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#26 ServX

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:19 PM

[2: Clerics are lame because I have to run around in Item Mall and Event items and have no defense.
Answer: You're Clericing wrong, buff with the buff-set [that's why it's called the BUFF-SET] and swap to normal gear with healpower augmentations. ]

 

The fact remains the same, just because something was a certain way in the past, doesn't justify it continuing. Change for the better, in another phrase. Another armorset (craftable? maybe not) focusing directly on charm where buffers don't need to switch gear seems extreme but this is a time for change. Maybe Genesis and co can review the idea and adapt it into something usable and not broken. 

 

+1

 

PS: Can I just say a hearty well done so far to the devs for the recent updates. We await your continued vision of Orlo, Karkia and Skaaj... after some rest, of course :)

 

if you say it needs to change let's start with that...  charm dosent give you anything in stat no def no dodge no nothing

only makes your buff stronger right?
and the gear for it is -_- right ?

you know like me that in battle you cant switch gears... and i think that system of switching need to change also ... why i cant stay with the same end game gear with Charm stat and decent defense on it ? 100-200 defense points idk

make a normal gear that gives charm and great defense or change the system back to that you need only INT to make buff stronger then i max it and the rest put on STR that can give some decnet defense points  and make the charm useless as it was
i dont really know how to say it ... but the switching thing is aweful done.... maybe it will be good if i can switch gear in battle with X button like other games and not entering item bar and select one by one
if you do a swtiching it needs to be with a switching system that will work properly with a singel button let's say you can pick what gear it will switch then you just press that X button its more comfortable way of playing
also the methood of Restat... when you do a Restat .. you get bunch of points and need to click 500K times on a single stat to max it...... why not make a button or simple way that i can max one stat put all the point there insted of clicking like a mad man and rape my mouse by clicking so many times
this is really not a proper way to put the point back
as you can see there is a lot to change that's my opinion how to make this game more fun and comfy


Edited by ServX, 23 April 2017 - 07:22 PM.

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#27 thetrangdamvn

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:39 PM

Well, if you're only after the look, then use it on your costume tab.

Simple as that.

There's no reason to start the thread from the beginning.


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#28 Tleliaxu

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 01:28 AM

eh? trang, are you okay?


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#29 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 04:25 AM

if you say it needs to change let's start with that...  charm dosent give you anything in stat no def no dodge no nothing

 

 

Wrong~

 

CHA gives

 

Critical Defense

Heal Power

Buff Increase

Debuff Increase

DoT Increase

HoT Increase

 

 

It's one of the most broken and over powered stats in the game. It doesn't give you 'nothing but buff increase'.

THIS, is why I said you're a noob, as in, you're a novice. You lack enough knowledge to conclusively make a proposal. You can make one, but expect it to be correct, modified, interjected on, thrown through the wash, and tested to see if it holds up, since you cannot do those things yourself. 


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#30 Cortiz

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 04:26 AM

if you say it needs to change let's start with that...  charm dosent give you anything in stat no def no dodge no nothing

only makes your buff stronger right?
and the gear for it is -_- right ?

 

 

 
Improves effect of buffs and heals for clerics
Improves effects of self buffs of all job classes
Improves effects of status down skills
Increase Crit defence for all job classes
Increase DoT ???
 
 
With and without buffset... I dont see the problem...

 

149cw1v.png


Edited by Cortiz, 24 April 2017 - 04:27 AM.

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#31 ServX

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 05:48 AM

wow guys ... i ment it dosent give anything from the stat menu
attack

accuracy
critical
defense
dodge
magic defense

i means in thouse stats ... i know it gives buff power in every aspect
but in the end its only on charm, why not make it only INT?
so the buffer could put some on str and get some defense so he could survive in some PVE battle

what about my other suggestions that i posted here ?


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#32 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:19 AM

Because running around on a INT Champion would be retarded. 


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#33 DoubleRose

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 09:49 AM

Substats offer more options and combinations of options. When you get a charm substat you get that AND another substat, both of which are stronger than their respective gems. It makes no sense for them to be straight up stronger than gems and more versatile. Even if the op of this thread made the thread for personal reasons and made his argument as such the fact still remains that from a design standpoint gems shouldn't be made unviable.

