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#101 Feuer

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 07:09 AM

There is a lot of wrong information being posted here.

 

1: AoE in a group fight were absolutely over powered. I'm not talking theoretically here, statistically and in practice they were absolutely stronger in all group content cases. Given that all dungeons aside from SC and all PvP modes revolve around your entire team clustering at one location made this situation always true. That also means AoE always held a stronger position. A group of all AoE heavy classes against a group of all single target heavy classes would win an overwhelming majority of confrontations. Anyone who says otherwise is being intellectually dishonest or flat out lying. 

 

2: This is something that should have been expected. Go back and check the posts regarding balance over the last few weeks and you'll see a massive increase in the number of complaints with Mages and Bourgeois. Their common trait is ranged AoE's. The most common Champions played are Greatsword and Spear, both having between 4-6 AoE's. Seeing the signs yet? 

 

3: CHA never had any aggro effects in ROSE. There was a misleading tooltip from a very very early version of ROSE that mentioned aggro, but it was never actually implemented. The only effect CHA had prior to it's update last year and the buff update was it's effect on certain quest rewards. 

 

4: A game can be balanced and be fun depending on your definition of balanced. In the game industry the commonly accepted definition or meaning of balance is when all classes / professions of equal tier and player competence function within less than 5% variance in combat effectiveness. What that means is that it doesn't matter if you play a Champion, Artisan or Raider; so long as you have everything gear related, passives etc of the same tier, you'd do damage roughly within 5% or earn roughly the same amount of points or progression. That's also assuming both players are equally proficient. Getting those measurements is incredibly hard yes, but it's not impossible. The DEV logs will show a much more useful collection of information than the forums ever could, so basing absolutely everything on posts alone is a bad method for determining how to balance the game. 

 

 


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#102 CharasX

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 12:23 PM

There is a lot of wrong information being posted here.

 

1: AoE in a group fight were absolutely over powered. I'm not talking theoretically here, statistically and in practice they were absolutely stronger in all group content cases. Given that all dungeons aside from SC and all PvP modes revolve around your entire team clustering at one location made this situation always true. That also means AoE always held a stronger position. A group of all AoE heavy classes against a group of all single target heavy classes would win an overwhelming majority of confrontations. Anyone who says otherwise is being intellectually dishonest or flat out lying. 

 

2: This is something that should have been expected. Go back and check the posts regarding balance over the last few weeks and you'll see a massive increase in the number of complaints with Mages and Bourgeois. Their common trait is ranged AoE's. The most common Champions played are Greatsword and Spear, both having between 4-6 AoE's. Seeing the signs yet? 

 

3: CHA never had any aggro effects in ROSE. There was a misleading tooltip from a very very early version of ROSE that mentioned aggro, but it was never actually implemented. The only effect CHA had prior to it's update last year and the buff update was it's effect on certain quest rewards. 

 

4: A game can be balanced and be fun depending on your definition of balanced. In the game industry the commonly accepted definition or meaning of balance is when all classes / professions of equal tier and player competence function within less than 5% variance in combat effectiveness. What that means is that it doesn't matter if you play a Champion, Artisan or Raider; so long as you have everything gear related, passives etc of the same tier, you'd do damage roughly within 5% or earn roughly the same amount of points or progression. That's also assuming both players are equally proficient. Getting those measurements is incredibly hard yes, but it's not impossible. The DEV logs will show a much more useful collection of information than the forums ever could, so basing absolutely everything on posts alone is a bad method for determining how to balance the game. 

 

This isn't the topic, but on the charm thing, I do believe you are wrong Feuer. I do even remember players using level 90 charm characters to explore prison when it first came out because then mobs would not agro them (back then when it came to stat, it was a matter of stat / level ratio)... might also have been a bug... but whatever, not like it matters much. 

 

You are perfectly right on your 3 other points though.


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#103 CharasX

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 12:40 PM

PvM is not about domination, it's about teamwork.

The group member in PvM don't work against each other. I don't get your point. If you feel dominated by AOE in DG, you are doing something wrong.

 

When non AOE classes are discriminated and won't be invited into leveling parties or dungeons for endgame content, or that solo they would level 20 to 30 times faster than any single target classes I do think we can talk about AOE domination yes.

When certain classes can have 30 times more average DPS than others within one full dungeon run... I also believe we can talk about domination.

 

 

PvM should be about teamwork indeed, PvP too in fact, but the way ROSE is right now, it s all about playing and making groups of broken imba classes/builds and whinning as soon as it gets nerfed... and then jumping onto the next imba class/build to abuse the system. I do wonder how many of you are actually playing a class (or a build) because they like it... and not because it is the most efficient around. Reading about those players who were gearing up bourgs or mages ONLY because of how OP they were... well, that makes me smile. And please note that those classes are still on top of the DPS charts by far, even after the nerf.

 

PS : sorry for double post, I did see your post too late, and I m too lazy to edit


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#104 DarkSideOfMoon

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 04:29 AM

There is a lot of wrong information being posted here.

 

1: AoE in a group fight were absolutely over powered. I'm not talking theoretically here, statistically and in practice they were absolutely stronger in all group content cases. Given that all dungeons aside from SC and all PvP modes revolve around your entire team clustering at one location made this situation always true. That also means AoE always held a stronger position. A group of all AoE heavy classes against a group of all single target heavy classes would win an overwhelming majority of confrontations. Anyone who says otherwise is being intellectually dishonest or flat out lying. 

