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#76 DemliekCake

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 05:55 AM

People aren't arguing about which is better between Physical Rk or Db rk. People are arguing about what you said about physical Rk and i quote:

 pure trash in iRO 

 

The bottom line is physical Rk IS a viable build.

Can physical Rk tank as good as sura? No.
Can physical Rk deal better aoe than ranger? No.
Can physical Rk outdps GX in single target? No.

But in this 3 questions, physical Rk probably is a close 2nd or 3rd place in term of how effective it is in the respective field compare to other classes.
Yes, you can have 12 different classes and each can do 12 different thing, but you also can have 1 class that can do 12 different things even tho it isn't as effective as those individual 12 classes. But it still doesn't make it any less viable.


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#77 hotel

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 06:05 AM

Nobody is preaching the truth here, including you. I am just presenting my subjective opinion for the short comings of P RK and it's not just specifically for end game Physical RK PvM  and why DB RK is a better build overall in a competitive sense. There are not many no reason for RK to go for BB+IB build, especially if they consider the build for transitioning purposes (level 100-130 then switch to DB, as it is extremely inefficient while DB RK holds up ok at lower level). End game DB RK also has more utility and potential than P RK in many scenario. While P RK can easily be replaced by other build from other class at much lower the cost.

Your lack of ability to look things in a bigger a picture is probably why we're having this contention now. It will also likely misleading many newyer players to go for a lackluster and expensive build in many PvM and WoE scenario outside particular solo actions. You have yet to addressed any of my concerns and I am willing to listen to your opinion. Your lines of credibility insults ultimately tells me you have no idea what you're talking about either, and you probably regret dumping 3-4B into a build that are not as good as you'd like it to be. But it's probably build that is a lot of fun for you, and that's perfectly ok. Majority of the RK in the server are already making a decision to go for DB builds and hardly anyone go for P RK for whatever reasons, and I personally think that's a most logical decision based on my personal analysis. 

And I think many of the veterans posters have clearly demonstrated how toxic this community is with one liner insults. It really gives out bad impression, and it is not the first time either. There are many times where peopleand newer players ask legitimate questions but got shutdown by forum "elitism" and call the OP noobs and stuff.  Everybody is entitled to their opinion, as you may agree or disagree.


 

 

So here's the thing. Every time I make a point, you refute that point by extrapolating into this 'bigger picture' that has nothing to do with the original discussion. 

 

We're not talking about other classes. We're not talking about WoE. We're not talking about leveling, or party play. Why aren't we talking about those? Because other classes/DB wins flat out.

 

We're talking about end game, solo instance PVM/MVP. And the reason we're talking about this is that it's where the majority of semi-casual semi-hardcore players spend their time in game. Don't agree? Let me break it down for you.

 

WoE population sits at around 150-200 max out of 3-4k+ players. Obviously not the majority.

 

Leveling is a process everyone goes through that takes on average 4-5 months. Unless you're literally only planning on playing this game to level characters and/or going to quit once you hit max level, obviously not the majority.

 

Instance/MVP partying with randoms pretty much doesn't happen. The only place where it happens semi-regularly is in a dedicated PVM guild. How many players are in dedicated PVM guilds? Not the majority. How many of those players are people who will consistently PVM in a party but never want to solo anything? Not the majority.

 

So there's quite clearly a target audience for the build, right? There's quite clearly a considerable number of players who spend most of their time PVM'ing solo. These guys are hardcore enough to want to solo consistently, but also casual enough to not care too much about which class is the absolute best. They care enough to want to be able to kill stuff decently, but not to the point of rolling a Gen or GX just because those classes are the most efficient. Is it really so difficult to imagine this type of player exists? It shouldn't be, because I'm literally drawing a line down the exact middle of the playerbase which is what most people tend to identify with.

 

Okay, so here we have our average Joe who's taken a liking to RKs. He's not particularly interested in WoE since he's heard Renewal WoE is a pretty imbalanced one shot fest, and while he's joined a guild and made friends, instance-wise they really only do ET once a week because it's hard to make everyone's schedules meet. So, he spends most of his time playing the game by himself. Now he wants to decide between DB or physical. He learns that DB is better for WoE and better for parties, but he doesn't WoE and he only parties very occasionally. There are also some limitations that are a bit annoying for PVM like being restricted to two elements and having a two second delay. Being an average guy with an average budget there's no way he can afford MVP cards. He's also not too keen on leveling an additional two characters either, since if he was going to go to that much effort why not just roll a Geneticist instead for higher reward?

