51 replies to this topic

[TurtleTuber]

If you mean me mate, I never said only invokers suffer from this. I said it's not good practice to use caps for class balance and especially in the case of this atk speed cap it's dumb cause like you say, it makes very little difference. If x-spam does too much damage, I'm sure there's some stat other than atk speed that could be changed to balance that...

didnt mean you

Edited by TurtleTuber, 10 March 2017 - 01:21 PM.

[Popcorn]

There is too many set mixed 

 

But who told you you need to mix the items and socket cards the way you get that high amounts of speeds? Who forced you to do that? I am sure it was your very own decision to do so right? 

 

 

 

And people - over and over again: ATK/MS speed cap was no balance patch. It was a needed fix for a technical issue. Period.

[Coolsam]

And people - over and over again: ATK/MS speed cap was no balance patch. It was a needed fix for a technical issue. Period.

I have to agree. It just unintentionally brought some changes to balance.

Also Best Unity I also agree is a perfect all around set of core stats. Still gonna be useful regardless of caps due to making it easier to hit said caps before focusing other stats.

Edited by Coolsam, 10 March 2017 - 01:44 PM.

[FeintsSiphon]

But who told you you need to mix the items and socket cards the way you get that high amounts of speeds? Who forced you to do that? I am sure it was your very own decision to do so right? 

 

This is called investment. Allow me to quote game's description

Dragon Saga’s combat is fast and intense so players need to master the unique attacks, combo chains and advanced skills of their class to stay on top. Multiple gameplay modes provide countless scenarios for combat and exploration, as players face off against massive bosses, explore mysterious dungeons or engage in PvP and Guild–on-Guild free-for-alls. Cash Shop items and a diverse pet system help players customize their experience, while social elements such as Player Matching make group play easier than ever.

 

Players have their own style playing, nobody forces but it's creativity and optimization when the game allows. Who cares whom invest what and nobody had told the limit of investment, even developers.

 

Now back to attack speed, this is a "powerful" stat thus it's very expensive to spend money on, and you should know why (or not). Upon observation, isn't it popular when you see a set of unity but with Wizard/Semi wings? What your answer is, I care too little what happens now.

Edited by FeintsSiphon, 10 March 2017 - 01:56 PM.

[Popcorn]

 but it's creativity and optimization when the game allows. 

 

That's the point. The game does not allow it - the former devs just didn't care. I am sure everyone knows the reason for that.

However, I won't discuss that further with anyone here. The decision has been made by the team - also the decision putting a hard cap in place has been made by the team. Like Alteris already told everyone who was interested in his video, the hard cap will stay as is for the time being. There is no other way no matter how hard you wish for another solution. There simply is none. As Alteris said, the development team (me for example) tried to find a better solution for weeks. For further information on the matter that is causing that problem feel free to make a google search about:

- physics tick rate

- server tick rate

- continuous collision detection 

- performance penalties with CCD

- multiplayer game tick rates

- server architecture and infrastructure

 

and then keep in mind that the engine and server software architecture is rather old and also the speeds were never meant to be that high. Theoretically these speeds are still too high. The game focuses on 300 MS as max and 200% ATK speed as max. But I worked a lot to make the current rates possible at all. This is really all what is able to be done. This game has been started to be developed in 2008 when machines were weak and the engine and server software is not able to scale.

 

I just want to state one last thing: We didn't want to cap anything - but we had no other choice. To state this clear: I am playing an Invoker and this is affecting my personal characters in the same way it affects your characters. I have to live with the problems the game has which can't be overcome in any other way and the decision the team made because of that.

 

You only have two options now: You can either continue wasting your time ranting about a thing that neither me nor anyone else is able to change or you just go into the game and have some fun while playing.

[eyes2kill]

This is called investment.

 

Correct XD. To me is more to do with what a class can do and maxed it to attain it's max potentials, with 1000's of dollars invested on this game alone, I believe the community as a whole, should not only be mad, but also adopt to the changes need it. Don't get me wrong. I agree with the changes that took place, but with the same token, I also believe that personnel with investment on both Devils agi and best unity should be gifted un-soulbound scrolls based on the parts they have on. Some people here rather kiss   the staff action (same people yawnnnnnn....), instead of stating their true feelings of the issue at hand.