 

 

Cmon Feuer you can do CoU and SoD without casting a single AOE and its even much faster. For HoO maybe you need AOE for the boss room, but can also be done without AOE.

What use is the AOE class in a dungeon when the majority of your group wants to rush? Its zero!

 

Stays the issue at PvP, which in my opinion should have been solved within PVP and not with a general punishment.


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#105 Feuer

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 05:39 AM

You're talking about speed runs and ignoring cleaning/farm runs. AoE's are much faster as Clean + Farming runs. Single Targets are much faster at speed wastedqeues runs. 


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#106 QueenElizabeth

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 06:32 AM

Dungeon is not about just AoE or just Single target... dungeon is team playing.

Since I do dungeons we do it with a team... cleric, knight, AOE and single target player.

Everyone is needed in dungeon... and you are fastest and most effective, when you have all of those players in the team.

 


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#107 7057131117023218773

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 12:02 PM

Cmon Feuer you can do CoU and SoD without casting a single AOE and its even much faster. For HoO maybe you need AOE for the boss room, but can also be done without AOE.

What use is the AOE class in a dungeon when the majority of your group wants to rush? Its zero!

 

Stays the issue at PvP, which in my opinion should have been solved within PVP and not with a general punishment.

I definitely agree to this comment. +999 likes


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#108 DutchGamer

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 01:13 PM

Cmon Feuer you can do CoU and SoD without casting a single AOE and its even much faster. For HoO maybe you need AOE for the boss room, but can also be done without AOE.

What use is the AOE class in a dungeon when the majority of your group wants to rush? Its zero!

 

Stays the issue at PvP, which in my opinion should have been solved within PVP and not with a general punishment.

I totally agree on this one. Thanks DarkSideOfMoon!


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#109 Feuer

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 02:23 PM

Ho many of you who are complaining about the reduction in PvE Dungeon speeds play the following classes in those Dungeons:

xBow Scout

Gun Bourgeois

Gun Artisan

xBow Knight

Full BC [not a hybrid healer]

Axe Champion

or Sorcery Mage [pure sorcery]

 

^ Those are the classes, who are 100% excluded from PvM/Dungeons unless you're just stubborn and get used to being kicked from the Group. That's the problem, that's what this is aiming to solve. Because those classes/specs can't build AoE's. They're stuck focusing on Single Target DPS. And because of that they get kicked. Because AoE's were the dominant method. Everyone knows it. The method has been AoE the trash, auto attack the boss. Anyone who didn't conform would be kicked and mocked. AoEs were clearly stronger, you all know it, stop lying to yourselves. 


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#110 meocutduoi

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 05:13 PM

No one is useless if they're active.

xBow Scout/Gunbourg/Gun arti/BC/Axe/Mage have decent DPS.

xBow knight/xbow scout can help lure.

Axe champ can help AoE.

Every1 can help deal damage on bosses and can help loot (or make the run more funny by chatting :D)

I dont know how about other ppl, but we never kick any1 in dg (unless they're afk)

And i saw CharasX compare aoe classes with DPS classes =))). Each class has its job, imagine how slow a full aoe team kill bosses, compare with a full DPS team.

And again, definitely agree with QueenElizabeth & DarkSideOfTheMoon. Dungeon is not about just AoE or DPS, it's about team playing.


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#111 Feuer

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 06:46 PM

That's what it should* be about, and I agree with their sentiments. It doesn't mean that's how it's been. Yes, all of the classes I listed can perform some type of function, but again I asked how many of you actually play those classes in Dungeons regularly. Still waiting for an answer to that. 


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#112 amfutah

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 02:03 AM

Cmon Feuer you can do CoU and SoD without casting a single AOE and its even much faster. For HoO maybe you need AOE for the boss room, but can also be done without AOE.

What use is the AOE class in a dungeon when the majority of your group wants to rush? Its zero!

 

Stays the issue at PvP, which in my opinion should have been solved within PVP and not with a general punishment.

 

 

+10 


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#113 Nura

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 07:34 AM

No one is useless if they're active.

xBow Scout/Gunbourg/Gun arti/BC/Axe/Mage have decent DPS.

xBow knight/xbow scout can help lure.

Axe champ can help AoE.

Every1 can help deal damage on bosses and can help loot (or make the run more funny by chatting :D)

I dont know how about other ppl, but we never kick any1 in dg (unless they're afk)

And i saw CharasX compare aoe classes with DPS classes =))). Each class has its job, imagine how slow a full aoe team kill bosses, compare with a full DPS team.

And again, definitely agree with QueenElizabeth & DarkSideOfTheMoon. Dungeon is not about just AoE or DPS, it's about team playing.

 

True that :) the only kind of class which doesn't deserve to be in any dungeon is the totally useless 'AFK' class. My humble opinion. Otherwise we never kick anyone out too. 


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#114 wiwiedtm

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 07:56 AM

worst of them is the one who pretending AFK


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#115 7057131117023218773

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 01:43 PM

That's what it should* be about, and I agree with their sentiments. It doesn't mean that's how it's been. Yes, all of the classes I listed can perform some type of function, but again I asked how many of you actually play those classes in Dungeons regularly. Still waiting for an answer to that. 

I am new on this server and I've been in dungeons for quite some time now. I have a FS cleric and we (with friends) don't just kick non aoe characters unless they are AFK.


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