to spend money on what is essentially a pay to win system. I don't, and I never will. But I speak for myself, and I imagine the much larger silent majority would also as well. So the question becomes, are there more people currently not spending IM on CP, then there are who currently do spend IM points on it for the current passives. 

[iRaphael]

fine raph, maybe your right. but I got one more idea that I think players would want. "inventory expansion" a clan passive that increases those square boxes... I would personally like that so I can carry more gears around instead of having to decide which I am going to have to leave in storage. A +6 slot to my inventory can even help me carry a costumes.. Just create +6 unslottable squares in the inventory, consumes, and materials. Then have a clan passive where you can level up through the use of cp and it will open one of those additional squares in your inventory, consume or materials.

We can call it clan inventory expansion

clan consume expansion

clan materials expansion

 

.... further on maybe a shop listing expansion zzz.. We can have clans who are about vending. Not just PvP and PvM. Players can create clan tags to advertise their businesses. It's not uncommon. I have seen some clan tag's that are literally about shopping. I have seen a shopping cart clan logo some time ago. We can have vendors earning cp to expand their shop listing space.. 

I put some thinking into this one ^^

 

 

There's a never ending list of things the Clan system could have provided that weren't passive combat increases....

 

Clan Storage

Clan NPC Service like:

- Discounted Repairs

- Better % success on refining [via an NPC in the clan house

- Better % success on Empowerments

- Teleportation Services

- No fee Storage access

- Higher tier crafting materials

etc

 

The list goes on, and yes people would find these worth spending some* money on. But something you're not accounting for in the statement that people won't pay 200$ a month for passives like this, is the number of people who already DON'T want to spend money on what is essentially a pay to win system. I don't, and I never will. But I speak for myself, and I imagine the much larger silent majority would also as well. So the question becomes, are there more people currently not spending IM on CP, then there are who currently do spend IM points on it for the current passives. 

 

Personally i wouldn't spend a single penny on these idea's and I mean what am i even paying money for ?

 

- Discounted Repairs ( lol really ? You expect people to pay real money to get their item's repaired for cheaper? )

- Better % success on refining [via an NPC in the clan house) Ain't spending real money on that.)

- Better % success on Empowerments ( Not bad )

- Teleportation Services ( thats why we have teletickets )

- No fee Storage access ( Iol c'mon. )

- Higher tier crafting material ( Comedy ).

- create +6 unslottable squares in the inventory ( no comments )

- Shopping cart logos ( sigh )

 

 

 

Honestly find me people who would spend money on these instead and we can talk lol.

Edited by iRaphael, 10 October 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[Feuer]

How about you post some constructive input then, instead of shooting down ideas because you* wouldn't. Plenty of people in leveling clans like Truth, or the now dead Shiragiku, would have loved [even told me so] benefits like the ones I listed. 

 

So Raph, what WOULD you spend money on? Or does the concept of helping keep the server running by paying for something you play several times a week for free not apply unless you specifically get some kind of advantage in combat over other players? Cause, that's what I'm getting from your responses so far, and I'd like to hope you will prove me wrong with some new innovative ideas we haven't seen.