114 replies to this topic

[DarkSideOfMoon]

Skill with AoE potential will have their Skill Power divided among the targets hit. That's all that needs to be added to AoE tooltips.

 No it has to be more precise. More than an ineffectual blabbering.

[amfutah]

Hello everyone,

 

I m pretty enthousiastic about this last update... unlike 99% of you all.

 

This is a fantactic news for pvp.. true... but it s also absolutly amazing for the PVE side of the game. 

Finally, the incredible imba differences existing between AOE classes and single target classes will get to be " a bit" reduced. This may in the long run lead to less class discrimination... and ppl finally considering playing non aoe classes in PVE... and even maybe encouraging ppl to stop AOE botting and start killing mobs on their own.

 

As I see it, you guys are sour coz Devs finally decided to nerf your oh so precious aoe spammers... and this brings a smile upon my face.

 

Don't get me wrong tho, I recon that their might be needs to adjust mobs HP... dungeon difficulty... in order to bring everything into the right place... but for once.... since many fraking years... Devs took a decision going in the right direction.

 

You should celebrate instead of whining, now that leonis is gone... their might be hope. Let's fking pop this champagne magmum waiting since ten years.... or wait... let s wait a few more patches to make sure this " we decided to do the right things" wasn t a lie.

 

 

Top stop AOE botting make the AOE into select target.

 

I think you didn't know how hard at DG if you dont have an AOE, some player make the DG as their farm site for lisent-U

I do dg every day helping some level 200 to level while farming, but now only 3 people go at DG and after killing the first boss they leave. What if the event is ended? 

 

This people you called imba is working hard to get stronger, doing dailies everyday for paradigmatic ore, farming valor point in exchange for honor points, hunting holy element, and even buying IM skills. Don't get jealous on them, Use your head to counter AOE instead of crying

 

Fire element is weak againts water  

[CharasX]

Top stop AOE botting make the AOE into select target.

 

I think you didn't know how hard at DG if you dont have an AOE, some player make the DG as their farm site for lisent-U

I do dg every day helping some level 200 to level while farming, but now only 3 people go at DG and after killing the first boss they leave. What if the event is ended? 

 

This people you called imba is working hard to get stronger, doing dailies everyday for paradigmatic ore, farming valor point in exchange for honor points, hunting holy element, and even buying IM skills. Don't get jealous on them, Use your head to counter AOE instead of crying

 

Fire element is weak againts water  

 

Sorry dude, you'll never ever manage to convince me that poeple choosing a class for easy win (be it at pve or pvp) are "hard working".

 

True, AOE classes are now killing packs of mobs slower than they used to... but they are still killing way faster than single target classes. If you ask me, it s not a big enought nerf... but it s already a good begining. iROSE was designed with extremly weak AOE damages for every classes, making it worth it to AOE only on 15+ mobs. On PreEVO, AOES became more powerfull, but still not better than single target skills on 1 target.... EVO... aka the doom of ROSE, fked it all up (90% of ROSE population left... )

 

It's not jealousy to wish for a game to be balanced...or at least, to get a bit better at it. I m not the one crying here... but as a matter of fact you are... and on top of that you are mad... need a cuddle? ahhh teenies.....

[DutchGamer]

My opinion/experience:

 

I did a lot of dungeons before this update. With these +65 buffs it was way too easy, so +1 for the gm's for the changes before. Now i've tried like 10-20 runs Cave of Ulverick. I have to say, it's not impossible to do these runs, it just takes a lot of time, valuable time (when you clean). I'm playing a Knight, my AoE's were bad before this new update. I took 2 mages with me to clean Cave of Ulverick, it took us like 30 minutes each run to clean everything.

 

So, the cleaning part is very hard now. Rushing is no problem, i can still rush Halls of Oblivion and Cave of Ulverick, nothing wrong with that.

It's just annoying when you try to level ur friends.. This event makes  the pain less (XP raises), but when this event is gone, it takes ages to get to level 230. 

 

I think you guys should've tried this update on the test server before launching it in the real game. After that you could've made a poll or something, so you could see if people like the new update, that's why you guys made this test server right? Maybe i'm wrong, but i don't think this is a good update for PvM players. 

 

 for letting the community give their feedback. I hope you guys can do something with it. You guys made a great game, don't make people leave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Negg]

......

Killing me softly

Edited by Negg, 26 August 2016 - 12:59 AM.

[QueenElizabeth]

Another idea...

 

Why weaken the chars?