 


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#34 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:08 AM

Gems aren't unviable, they're perfectly viable, especially given the ease of gems being obtained. Gems, as they've been for the last 3+ years easily, were meant for new players to obtain, then to start saving/collecting sub-stats in which you would replace the gems with. 

And you're right, there are far more combinations of stats, then there are gems currently, that also means they take significantly longer to get the exact stats you want. When it comes to gems, you craft the exact gem with the exact stats you want, but getting a max-stat roll on sub-stats doesn't guarantee you get the ones you want or need. Case en point, Unique max-stats in Dungeon Rewards. Err go, Sub-stats, the ones you specifically are after, are purely RNG, while gems are on demand craftables. Err go, the gems are weaker. 

 


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#35 DoubleRose

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:04 AM

There is little demand for gems because they are weak, so lots of chems and hearts are floating around the market which makes it "easy" to get a gem. It's not actually easy because you can fail crafting a gem, especially in the past few years now that crafting success rates have fallen.

 

I think gems (not just b7) should be as strong as a single substat. They would still be outclassed by the duality of maxed substats which means they still fit into your vision of gems being part of a budget/f2p build.

 


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#36 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:40 AM

ok hold on a second there bub, you're saying that a D7 is weaker than a 30 AP? Or a 40 AP. Cause that's ENTIRELY dependant upon who's using it. 

 

Sub Max [former 30AP]

D7 5% + 10

Base AP: 400 -that's INCREDIBLY LOW BTW- = 30 AP on D7.

Base AP: 700 -much more realistic number- = 45 AP on D7

 

Now, if you're something like say my Cannon Artisan

 

Base AP: 877

D7 gives 53.85

 

So no, some G7's ARE still stronger than even the NEW single line max subs. If that's your argument, consider it defeated. Granted, I only used 1 example, but trust me, MANY of the G7's are stronger than a single line max stat, even the new single line maxes. I simply used D7 as an example. 


Edited by Feuer, 24 April 2017 - 11:41 AM.

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#37 Tleliaxu

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:37 PM

It took me nearly 20 sec to figure out why Feuer was spelling ergo as "Err go". The en point also made me think there was  a French equivalent. This is what happens when you get off good hospital drugs. (Is there? Someone get on that, stat.)

 

Feuer is right about the versatility of charm and the progression from hard-and-easy gems to the rough-and-tumble of substats (with runes thrown in there as value-added progression and to keep us killers and dungeonrunners busy)

 

Charm in and of itself doesn't give hard combat stats besides crit def. We know this. However, this doesn't mean they're useless in combat, as every DoT katar knows. What the OP is suggesting is something new inbetween, some path using armor based on both charm gear and regular armorsets. Is it necessary? We can argue for both sides.

 

As rightly mentioned, Charm ties FSs down to being buffslaves and reduces their PvM combat tactics to "activate buffgear, buff, activate battlegear, flame on, heal, res where needed, remove debuffs where needed". PvP tactics are generally more interesting, depending on teamwork, arena type and number of teammates, but generally there's still little differentiation into healer-clerics and buff-clerics.

Clerics, in other words, want their cake and to eat it too. I think there are a number of reasons for this, one among them being they perceive themselves as weak.

 

This notion disturbs and offends me. My cleric is not weak. To me, she is my sentinel, the last guardian and keeper, the character I rely on to keep everyone safe, to provide escort in dangerous maps (looking at you, Fossil Sanctuary). She is my pride and a symbol of strength for me. But to achieve this strength I had to reduce her base Charm and create a hybrid INT/STR/CHA build.

 

Clerics, you need to understand that there is honor in poverty, in not having everything your way. For everything there is a cost, a price. Even if it's just opportunity cost, to pay that price is honorable. To have strong buffs at the expense of powerful PvM resistance is honorable. It is a good thing. I can't have the compassion, altruism and love necessary to be a cleric if I don't believe in that honorable exchange, that SACRIFICE. Because that is what we are. We are the Sacrifice. Not kings and queens like the arrogant katars think themselves, not godlings. Not the vanguard either like knights, for even in their sacrifice there is a belief in their inherent strength, and a type of hubris.