 

By no means the changes were wrong, not complaining about them, what I was saying is the consequences that arrive from them xd. Game can always improve, just personal opinions that might needs considerations and facilitate gaming experience as a whole.

 

 

I think is time to lock this thread XD.

Edited by eyes2kill, 10 March 2017 - 02:29 PM.

[Popcorn]

 What your answer is, I care too little what happens now.

 

No, the answer is: The former devs and we gave the players a variety of stats and sets and items and socket cards to choose from - no one said "look for one specific stat and put every single item there is with that particular stat on one character".

 

The truth is many players picked exactly the 2 stats because they knew what they are able to do if they stack high enough. And most of you decided to follow the path of these people. That was your very own decision. 

 

Most of you guys were aware of the game breaking/abusive behavior of these high stacked speed stats: bugging through objects, lag walk, bugging out of debuffs, running in BSQ, invisible shots etc. With a bit of common sense you should have been aware that a time could come when people start reporting to the staff. And exactly at this point we have reacted and started to search a less impacting solution. All tries failed. There is none. The current Dragon Saga staff takes incoming reports very serious and does investigate them. This is something you asked for - a Dragon Saga staff which cares - but there are always 2 sides of a medal. Some reports are leading to solutions which aren't popular or wanted like this one. But finally we cannot only do things that are popular.

 

Long story short: Everyone has the right to get items with AS/MS. Stacking it that high was your very own decision. We only offer you multiple choices to pick the items you like the most out of a variety of different items. For example depending on the looks. If your choice was to use only items with a specific stat on it you can't blame us for that. 

 

Last thing I want to say regarding the current and future development: An MMO title always has the risk for the players and also for the developers that unpopular changes and adjustments have to be made. MMO games are constantly evolving, undergoing changes, adjustments, tweaking, bug fixes, system changes. This is also true for AAA titles not only for low budget titles.

 

With this said feel free to discuss further but for me personally further discussion makes no sense because I have said everything I had to say and wanted to say and the simple fact that I can't change the reality of game suffering from technical limitations.

I think is time to lock this thread XD.

 

If you want this topic locked please let me know. I can do so.

[Apocryphos]

Wow this thread blew up. definitely like the idea of reworking the best unity set as is I'm able to cap CR CD mspd and atkspd all without best unity so my really only viable choice is to go 2/2/2/2/1 for IM now, unless they plan on releasing a new non mspd/atkspd/health IM set that's actually viable.

BTW what choices there were no needs to compromise with how the game was set up, you simply stack mspd where it fit. mspd back vs defense back in an element environment, no choice but to go mspd defense was useless.. CD you cap it with CD cards and  soulcrafts. strength what for minuscule scaling, there just weren't many options to pick from. I'd like to see some range boosting gear that'd be a nice gimmick.

Edited by Apocryphos, 10 March 2017 - 02:49 PM.

[FeintsSiphon]

Since the issue is unforeseen, solution is inevitable, shall we not have a compensation? I mean not everyone suffers from the solution but it's rather called celebration so everyone would be happy with it. Kind of God set giveaway for example, it's relatively valuable item but better than nothing itself. It gotta be unfair but rather impartial.

Edited by FeintsSiphon, 10 March 2017 - 02:53 PM.

[Popcorn]

Regarding the STR stat - I posted the calculation formulas for PATK and PDEF and STR is part of that calculation. It might not be visible enough or impacting enough but it does it's job. One part of the problem is that the calculation or the results are not really visible for the player. The other problem are mistakes done by the former devs which we can't revert because it would change the whole game in an unwanted manner. For the STR example - it should increase the damage, it actually does but for a player with a +4 weapon it is noticeable, for a player with a +20 legendary it is not. The impact of the STR stat is not hight enough to be visible if the weapon damage is that high. On the other side doing STR calculations with the final value instead leads the game to a pay-to-win environment because the stat would just depend on how much cash someone invested - in other words: how high that person has soulcrafted and enchanted their weapon. A pay-to-win feeling is not good for the game's overall impression. People who invest might say: we have the right to have the higher damage amounts and to be honest it's already the case - they have. But due to the in-game rumor that STR is useless at all players do not invest in STR stats even though they might be non-paying players or players who are starting with game.