Just make the chars stronger who need it... to balance the game.

raise the defense... raise the attack power...  create a new AoE defense... whatever is needed... depends on the char.

 

Weaken the chars feels like... taking something away. And no one wants to give up something, in which he put a lot of effort and money. 

Real money in most cases.

 

It feels better for the players to keep the strong chars... and get other chars even stronger.

 

The result is the same... balanced game in PvP...

And this could not affect PvM that much.

[raranz25]

Another idea...

 

Why weaken the chars?

Just make the chars stronger who need it... to balance the game.

raise the defense... raise the attack power...  create a new AoE defense... whatever is needed... depends on the char.

 

Weaken the chars feels like... taking something away. And no one wants to give up something, in which he put a lot of effort and money. 

Real money in most cases.

 

It feels better for the players to keep the strong chars... and get other chars even stronger.

 

The result is the same... balanced game in PvP...

And this could not affect PvM that much.

 

I would agree on this one. Because of PVP changes, PVM gameplay are being affected. Since the update I saw alot of changes from Dungeons. Cou would take 30mins for cleaning of even more, depending on the group you are playing. HOO is quiet hard to clean now and also the bugs that are present there. Crit lock on the 2nd mini boss room by mobs when luring using my Knight. Before dungeon ques are alot but as what I've noticed now  COU, HOO, SC and SOD have lesser players playing. Before, I could go to Dungeons for hours with great groups but now, on certain time in game, it's like nobody is playing dungeons and PVP GA isn't that active most of the time.

[amfutah]

Sorry dude, you'll never ever manage to convince me that poeple choosing a class for easy win (be it at pve or pvp) are "hard working".

 

True, AOE classes are now killing packs of mobs slower than they used to... but they are still killing way faster than single target classes. If you ask me, it s not a big enought nerf... but it s already a good begining. iROSE was designed with extremly weak AOE damages for every classes, making it worth it to AOE only on 15+ mobs. On PreEVO, AOES became more powerfull, but still not better than single target skills on 1 target.... EVO... aka the doom of ROSE, fked it all up (90% of ROSE population left... )

 

It's not jealousy to wish for a game to be balanced...or at least, to get a bit better at it. I m not the one crying here... but as a matter of fact you are... and on top of that you are mad... need a cuddle? ahhh teenies.....

 

Dude you didnt get the point of AOE, AOE meant to kill pack of mobs not a single mob

 

If this is not jealousy why are you crying if someone beat you at PVP by AOE, i think you're a type of person who didn't use a head in PVP, 

[CharasX]

Another idea...

 

Why weaken the chars?

Just make the chars stronger who need it... to balance the game.

raise the defense... raise the attack power...  create a new AoE defense... whatever is needed... depends on the char.

 

Weaken the chars feels like... taking something away. And no one wants to give up something, in which he put a lot of effort and money. 

Real money in most cases.

 

It feels better for the players to keep the strong chars... and get other chars even stronger.

 

The result is the same... balanced game in PvP...

And this could not affect PvM that much.

 

The problem with your idea is that, to make the average DPS output balanced between a single target class and an AOE class ... you would need to MULTIPLY all those single target DPS classes by... 20x? 30x? depends on the size of your lure... And here you go... now you might realize that this wasn't so brilliant.

I do agree with u tho, it gives a better gameplay experience to feel your character strong... but in AOE cases... it ruins the game... pushes to discriminate certain classes... and encourages botting. There is a reason why ROSE was designed to have low AP aoes (is supposed to deal top 300 to 500s dmg per hit originally... mages were able to have access to hard hitting AOES but with a *what was it already* 5 minutes CD at the start of EVO? or even more ( I do remember my mates abusing CD timer reason after disconnecting to level fast in prison).

 

Anyway.

That s a fact AOE needed to be nerfed badly... more than they got on this update.

It s really a good move... now ppl needs to adress to real problem... MOBS HP! Mobs have too much HPs, u ain t killing slow coz of ur nerfed imba damages, you are killing slow because it takes ages to kill mobs, if you go through the pain of calculating your DPS during a lure session, i m pretty sure it s still freaking gloriously high compared to what you could deal whie single target dpsing. 

 

You see, this update actually made me start this game again! that s how much of a good news it is to me.

 

EDIT

 

Dude you didnt get the point of AOE, AOE meant to kill pack of mobs not a single mob

 

If this is not jealousy why are you crying if someone beat you at PVP by AOE, i think you're a type of person who didn't use a head in PVP, 

 

hmmm you don't know me, I don't know you... let s keep it that way shall we? as I see it... you are just another random kid trying to act tough on ROSE forum, trust me, u ain t alone.