 

Remember when we had +69 stats? That competition, that hubris between clerics? Remember how clerics without it were called noobs with 'noob buffs'? How did that make them feel? Were you ever one of those called that? How did it make you feel?

 

 

Now, having said all this, it's worth investigating this idea of armorsets fused with buffgear, just in case this could be a profit centre for Warpportal. Maybe Valor armor + IM spin + ??? token  = this new armorset. In the end it's about player experience and hard realworld cash. If we can enhance both we should look into it.

 


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#38 Snuwfer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:48 PM

ok hold on a second there bub, you're saying that a D7 is weaker than a 30 AP? Or a 40 AP. Cause that's ENTIRELY dependant upon who's using it. 

 

Sub Max [former 30AP]

D7 5% + 10

Base AP: 400 -that's INCREDIBLY LOW BTW- = 30 AP on D7.

Base AP: 700 -much more realistic number- = 45 AP on D7

 

Now, if you're something like say my Cannon Artisan

 

Base AP: 877

D7 gives 53.85

 

So no, some G7's ARE still stronger than even the NEW single line max subs. If that's your argument, consider it defeated. Granted, I only used 1 example, but trust me, MANY of the G7's are stronger than a single line max stat, even the new single line maxes. I simply used D7 as an example. 

 

You know that the only reason why it's viable is because the amount of AP % passives Bourgs\Artis have.

You go straight D7, where is your critical rating going? Wheres your accuracy gone down to? What kind of broken backwards logic is it to theorize a gem that is going to stack with class passives, in order to make an argument against sub stats... throw 40 AP 25 Con, BAM, THROW 25 STR, 40AP, BAAAAM!  MORE AP\CRIT\DEF\HP THAN A D7

 

Yes, cha is the most OVERPOWERED stat in the game. That doesn't mean you get to bash Grade 8 or the idea of buffing Grade 7 gems to hell, hardly change the Beryl[7]s or if you were to make Beryl[8]'s, they surely could nerf the hell out of it so it's less Cha than 40 cha, EASILY LOL.

 

It's like saying I'm going to go full G7 in a raider for PvM and take up all of my dex to dodge passives, etc.

Does this give me more dodge than a raider with sub stats? It may, but does it make me stronger, overall more balanced out? Hell to the no.

It'd also be silly to go full D7 on an bourg over R7\S7 because of how passives work for them.

 

 

 

Going D7 route on an arti is absurd, and abysmally inefficient, 40 cha 40 ap will SLAP every single gem combination you'd use on an Arti, in every single way.


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#39 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:55 PM

You do realize BASE means nothing but the white AP text of your Gear and your Chars DEX/STR/INT etc right? That DOESN'T factor into passive you dink. 


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#40 DoubleRose

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:56 PM

Feuer, d7 is the outlier and you know it. Base stats go up to 425. 5% of a base stat is going to be around half as effective as 5% ap.

 

It would be fair to say that p7 is also an outlier because attack speed substats got nerfed. It is a legitimate case of a gem being stronger than its equivalent substat and by a wide margin. Interestingly enough, p7 isn't the clear best choice. Running Critical +60 / Attack Speed 2.25% may give better dps. Even when gems are stronger than substats they don't clearly outclass them.


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#41 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:01 PM

Actually, D7, PO7, O7, J7 and several others all work the same way. :| I figured you'd try to pull that line, and if you keep toting it, I'm going to post more numbers proving it. So drop the bad argument and get a good one, or I'll prove myself right, again.


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#42 Snuwfer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:08 PM

You do realize BASE means nothing but the white AP text of your Gear and your Chars DEX/STR/INT etc right? That DOESN'T factor into passive you dink. 

Please, elaborate on what you're trying to say because I am stumped how putting more into Base AP doesn't affect AP passives.