 

The stats Evade/Aim and Block got basically destroyed when the New Origin update came. Instead of completely destroying the Evade/Aim stats they should have tried to tweak/adjust it so that is useful in a way. Block for example is capped at 0 for every class except for Ninja and Knight. And this are really questionable decision because our team would have tried to find a better solution for these stats if possible than just simply disabling them. At this point I can't guarantee that these stats can be made useful but not game breaking or balance breaking again. I also can't say if we would have had found a better solution in the past. But I can assure you that we at least try to find solutions before making a highly impacting decision. At the moment there is a lot of work already but there will be the day Aim/Evade and block need a revamp and when that time has come I would like to hear ideas how to make it work in the most uncomplicated way, fair for every class, not game breaking and as objective and unbiased as possible. 

 

With this said I go into my weekend. Have a good one.

 

 

 

 

[eyes2kill]

Wow this thread blew up. definitely like the idea of reworking the best unity set as is I'm able to cap CR CD mspd and atkspd all without best unity so my really only viable choice is to go 2/2/2/2/1 for IM now,

Agree. Some changes was due and the changes that took place was for the best. However, the backlash will always be there, it happens to every MMO, we have to adopt to it. Although, it would be nice if the staff takes into consideration some of the outcome from the changes on the IM side effect XD.

[Coolsam]

Although, it would be nice if the staff takes into consideration some of the outcome from the changes on the IM side effect XD.

Staff's Intention When Releasing these items according to Popcorn: We want to make sure there are alternatives to core attack and movement speed items.

Let me just state, that some classes actually do better with a proper combination of stats rather than dumping all chips into one. Overlord can do hybrid as/ms fine and keep good cd/cr/hlt. Savage can rock hybrid ms/hlt. Sentinel actually has a good non-max ms build option list.

All of these can be done with the new caps in mind. These big IM sets stats actually will keep all usefulness and value.

[TurtleTuber]

Please never ever make PvP luck-based again with stupid evade/block-rates. How can this be wanted? How is PvP gameplay-related if every skill you cast has a high chance to fail? It was good that these stats got killed.

 

To the MS/AS thing. If just all classes could have there natural advantages through buffs at AS/MS everything would be fine.

 

You guys say agile classes can build MS lower and invest in other stats. But thats not really an alternative. AN archer would still do way better in PvP having 60 MS more than a mage than having the same MS as his opponent and therefore 60 HTL more since the Invoker needs to land only 1 single freeze and then you are gone anyways, regardless of 60 HTL more. But with the natural MS advantage you have at least the chance to dodge skills like this. Capping the MS for all classes at the same level is just imbalancing.

Edited by TurtleTuber, 10 March 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[qweweqweqwq]

How about instead of whining about archer's as/ms cap just focus on adapting and getting better at it. its not like you guys use chain combo to catch people anyways most sentinels/destroyers dont and has the mentality of why use chain combo to catch when i can use shootdown to catch more easily. this cap was actually good to focus more on skill based pvp instead of just jumping and running around and use shootdown rinse repeat you better get good son instead of whining all day and one last thing if they remove the flinch on chain combos that will be really nice.

have a good day everyone just my opinion.

Edited by qweweqweqwq, 10 March 2017 - 05:05 PM.

[Apocryphos]

Someone doesn't play here, they removed flinch from chain combo a long time ago bud. You're free to have your opinion but elevating your game play or talking down on other player's game play to stroke your ego doesn't exactly put you in the limelight.

Sniping was op when elements weren't prominent and people stacked evade/aim rate(They had less health [AND CD wasn't capped and was twice it's worth reaching 1000%CD]) Now with galaxia elements and evade/aim rate CD and CR being capped, health becomes a larger factor and a larger defense pool along with mdd and pdd.

Destroyer was a class that scaled well with stats, but "fixes", "nerfs" and "caps" totally destroy it's scaling.

 

Edited by Apocryphos, 10 March 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[Coolsam]

500% Critical Damage and maxed critical rate actually do well when you're the high scaled destroyer. Critical Hits, not too well known to players, ignore a % of target defense. This was the way around tanky builds in the past, This is why Sniping stayed consistently high in damage even against PoS.

A player who pulled (and possibly revived) previous big attack speed based maneuvers on Destroyer and seemingly managed well during unkillable max res mage meta in the past could possibly do the same tricks and handle the same at 300% attack speed. After all, the OP here concluded himself to show 0 signs of any issues lag wise in previous topics and videos on his YouTube channel.