Edited by CharasX, 26 August 2016 - 08:30 AM.

[HoneyBunz]

Not so sure I agree with the comments that the dungeons are being done less. I was just shopping around in Junon and there are lots of shops with dungeon-related drops now. Many more than there were a few weeks ago.

 

Clearly at least some people have figured out how to do dungeons even with the recent changes.

 

 

[DutchGamer]

Not so sure I agree with the comments that the dungeons are being done less. I was just shopping around in Junon and there are lots of shops with dungeon-related drops now. Many more than there were a few weeks ago.

 

Clearly at least some people have figured out how to do dungeons even with the recent changes.

 

That's because it's harder to finish dungeons now, the prices of dungeon related items raised. Nothing to do with figuring out how to finish dungeons.

[Feuer]

So, everyone here has still not realized that PvE is about sustaining and DPS pressure? I would have figured by now at least one person would have brought that up. 

[HoneyBunz]

That's because it's harder to finish dungeons now, the prices of dungeon related items raised. Nothing to do with figuring out how to finish dungeons.

I'm not talking about price. I mean there are many more shops selling dungeon drops.  That was not the case even a few weeks ago.

[DutchGamer]

I'm not talking about price. I mean there are many more shops selling dungeon drops.  That was not the case even a few weeks ago.

That's because the prices raised. Before this new update players didn't spend shop space for low priced dungeon items, they already had them before the new patch, i hope you'll understand it now.

[kumpiakot]

i feel for the pvm players how hard grinding is after the update but we are trying to balance the game..if you haven't experienced a 2-3 secs clash on AA or on a pvp area and saying that aoe is not needed to be nerfed there is something wrong with you...

 

there are some good suggestion tossed earlier like reducing mobs HP and boosting bonus stats for pvm gears.

 

 

 

[amfutah]

The problem with your idea is that, to make the average DPS output balanced between a single target class and an AOE class ... you would need to MULTIPLY all those single target DPS classes by... 20x? 30x? depends on the size of your lure... And here you go... now you might realize that this wasn't so brilliant.

I do agree with u tho, it gives a better gameplay experience to feel your character strong... but in AOE cases... it ruins the game... pushes to discriminate certain classes... and encourages botting. There is a reason why ROSE was designed to have low AP aoes (is supposed to deal top 300 to 500s dmg per hit originally... mages were able to have access to hard hitting AOES but with a *what was it already* 5 minutes CD at the start of EVO? or even more ( I do remember my mates abusing CD timer reason after disconnecting to level fast in prison).

 

Anyway.

That s a fact AOE needed to be nerfed badly... more than they got on this update.

It s really a good move... now ppl needs to adress to real problem... MOBS HP! Mobs have too much HPs, u ain t killing slow coz of ur nerfed imba damages, you are killing slow because it takes ages to kill mobs, if you go through the pain of calculating your DPS during a lure session, i m pretty sure it s still freaking gloriously high compared to what you could deal whie single target dpsing. 

 

You see, this update actually made me start this game again! that s how much of a good news it is to me.

 

EDIT

 

 

hmmm you don't know me, I don't know you... let s keep it that way shall we? as I see it... you are just another random kid trying to act tough on ROSE forum, trust me, u ain t alone.

 

Dont call me kid, im older than you, Out of 10 player, only 2 says that this update is good, you only think your self and the class your playing, In each group or party you need an aoe to grind fast, to kill mobs fast, to level fast

 

reason why player dont want this update

 

1. Of course the AOE nerf. My character class is knight with a good gear enough to kill the mobs in 6hits of AOE before update 

 

2  After update you need to kill the mobs more than 8hits of aoe if you are the only one aoe at DG,

 

3 If player saw that there's not enough aoe in the group they leave at DG since GA is free

 

4 If this continue player will lost their interest to do DG, and even new player will quit soon if they find out how hard to grind alone  when they reach level 180+ 

 

 

and last AOE doesnt ruin the game, the implemention are the one who ruined the game, create a new character and see it for your self.       

  

 

 

 

Edited by amfutah, 26 August 2016 - 12:35 PM.

[Negg]

Imagine when A bourg got at least 3.5k damage with 170% crit damage in AA. after this update, most classes now are useless like spear champ and knight that cant handle aggro in pvm.

 

In my opinion, they should have increase the hp on all classes and heals for clerics. that way no1 can get 1 to 2 skills in pvp.

[Feuer]

In my opinion, they should have increase the hp on all classes and heals for clerics. that way no1 can get 1 to 2 skills in pvp.