 

Then someone tells him about a physical build and how it's a lot more versatile, can clear a much larger variety of content than a DB build can on his average budget, but that it sucks in WoE and as party DPS. Joe thinks about it for awhile and realizes that since he spends most of his time playing the game solo, he would be okay with the tradeoff. So he goes for the physical build and has a lot more fun during the week since he can do so much more than he could before. He also doesn't have to break his keyboard spamming two skills repeatedly which is a bonus.

 

Bottom line: most players don't WoE, most players won't spend most of their time leveling, most players aren't in a super dedicated PVM guild, so what's left? Solo PVM. Now how does a DB build compare with a physical build in this regard? Both have their advantages and disadvantages. One such advantage of a physical build is that it's able to complete a larger number of instances than its DB counterpart. It doesn't require MVPs or triple clients to achieve this, either.

 

Would I recommend it to a new player? Hell no. Nor did I ever say you should go physical straight out the gate at level 100. But just because a build sucks at the early levels doesn't mean it sucks at the later ones too.

 

Regarding the "toxicity": everyone is entitled to their own opinion, sure. But when that opinion isn't based on empirical or even anecdotal evidence it's pretty hard to take it seriously. The extent of your argument is basically, 'I played a physical RK while leveling, it sucked. I never got to max level or end game on it, but since it seems like a worser GX, it must suck for that, too.'

 

To conclude. It's true that DB is better holistically speaking, but it doesn't matter nearly as much when some of the fields it holds an advantage in either aren't very populated (WoE) or typically don't occur as often (instance parties).


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#78 mildcontempt

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 06:17 AM

 

welp. This is mine. It isnt 70k neutral IB. But it is using +9 Thanatos2hand with HunterFly and neutral.

Considering the fact that i have the same damage as you without +200 str from bp proc, +30str from str food and eden buff, and 75% extra damage from holy advantage, and 20% from santa poring card, i guess it is pretty decent?
 

image.png

 

 

 

Help me out here mate, I can't see the damage numbers anywhere in the screenshot. 


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#79 DemliekCake

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 06:47 AM

it is on top of the rk sprite. 47977


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#80 mildcontempt

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 07:14 AM

Ah! Thank you! I kept looking above the explosion animation, and I guess the white shafts of light threw me off. 


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#81 yamasakai90

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 07:31 PM

Totally agree to hotel's point. There are many class that outclass physical RK, even the DB build when you take it into account gods and party. 

 

But to say its totally trash build. Its not.

 

Its not the best, but it isn't trash either. Its an alternative to the cookie cutter build. And here OP is asking for suggestion to improve the RK IB dmg/sp or range. 

 


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#82 3025140119203620510

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 01:41 AM

So here's the thing. Every time I make a point, you refute that point by extrapolating into this 'bigger picture' that has nothing to do with the original discussion. 

 

We're not talking about other classes. We're not talking about WoE. We're not talking about leveling, or party play. Why aren't we talking about those? Because other classes/DB wins flat out.

 

We're talking about end game, solo instance PVM/MVP. And the reason we're talking about this is that it's where the majority of semi-casual semi-hardcore players spend their time in game. Don't agree? Let me break it down for you.

 

WoE population sits at around 150-200 max out of 3-4k+ players. Obviously not the majority.

 

Leveling is a process everyone goes through that takes on average 4-5 months. Unless you're literally only planning on playing this game to level characters and/or going to quit once you hit max level, obviously not the majority.

 

Instance/MVP partying with randoms pretty much doesn't happen. The only place where it happens semi-regularly is in a dedicated PVM guild. How many players are in dedicated PVM guilds? Not the majority. How many of those players are people who will consistently PVM in a party but never want to solo anything? Not the majority.

 

So there's quite clearly a target audience for the build, right? There's quite clearly a considerable number of players who spend most of their time PVM'ing solo. These guys are hardcore enough to want to solo consistently, but also casual enough to not care too much about which class is the absolute best. They care enough to want to be able to kill stuff decently, but not to the point of rolling a Gen or GX just because those classes are the most efficient. Is it really so difficult to imagine this type of player exists? It shouldn't be, because I'm literally drawing a line down the exact middle of the playerbase which is what most people tend to identify with.

 

Okay, so here we have our average Joe who's taken a liking to RKs. He's not particularly interested in WoE since he's heard Renewal WoE is a pretty imbalanced one shot fest, and while he's joined a guild and made friends, instance-wise they really only do ET once a week because it's hard to make everyone's schedules meet. So, he spends most of his time playing the game by himself. Now he wants to decide between DB or physical. He learns that DB is better for WoE and better for parties, but he doesn't WoE and he only parties very occasionally. There are also some limitations that are a bit annoying for PVM like being restricted to two elements and having a two second delay. Being an average guy with an average budget there's no way he can afford MVP cards. He's also not too keen on leveling an additional two characters either, since if he was going to go to that much effort why not just roll a Geneticist instead for higher reward?