I may not be the best Destroyer player but I can say that with good team support it will still be a good secondary dps option as it was when compared to Summoners. You could move a few gear pieces and sockets, like others have, and put what you had to sacrifice for that ms/as.

Edited by Coolsam, 10 March 2017 - 07:24 PM.

[Coolsam]

I may not be the best Destroyer player.......





That's about right, also you need to work on your mirmy skills, I can recall you doing better as a priest, so maybe is the class you should focus on. Just personal opinion.


Apocriphos hit all the main points, sooooo.... lets get new IM sets and forget everything else xd.

How about you make a new topic then speculating and discussing new setups (Both regular and IM) recommended to the classes hit hardest by this then to help your fellow player adapt like I might begin theorycrafting to do instead of derailing a post off-topic to insult pvp skills of a player for the umpteenth time.

[Precrush]

They can't give people tons of free stuff whenever something changes, you should understand that. They also can't really limit other classes to 300 or 350 ms, since that'd make the players of those classes very unhappy as it could no longer be justified by the game breaking argument. And I can with 100% confidence say that best unity wont get any buffs, even though it's in no way up to me. So you can just forget about all of these.

Both sentis and destroyers are still fine to play, this patch didn't really result in significantly more imbalance in the game, just changed the classes to be a bit differently imbalanced. How about you wait for actual balance fixes.

Edited by Precrush, 10 March 2017 - 09:23 PM.

[Agitodesu]

I may not be the best Destroyer player.......

 

Play nice here buddy

Edited by Agitodesu, 10 March 2017 - 09:09 PM.

[Apocryphos]

You are aware that not a single skill has been changed of any class?

Yes, other than the poor excuse of flashbang being used in the air (yet prematurely detonates) or instant cast fire grenade(Obsolete due to n2 ammunition), caused bomber (with a negligible debuff) or even moonwalk no longer scaling with mspd (the distance)

You want to tell us that only the speed cap makes a class unusable?

To an extent yes if you mess with what the class scales on it becomes highly inefficient, essentially stripping it's only redeeming factor, not limited to aspd and mspd but cd and cr are subjected to this as well.

That implies that the game breaking behavior of this class due to the high speed was more impacting than we ever thought. This was considered as an OP class - just due to the game breaking behavior?

Considering this class OP is only subjected to a few players tbh, its very underwhelming understacked it's barely viable and can even be a deterrent in team pvp simply cause all of it's skills do not provide any CC and in addition launches players out of group locks.

I remember that people told us that the sniping skill is way too OP for PvP and should be adjusted. And now you want to tell me that just because this class is "slower" the skill is suddenly not OP any more even though AS and MS has not any impact on this skill? Very interesting.

It was OP when people didn't stack health because they were focused on agility and evade making the damage it'd normally do take a larger portion of it's HP back then, not to mention cd and cr weren't capped and were worth double there current value along with lower defense value from pre galaxia.. The bread and butter of the class scales on Aspd and the position for them is also helped severely by mspd by closing/opening gaps in-between players. Not having enough attack speed could leave you open for prolonged periods of time before sniping actually occurs, not having enough mspd leaves you open with nothing to deter players.In short destroyers is the most effected by this change.

Also no one complained when all classes were uncapped in speed and could have all the same OP speeds. No matter if it was Invoker, Gladiator, Thief etc.

Cause classes with mspd passives still had an edge of some sort.

Another interesting point is that there are opposite opinions on this class posted in 2 different topics from different persons.

Yes I know the staff doesn't care about how long a player's been playing whether they're new or not, so they have their own opinions but do they have reasons why? Yet all I find on forums are a select few players who aren't anonymous.

Edited by Apocryphos, 10 March 2017 - 10:01 PM.

[eyes2kill]

xd

 

I don't think that you should continue reasoning on this topic, I do agree with every point you made, so far. Only a hand full of people can understand and most likely start to make personal objections, instead of trying to fix the problems. But people here seems to take things personal quickly, even when one tells them some off their weakness and some of their strong suit, they think is personal.

 

You did a good job in your first thread, it was concise, self explanatory, hit all the major flaws and compare job skills. What else need to be said?

 

 

I actually think the topic needs to close lol.