 

 

Feuer, d7 is the outlier and you know it. Base stats go up to 425. 5% of a base stat is going to be around half as effective as 5% ap.

 

It would be fair to say that p7 is also an outlier because attack speed substats got nerfed. It is a legitimate case of a gem being stronger than its equivalent substat and by a wide margin. Interestingly enough, p7 isn't the clear best choice. Running Critical +60 / Attack Speed 2.25% may give better dps. Even when gems are stronger than substats they don't clearly outclass them.

I've actually tested this

 

Dex 25 w/ Attack speed 2.25% is much more DPS than a P7 raider


Edited by Snuwfer, 24 April 2017 - 03:09 PM.

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#43 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:39 PM

27wr38g.png

 

Ok, Here's the break down.

 

Base AP: 877

I have exactly 69% in AP from passives

[30% + 30: Cannon AP Dealer] [20% Artisan] [5% Iron] [4% in Misc Honor Passives] [10% Clan Passive]

(877 * 0.69) + 30 = 635.13

 

This means, Passives, do not factor in Equipment AP Stats, ONLY, your base stats.

 

Special Note, I'm using:

Rift Boomer +150 AP: Doc Arms +55 AP w/ 30 AP Subs [Equipment Bonus, 235] Same as the tooltip, this means, Equipment Bonus AP, isn't checked against AP Passives, it's purely a static bonus.

 

D7's, work in the following way.

 

Base AP [in this case 877] multiplied by .05 [decimal values of 5%] plus 10 static.
This is then, placed into the 'Equipment Bonus'.

So what does all this tell you?
That D7's do not get any bonus from AP Passives, as they're an equipment value, and equipment values are not passed through the Passives system.

 

 

.....

Does that answer your question. 


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#44 DoubleRose

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:48 PM

Actually, D7, PO7, O7, J7 and several others all work the same way. :| I figured you'd try to pull that line, and if you keep toting it, I'm going to post more numbers proving it. So drop the bad argument and get a good one, or I'll prove myself right, again.

 

These "outlier" gems aren't viable. Stuff like d7 was good for a generalist jewelry set before item locking, but with new gems and substats it will always be outclassed by specialized builds. It doesn't matter if it gives a little more ap than the ap substat because the ap is just half of the stat. Why would a mage use a d7 when spell power is straight up better? Why would a raider take ap over melee damage or crit damage?

 

All you've proven is that you think substats should be stronger than gems. You'd like gems to fade into obscurity which is probably going to happen because the devs have forgotten about them or would rather see them go. That's your opinion just as how I think gems should be made better.  Having gems makes it possible for new players to make money off drops, but if artisans are crafting either way getting the IM involved through hammers would help keep the game running. It's a trade-off that we won't be the ones to make.


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#45 Snuwfer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:51 PM

27wr38g.png

 

Ok, Here's the break down.

 

Base AP: 877

I have exactly 69% in AP from passives

[30% + 30: Cannon AP Dealer] [20% Artisan] [5% Iron] [4% in Misc Honor Passives] [10% Clan Passive]

(877 * 0.69) + 30 = 635.13

 

This means, Passives, do not factor in Equipment AP Stats, ONLY, your base stats.

 

Special Note, I'm using:

Rift Boomer +150 AP: Doc Arms +55 AP w/ 30 AP Subs [Equipment Bonus, 235] Same as the tooltip, this means, Equipment Bonus AP, isn't checked against AP Passives, it's purely a static bonus.

 

D7's, work in the following way.

 

Base AP [in this case 877] multiplied by .05 [decimal values of 5%] plus 10 static.
This is then, placed into the 'Equipment Bonus'.

 

877 x .05 + 10 = 53.85

So what does all this tell you?
That D7's do not get any bonus from AP Passives, as they're an equipment value, and equipment values are not passed through the Passives system.

 

 

.....

Does that answer your question. 

 

 

Yeah, and you've further proved my point how far behind Grade 7 gems really are.

You're willing to give up 40 cha 40 ap sub stats for a measly 53.85AP while in FULL ap gear? It just doesn't add up or make sense to have the gems the way they are now, they could definitely use the change.