 

Then someone tells him about a physical build and how it's a lot more versatile, can clear a much larger variety of content than a DB build can on his average budget, but that it sucks in WoE and as party DPS. Joe thinks about it for awhile and realizes that since he spends most of his time playing the game solo, he would be okay with the tradeoff. So he goes for the physical build and has a lot more fun during the week since he can do so much more than he could before. He also doesn't have to break his keyboard spamming two skills repeatedly which is a bonus.

 

Bottom line: most players don't WoE, most players won't spend most of their time leveling, most players aren't in a super dedicated PVM guild, so what's left? Solo PVM. Now how does a DB build compare with a physical build in this regard? Both have their advantages and disadvantages. One such advantage of a physical build is that it's able to complete a larger number of instances than its DB counterpart. It doesn't require MVPs or triple clients to achieve this, either.

 

Would I recommend it to a new player? Hell no. Nor did I ever say you should go physical straight out the gate at level 100. But just because a build sucks at the early levels doesn't mean it sucks at the later ones too.

 

Regarding the "toxicity": everyone is entitled to their own opinion, sure. But when that opinion isn't based on empirical or even anecdotal evidence it's pretty hard to take it seriously. The extent of your argument is basically, 'I played a physical RK while leveling, it sucked. I never got to max level or end game on it, but since it seems like a worser GX, it must suck for that, too.'

 

To conclude. It's true that DB is better holistically speaking, but it doesn't matter nearly as much when some of the fields it holds an advantage in either aren't very populated (WoE) or typically don't occur as often (instance parties).

 

I have nothing against that BB+IB may be more flexible in a specific solo PvM scenario. But requiring a full reset between DB and BB+IB between my party instance/ET run, and heavily invest in another set of physical gears are really kind of inefficient. You could easily use that resource to gear a decent GX and it will solo farm instances more cost effectively. Nowhere in the original discussion has bounded the comparison strictly to RK class, since we're playing the same game. Our disagreement comes down to comparing criteria I believe, but I respect your opinion if you want to keep it only for RK class. P RK after all, is hell lot of fun, and it beats 1 button spam any day. But I would not choose it for competitive reasons.  

My evidence of why DB RK is superior build overall is pretty clear. It's also not something I pull out from my ass as you make it sound. It's not unreasonable to assume that majority of high level RK players are mostly DB RK, because P RK seems like a dying breed. I have encountered far more high level DB RK than ever P RK. So if I give you a benefit of a doubt, and say that P RK and DB RK are equally as capable as you suggested, why don't we see more equal distribution of high level P RK and DB RK in the server? GX seems to  heavily dominated the physical melee scene, and most RK I encountered are DB or its variant builds. That is a much harder evidence than theory crafting that tells me that right now the Physical RK is probably not part of the meta, and considered just for fun build / niche. 

P RK may be viable in many scenario as you mentioned. However, there are other options available that are cheaper and more efficient for that scenario that DB RK lacks. It's true that there are areas that P RK can fill in where DB RK may not do as good of a job, but switching between those two builds are not cost effective at all, and you might as well level up a more efficient class. The lack of popularity in the P RK build also makes gearing difficult and expensive, adding to the fact that many P RK gears are account bound.  Those are my personal assessment to why P RK is mostly a bad idea for competitive reasons. Also from what I understand from your post, our assessment is pretty much the same. I simply disregard P RK altogether with its shortcomings you mentioned adding with other factors, but you personally think it's a viable. 


Edited by 3025140119203620510, 02 June 2016 - 01:43 AM.

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#83 cory

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 02:36 AM

I honestly feel like I'm reading 2 different arguments in parallel dimensions.


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#84 fuyukikun

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 03:55 AM

feels like reading a novel based on fanfiction
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#85 DemliekCake

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 08:18 AM

Gotta clean up some bullpoop first.

I have nothing against that BB+IB may be more flexible in a specific solo PvM scenario. But requiring a full reset between DB and BB+IB between my party instance/ET run, and heavily invest in another set of physical gears are really kind of inefficient.
First. why do you have to reset between party and instance run?
If you want to go db, then stick with db and level up. If you want to go with Physical, then stick with physical and level up. If you already 175, then go with whatever build you want. If you want to level up, then sure it is easier with DB, but doesnt mean it cant be done with physical Rk.