 

How does this solve the DPS disparity between single target fighters and AoE fighters? 

 

Sure, you may have a 300% Skill power Single Shot Skill.

And the AoE's may be on average 250%. But as soon, as SOON as you hit 2 people, you're now putting into the environment 500% skill power, 3 targets 750%, 4 targets 1,000%. And if you pull a magic shot off, and actually manage to hit all 20 enemy players in PvP, your effective damage output on that one single skill was 5,000% skill power. And that is the problem. However, there's more than 20 targets in PvP thanks to summons, flames, and the xtal. If we put just 2 FS on a team, a slightly normal thing to happen. Then say put in 1 Artisan with summons. You're looking at potentially 20 players + 6 flames + 2 summons + Crystal for a total of 29 Targets. This requires a bit more luck, but you can still hit the entire area with the AoE radius Runes. 

 

The final output in that scenario, prior to the damage spread patch, would have been 7,250% Skill Power. Even if you reduced the Damage by 90%, you're still looking at 725%. over 2x the Damage of a Single Target skill.

 

So no, I don't really care for this arguement, but I also don't think your proposal would have done anything at all aside from increase the gap between Single Target builds and AoE builds.

 

[And for those curious, an AoE prior to v617 in PvE with a 60-70 mob pull, using a 250% skill was 15,000% - 17,500%] 

[bLackAngeL33]

What you talking Feur is the total damage inflicted. It will be higher compare to a single target. Lets say an aoer can damage 500-1k each on 20 people still will go 10-20k on 1 skill compare to single target with 7k-10k on 1 skill. So even the aoer does high TOTAL damage inflicted which of this class has more effectivity in aa? the one who do 500-1k on EACH 20 people? or the one who do 7-10k on 1 of 20 people?

 

Anyway, just go with the flow guys. This has been in game since from the beginning and it wont end til a certain class outshine other class... Many just loss their will on playing since paradigm patch released only recently. Many people goes on Champ,Knight, Cannon borg, Mage w/c all aoer build. Most are still on process on building their character. Some invested and work hard. They still havent even finish what they trying to build then another patch came and hit their class. I know a friend in game spend some big bucks to complete his pvm and pvp gears on his champion then this happens. So you cant blame if some other individuals loss their interest in playing. so far crafter and hitter class no more hope it wont happens to aoer. BTW, I tried to do dg last night in cou we can still have under 15mins run clean or rush. Party compose of 1 champ,1 knight,1 mage, 1fs, and a raider. So far a rush took us 7 mins to finish the cou so still a decent run... Don't give up for now...

[4642130816032728227]

oh oh,

 

nerf the healing too. heavenly grace heals about 6k per toon, x 15 in their party is 90K total. too much.

 

nerf the dodge too, 1 hit is full dodge, 2 target hit should halve the dodge too.

 

nerf the def too. 1 hit is full def, 2 target hit is...u know the math.

 

 

maybe shorten the target aoe range, they may risk get caught being too near to a target. or reduce the area.

 

 

u cannot balance pvp ever. diff class with different skills and roles in party.

 

dungeon earlier, a knight, and a bourg, along wih an fs.

knight lure, mobs pouring, aoe was like 600/mob. pity the knight,

bourg come and cannon em all, suddenly mob change target,

knight sacri was 20sec delay, and aoe does puny dmg to keep the mobs at them.

bourg died. cursing cleric. cleric left.

knight left, bourg left. 

cou was fun.

 

 

[Feuer]

What you talking Feur is the total damage inflicted. It will be higher compare to a single target. Lets say an aoer can damage 500-1k each on 20 people still will go 10-20k on 1 skill compare to single target with 7k-10k on 1 skill. So even the aoer does high TOTAL damage inflicted which of this class has more effectivity in aa? the one who do 500-1k on EACH 20 people? or the one who do 7-10k on 1 of 20 people?

 

That's lovely math and everything, but you're not being realistic with your numbers. If one Character had both an AoE, and a Single target of the same tier, and their single target skill did 7k-10k, then their AoE is also going to do 5k-7k PER HIT. 

 

You drastically undercut your numbers to make it seem like the old system was balanced, when the reality of it is that the new system produces closer numbers to what you listed. So now AoE's are a choice of "do I want to apply pressure on one spot", or "do I want to apply pressure to an entire group". And guess what, it's working that way in PvP. 

 

PvM the number got hit harder, and to me personally that's fine. I enjoy needing to use my brain in a Dungeon. I look forward to the challenge. But there are ways around it, using DoT's, Reflected Damage, AoE Status Downs etc.