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#46 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 04:04 PM

Actually, I'm going to answer both of your questions at the same time.

 

AP, Scales DoT's higher than CHA does.

Not only does it do this, but AP applied globally where as Melee AP or Skill Power [both brought up by example] only benefit one method of damage. While in cases of things like say a Mage, Skill Power is 90% of the damage they deal, Skill Power does NOT increase a Fire Mages Burns. Not only this, but due to how Skill Power is multiplied off your total AP stat, and depending on the type of Mage you're using, some Ultra High Scaling Skill Power Skills actually benefit more from AP than they do the extra 5% + xxx skill power, mostly in specific circumstances.

Mages aside, even though it was still relevant to them, Most classes still use both forms of damage. Skill Casting and Auto Attacks, normally woven together and whichever is the stronger is preferably cast/allowed to cast more often. AP benefits both of those methods, and makes it harder to counter a build based on AP vs a single type focus. Dual Raider or Mage being annoying and spamming skill? Mute them. While it may hinder the Mage significantly, a Dual Raider has decent enough Aspeed that the AP being applied to their auto-hits until the Mute expires, will help to counter that action. Playing a Melee BC and some annoying Dual Raider is spamming Freezing Assault on you? Having some raw AP will help with the Skill Casting you're most likely going to now be doing. As it will not only augment the few offensive skills you use, but will increase the Burn's DoT on Hellfire. 
Etc etc, many many circumstances can be presented where AP can prove to be beneficial if you don't like being entirely countered. Think of it as a Balance build, much like how Enhance Damage is, except not quite as potent. [Which is arguable since Enhance no longer provides static values but I digress].

 

Look, the point is while Malachites and Spectrolites may increase more Skill Power or Melee AP than a Diamond will, the Diamond applies to both. And how one builds their characters is up to them. Think of it as the AP being Skill Power, DoT Power, and Melee AP rolled into one stat, because that's exactly what it is. 

 

Something I do want to bring up, is that you both keep honing in on any one statement, and ignore the encompassing factors that all weigh in together to provide Balance.

Example the whole Spectrolite being more valuable for a Skill type Build. Except, that's not always the case, because the argument is more nuanced than that. Skill Caster, even Mages, sometimes need Damage sources that Skill Power doesn't provide. Liek for DoTs, or if you're Muted, hitting something with your stick. And even in those most extreme examples, it's true. To what importance you can go ahead and argue all day, the fact remains that in the broader more nuanced debate, AP is important for Skill Types, Melee Types, and everything in between. It doesn't have to be as powerful as a single method focused gem, because it does a bit of everything. 


Edited by Feuer, 24 April 2017 - 04:07 PM.

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#47 Snuwfer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 04:11 PM

Actually, I'm going to answer both of your questions at the same time.

 

AP, Scales DoT's higher than CHA does.

Not only does it do this, but AP applied globally where as Melee AP or Skill Power [both brought up by example] only benefit one method of damage. While in cases of things like say a Mage, Skill Power is 90% of the damage they deal, Skill Power does NOT increase a Fire Mages Burns. Not only this, but due to how Skill Power is multiplied off your total AP stat, and depending on the type of Mage you're using, some Ultra High Scaling Skill Power Skills actually benefit more from AP than they do the extra 5% + xxx skill power, mostly in specific circumstances.

Mages aside, even though it was still relevant to them, Most classes still use both forms of damage. Skill Casting and Auto Attacks, normally woven together and whichever is the stronger is preferably cast/allowed to cast more often. AP benefits both of those methods, and makes it harder to counter a build based on AP vs a single type focus. Dual Raider or Mage being annoying and spamming skill? Mute them. While it may hinder the Mage significantly, a Dual Raider has decent enough Aspeed that the AP being applied to their auto-hits until the Mute expires, will help to counter that action. Playing a Melee BC and some annoying Dual Raider is spamming Freezing Assault on you? Having some raw AP will help with the Skill Casting you're most likely going to now be doing. As it will not only augment the few offensive skills you use, but will increase the Burn's DoT on Hellfire. 
Etc etc, many many circumstances can be presented where AP can prove to be beneficial if you don't like being entirely countered. Think of it as a Balance build, much like how Enhance Damage is, except not quite as potent. [Which is arguable since Enhance no longer provides static values but I digress].