You could easily use that resource to gear a decent GX and it will solo farm instances more cost effectively. Nowhere in the original discussion has bounded the comparison strictly to RK class, since we're playing the same game.
So? you also can slap in a decent gear gx and it will outperform db rk. This is a useless arguement to make.

Our disagreement comes down to comparing criteria I believe, but I respect your opinion if you want to keep it only for RK class. P RK after all, is hell lot of fun, and it beats 1 button spam any day. But I would not choose it for competitive reasons.  
Which competitive reason? Mvping? pretty sure CS+frenzy will outdps db rk. Heck even give gx, ranger, and gene a good run for their money. Most of the time it will be who manage to find the mvp first. WoE? There is a lot of db rk in woe because DB is the best aoe skill for precast. And you will need more than 1 in each guild. It still doesnt mean Physical Rk isnt viable. No class can 1v1 physical Rk in woe/pvp (except for sc, even then you still can kill them) without ganging on them or going for hit and run (trying to kill a snapping sura aint fun).

My evidence of why DB RK is superior build overall is pretty clear. It's also not something I pull out from my ass as you make it sound. It's not unreasonable to assume that majority of high level RK players are mostly DB RK, because P RK seems like a dying breed. I have encountered far more high level DB RK than ever P RK. So if I give you a benefit of a doubt, and say that P RK and DB RK are equally as capable as you suggested, why don't we see more equal distribution of high level P RK and DB RK in the server?
False. Physical Rk only start getting popular after blackCross posted his guide. It is only 9 months and look at how far we had come. Before, there are a few physical Rk in the server, but they are not as open with their build.

GX seems to  heavily dominated the physical melee scene, and most RK I encountered are DB or its variant builds. That is a much harder evidence than theory crafting that tells me that right now the Physical RK is probably not part of the meta, and considered just for fun build / niche. 
Same argument as above. And yes, GX is better than physical Rk, in pvm. But as for woe/pvp, physical Rk is still better.


P RK may be viable in many scenario as you mentioned. However, there are other options available that are cheaper and more efficient for that scenario that DB RK lacks. It's true that there are areas that P RK can fill in where DB RK may not do as good of a job, but switching between those two builds are not cost effective at all, and you might as well level up a more efficient class. 
Then again, you also can build a GX and just ignore DB rk and still can do most pvm stuff. And why would you said switching between these two build is not cost effective? If you keep changing a few times a week then sure, neu and reset stone will eat up your zeny. But if you only do it 2 or 3 times, i dont think it will be that terrible. Plus high end gear w/o mvp for db rk is pretty much cost the same with high end of physical Rk.

The lack of popularity in the P RK build also makes gearing difficult and expensive, adding to the fact that many P RK gears are account bound.  
False. The only gears that you might need to get for yourself is the weapon and as of right now, i dont really think that is a problem. As for other part, you can get gx or ranger gear which i assure you can be easily obtainable from the market. The only physical Rk gears which are account bound is rwc ring, but even then, PoM still outscale it and not even account bound. Heck, it is wayy cheaper. As for Glorious weapon, ofcourse. But that doesnt mean that you have to get one. 

Those are my personal assessment to why P RK is mostly a bad idea for competitive reasons. Also from what I understand from your post, our assessment is pretty much the same. I simply disregard P RK altogether with its shortcomings you mentioned adding with other factors, but you personally think it's a viable. 

 


Edited by DemliekCake, 02 June 2016 - 12:41 PM.

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#86 Necrohealiac

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 12:29 PM

whenever i need to be entertained i visit this thread.
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#87 fuyukikun

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 03:01 PM

whenever i need to be entertained i visit this thread.

your life is so sad, boi
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#88 hotel

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 04:35 PM

I give up guys


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#89 Ashuckel

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 04:53 PM

now you know how i felt on that other thread on thief forums :v


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#90 Necrohealiac

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 04:58 PM

your life is so sad, boi


not as sad as people who live in denial.
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#91 Ucatolica

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 01:54 PM

well with rune circlet and new phys gears, IB RK is pretty nice. 

 

 

VModCinnamon:

Times change!
Kindly avoid bumping inactive topics as it may bump outdated info.

 

Topic is now closed.


Edited by VModCinnamon, 19 January 2018 - 02:26 AM.
Mod Edit: Closed for necromancy.

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#92 PervySageMarty

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 04:37 PM

That's not the point because that skills conform a part of a same build, Ignition Break is a variant of Rk with another build.

 

No, Judex is not a part of the same build, its only a part of the adoramus build and even then, people dont use it alot if at all.


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#93 YongkySH

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 11:15 PM

So who wins now?
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