 

Edited to correct some spelling and grammar errors.. 

Edited by Feuer, 26 August 2016 - 09:47 PM.

[bLackAngeL33]

I intentionally drop the damage to 500-1k to show that even with that damage if you total them you will still have higher damage compare on single target because you adding the damage inflicted on all individual earlier. thats why am asking you if who will have the greater effectiveness on this situation. Prior on update spear champ damage on individuals average from 2-4k and as of now it goes down to 700-2k. so think how effective this aoer will be to damage each individual with this damage. and each individual hp goes from 15k-40k. add up the heal from the fs.

 

I understand if they nerf a certain class or the burn but to nerf all aoer is kinda out of place. They already take out what they put on class description for champs.

 

for pvm, challenge still not enough... Can still do the max lure and kill them. thats why am encouraging people who is losing hope on their aoer char to not to give it up.

I will turn it around since they complain pvm is greatly affected and i checked still good. but in pvp where enemies thinks... is another story. (3) skill of aoer w/ 2k damage 1 heal and poof the magic dragon...

 

[DarkSideOfMoon]

Maybe we should stop filling up space with theories and assumptions.

I agree with Feuer, it needs brain to run dungeons as well as to run PvP. Also a random group of individuals will always be overpowerd by a well organized team, no matter what. Therefore some might always have the feeling that some others are "miraculously" stronger. The whole balancing nonsense, sorry but somebody who thinks a game can be balanced is dreaming. Player will always find ways to get around it. A completely balanced game would be very boring tbh. It is the spice of a game to figure out ways that work for you and/or your team. We cannot expect that the same technique which works today will work forever.

 

There might have been an issue with some AOE related skills in PvP. However I have not seen the classes that were supposedly overpowering  PvP having the same status in DG. In fact a big AOE blow, especially the ranged versions done on a nicely collected large mob in dungeon usually cause the mob to aggro. Often leading to suicide of the caster. Meaning the same technique that might work in PvP fails in PvM. That clearly shows, that nerfing AOEs in general was the wrong concept. An AOE class in PvM without support is nothing. That was the case b4 the patch and is still the same after the patch. When an AOE class is dominating PvP, solve it within PvP. I hope this could be worked out with some profound testing.

 

 

 

 

[CharasX]

Maybe we should stop filling up space with theories and assumptions.

I agree with Feuer, it needs brain to run dungeons as well as to run PvP. Also a random group of individuals will always be overpowerd by a well organized team, no matter what. Therefore some might always have the feeling that some others are "miraculously" stronger. The whole balancing nonsense, sorry but somebody who thinks a game can be balanced is dreaming. Player will always find ways to get around it. A completely balanced game would be very boring tbh. It is the spice of a game to figure out ways that work for you and/or your team. We cannot expect that the same technique which works today will work forever.

 

There might have been an issue with some AOE related skills in PvP. However I have not seen the classes that were supposedly overpowering  PvP having the same status in DG. In fact a big AOE blow, especially the ranged versions done on a nicely collected large mob in dungeon usually cause the mob to aggro. Often leading to suicide of the caster. Meaning the same technique that might work in PvP fails in PvM. That clearly shows, that nerfing AOEs in general was the wrong concept. An AOE class in PvM without support is nothing. That was the case b4 the patch and is still the same after the patch. When an AOE class is dominating PvP, solve it within PvP. I hope this could be worked out with some profound testing.

 

 

Will you deny that AOE classes were (and still are) completly dominating the PVM aspect of the game? And this, especially since they nerfed atk speed to the ground?

 

I do not believe you ll tell me otherwise, and that s precisely why AOEs had to be nerfed. You kinda prooved yourself wrong right there.

 

 

When it comes to your very personnal opinion that a game cannot be balanced... well, I guess you do not have much experience with mmos, because I do know several very well balanced games... and it works very nicely... hell... even ROSE was balanced at some point : this was pre evo and the games had 10ths thousands of players all willing to pay to play this game.

 

Edit : charm also was originally made to make casters less likely to aggro on tanks... but i believe this feature was removed from the game...like many... unfortunatly.

 

PS : about strong ranged AOES pulling mobs... I got 1 tip for u : kiting.

Edited by CharasX, 27 August 2016 - 01:21 AM.

[DarkSideOfMoon]

PvM is not about domination, it's about teamwork.

The group member in PvM don't work against each other. I don't get your point. If you feel dominated by AOE in DG, you are doing something wrong.