 

Look, the point is while Malachites and Spectrolites may increase more Skill Power or Melee AP than a Diamond will, the Diamond applies to both. And how one builds their characters is up to them. Think of it as the AP being Skill Power, DoT Power, and Melee AP rolled into one stat, because that's exactly what it is. 

 

Something I do want to bring up, is that you both keep honing in on any one statement, and ignore the encompassing factors that all weigh in together to provide Balance.

Example the whole Spectrolite being more valuable for a Skill type Build. Except, that's not always the case, because the argument is more nuanced than that. Skill Caster, even Mages, sometimes need Damage sources that Skill Power doesn't provide. Liek for DoTs, or if you're Muted, hitting something with your stick. And even in those most extreme examples, it's true. To what importance you can go ahead and argue all day, the fact remains that in the broader more nuanced debate, AP is important for Skill Types, Melee Types, and everything in between. It doesn't have to be as powerful as a single method focused gem, because it does a bit of everything. 

40 cha 40 ap does it better in every single aspect (crit def, and the 40 cha 40 ap will scale a dot higher than baseline AP D7)

pierce def gems help high skill power skills more than a D7 will

the scenarios you're putting of a mage getting debuffed\muted isn't in line with what we're discussing.

you're not going to the DPS level 240 gems\sub stats net in by using D7, S7, R7, etc, you will fall behind.

you're not going to be as tanky as sub stats either, you will fall behind miserably.

 


Edited by Snuwfer, 24 April 2017 - 04:18 PM.

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#48 DoubleRose

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 07:28 PM

One gem being viable in specific situations does not equate to gems being in an ok place. Having a generalist build to cover losing matchups isn't even the best strategy. A mage isn't going to win against a mute no matter what the build. They'll do a little more while muted, but on net it's a loss.


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#49 Feuer

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 07:46 PM

So are we now weighing the gems viability in specific scenarios or not. Before, you were both putting up single instance examples of certain things being stronger than these G7's, but soon as I do it, we're not looking at single instance situations? 
Also, somehow, we've managed to migrate comparing G7's to level 240 socket specific gems, when the thread's OP was talking about max subs. Which I would also like to point out something we haven't discussed.

Max Subs are, roughly what, level 160 min? G7's not too long ago were able to be crafted at like level 50, and now we have 240 gems.

 

Based on that order, I'd certainly say Gems < Subs < Slot Gems < Runes. 

Which, I'm just going to curb one point, you can't craft G7's with anything under roughly level 200 ish and still retain a decent success rate. But, it is still possible. And the amount of chems, dirtys and materials in genera; to craft gems, start dropping from level 1 onward. Simply leveling or farming, with or without a drop set, will get you enough chems to craft a G7 gem. But you can't exactly do that with Subs. Certainly you can go hunting for 240 gems, but then again, you're hunting end-game content? and Runes? Lmao, yeah, those are beyond end-game. 

 

Either way, I've personally had enough of this thread, as it feels like I'm debating several people who simply don't care about game progression logic, and want everything to be equal, which destroys progression. But whatever, go on ahead. I'll peek at your responses, but at this point, that's all I'm getting. You want it all to be the same, like when buffsets existed. Gems, Subs, Runes, who cares right, they're all the same. 


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#50 DoubleRose

DoubleRose

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:15 AM

If a gem's value is x

If a substat's value is x+1+y

making the gem x+1 still isn't making things equal. It's making gems usable. There's still progression. But you can keep acting like substats are somehow super hard to get compared to gems and deserve to better. Scrolls and reroll hammers make them quite easy, especially since we get free reroll hammers at least once a year.

 

I said d7 and a couple other gems work differently from the stat gems and explained how they are still outclassed even though that is the case. I was showing that there is progression so I don't understand why you're freaking out, but that's what happens when you keep reading just part of my comments.


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