[qweweqweqwq]

All you want as a destroyer is ohko people where is the fun in that? And you're saying sniping is not op even today? A player w/ a higher def than a destroyer's atk can still hit the guy w/ higher def like a truck be it w/ or w/o element as long as the destro has good fcr which is easy to stack on destro. The way sniping works is just very different compared to other offensive skills even an overlord that is stacked to the max can't outdamage destroyer's sniping when they are basically the "burst" class and one last thing they didnt removed flinch on chain combos it still works.

Edited by qweweqweqwq, 11 March 2017 - 12:31 AM.

[Fliederduft78]

Only the flich effect of the first combo hit of the chain combo of every class has been removed on community wish for PVP. This has been done shortly after fast x attack was added to the game.

 

Edit:

In PVE it still has flinch all the time.

Edited by Fliederduft78, 11 March 2017 - 01:55 AM.

[TurtleTuber]

How about instead of whining about archer's as/ms cap just focus on adapting and getting better at it. its not like you guys use chain combo to catch people anyways most sentinels/destroyers dont and has the mentality of why use chain combo to catch when i can use shootdown to catch more easily. this cap was actually good to focus more on skill based pvp instead of just jumping and running around and use shootdown rinse repeat you better get good son instead of whining all day and one last thing if they remove the flinch on chain combos that will be really nice.

have a good day everyone just my opinion.

 

shotdown spam will happen even more now, since its necessary to keep all the tanky/ offensive classes away from you because you cant outrun them anymore. I wont even blame archers anymore for using shotdown these days. It will become normal to use it vs every other class. I never used it as a catch back then because it was way too easy to land and had way too much dmg. But when classes become so imbalanced i will use it all day.

 

If you want too win every 1o1 today just create an invoker or a Dragoon. Since you are as fast as everyone else you can easy CrossCut catch them with its large range, ChainCombo stun catch with the huge AoE, you got Impervision so you want fall and so on. There will be no escape. Only way to keep them away will be to spam shotdown and to play defensive as hell since CrossCut will hit you easy.

 

They should have set a cap at 300ms with the exception that buffs arent affected by the cap. This way every class would keep their natural MS advantage.

Edited by TurtleTuber, 11 March 2017 - 04:32 AM.

[Apocryphos]

All you want as a destroyer is ohko people where is the fun in that? And you're saying sniping is not op even today? A player w/ a higher def than a destroyer's atk can still hit the guy w/ higher def like a truck be it w/ or w/o element as long as the destro has good fcr which is easy to stack on destro. The way sniping works is just very different compared to other offensive skills even an overlord that is stacked to the max can't outdamage destroyer's sniping when they are basically the "burst" class and one last thing they didnt removed flinch on chain combos it still works.

Clearly we're not playing the same game, and how did you come to that conclusion? and are you even playing in endgame? I've got plenty of attack like 36k and people with 30k def can tank like 20+snipe hits of crits(if all of them crit), I've seen overlords 2 combo players and they aren't exactly dps restricted to elements like priest cause once ya have resist vs a priest its nearly impossible for the priest to kill you.
 

Only the flich effect of the first combo hit of the chain combo of every class has been removed on community wish for PVP. This has been done shortly after fast x attack was added to the game.
 
Edit:
In PVE it still has flinch all the time.

First Combo really?
Overlord's finching pushback fine example of first combo flinching?
Only first combo? Here is a pic where i go through the entire chain combo summoner doesn't flinch.

Destroyer's Sliding Kick the kick prior to the launch does not flinch despite it not being the first combo?
I am very happy they managed to keep flinch in pve though.
 

shotdown spam will happen even more now, since its necessary to keep all the tanky/ offensive classes away from you because you cant outrun them anymore. I wont even blame archers anymore for using shotdown these days. It will become normal to use it vs every other class. I never used it as a catch back then because it was way too easy to land and had way too much dmg. But when classes become so imbalanced i will use it all day.

If you want too win every 1o1 today just create an invoker or a Dragoon. Since you are as fast as everyone else you can easy CrossCut catch them with its large range, ChainCombo stun catch with the huge AoE, you got Impervision so you want fall and so on. There will be no escape. Only way to keep them away will be to spam shotdown and to play defensive as hell since CrossCut will hit you easy.

They should have set a cap at 300ms with the exception that buffs arent affected by the cap. This way every class would keep their natural MS advantage.

Someone's been reading the thread properly. I had a similar idea in the first thread they hid/deleted.