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Rocket Punch needs a rework


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#1 Vossel

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:24 AM

Like the title says, Rocket punch is one of the most buggy stuns in the game, you can cancel him already while he pulls the glove out and you still get stunned, this skill is so unbalanced right now.

 


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#2 Bustincaps

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:22 PM

I disagree completely. This skill is very easy to avoid and the only thing good about it is how reliable the stun rate is at lvl10. As far as cancelling the skill during the casting animation goes, this is caused by lag and not the skill itself. Almost all skills in the game are capable of replicating the issue you're referring to. What you see on your own screen can either be a couple milliseconds or even seconds faster or slower than what the other person sees on their own screen due to things like internet connection and host location in comparison to your own. This game has some of the most responsive gameplay I've ever found in a game and that is one of the downfalls of its responsiveness; lag can be more noticeable. While it might have looked like you canceled it on your screen, that may not have been the case on their screen. They might just have a better connection to the server than you, or you simply "cancelled" it too late.


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#3 Vossel

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:42 PM

i disagree with your very easy to avoid, since it can stun you even when both people wonder how it hit and the rocket punch surely stuns already before the thief 'shoots' the Glove, which is not reasonable in any case. The Stumblebum from the Overlord, it can be canceled while the scream animation and those circles come out and the enemy still wont get stunned. (this sounds always like i only care about Overlord but i can only give good examples from Overlord).


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#4 Nobility

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 01:38 AM

IDK what u're doing to cancel people's rocket punches but if you do it correctly, u won't get hit by it at all. A well timed stun if landed first will make it so the glove animation passes right through u where u could also completely cancel it out through flinches (given that it lands first aswell, otherwise ur skills will pass through them). However, if u r to use a knockdown such as cutdown or gust and they use their punches at the exact moment, both players will get hit by eachother's skills. 
 
In terms of balance,RP isn't even that great of a catch when u have people jumping around with 400mspeed. Using RP against any good mage guarantees a free meteor hit for them, for nins free daggers , for savage free FD , for DKs free xcut , for OL free incoming bear , for sentis free shootdown/rising arrow and last but not least free snipes for destros (drakans don't care, they have meat shields). 
 
As for wat u've said about the stun hitting b4 the glove animation comes out, this only holds true if u r dashing to dodge. It's a hitscan similar to incoming bro where as long as u were in range of it firing, it will connect regardless. However most players don't dash to dodge. With 400mspeed, all u need to do is jump and move in any direction u want and it will never hit unless u urself get predicted and walk into one. The crazy trick shots that stun outta nowhere however r a result of lag where nothing can really be done about that. Hope this clears up the problems u've been experiencing with the skill. 

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#5 Onyzer

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:12 AM

 

 It's a hitscan similar to incoming bro where as long as u were in range of it firing, it will connect regardless.

 

The problem is that it should stun only when the Rocket Punch reaches the target, not if the target was in the area during the casting time. Because of this I sometime find myself stunned by the Rocket Punch really far away from the place it should have hit me. I actually agree with the OP on this matter.

And the stun duration is long enough that if you try to stun the player while he is casting Rocket Punch instead of trying to run uselessly, he ends up starting his combo whatever because your stun duration is shorter.


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#6 Nobility

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:34 AM

The problem is that it should stun only when the Rocket Punch reaches the target, not if the target was in the area during the casting time. Because of this I sometime find myself stunned by the Rocket Punch really far away from the place it should have hit me. 

It's only hitscan if the enemy dashes where they'll still be relatively close to the user of the punch. Most people don't dash and just run so it's easily avoided. What u and the OP r experiencing is completely different since I doubt u guys r dashing to avoid it. Wat u guys r experiencing is lag. What u see on ur client is different from what ur opponent sees where to compensate for this, the server allows for the laggy player to land insane hits from accross the room (an extreme case) sometimes since that is where they see u. Test the skill out urselves, it's not an issue at all if no one is lagging. Another skill that has a similar behaviour is invo's barbarian except mspeed won't help u at all when it comes to escaping it, unlike RP where it does. 


Edited by Nobility, 18 July 2017 - 02:35 AM.

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#7 TurtleTuber

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:34 AM

Its no hitscan like incoming bear. you can jump over the rocket punch after it got casted and is flying towards you. thats no hitscan.

 

also i think if rocket punch hits you before the glove "appears" it might be a result of lag from what you see and what your opponent sees. same like barb hitting you when you were in the air or totally out of range.


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#8 Nobility

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:37 AM

Its no hitscan like incoming bear. you can jump over the rocket punch after it got casted and is flying towards you. thats no hitscan.

 

also i think if rocket punch hits you before the glove "appears" it might be a result of lag from what you see and what your opponent sees. same like barb hitting you when you were in the air or totally out of range.

Hitscan for only for when they dash. With enough mspeed as u said, people can just jump over it so it isn't problematic in any way. 

 

LOL, we made the same point about barb. 


Edited by Nobility, 18 July 2017 - 02:38 AM.

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#9 TurtleTuber

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:42 AM

hitscan when who dashes? dont think theres a system which turns a skill into a hitscan/ instant hit skill when it detects that the opponent is dashing


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#10 Nobility

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:44 AM

If ur opponent tries to dodge a rocket punch by dashing, it will hit them regardless as long as they were in range of the casting of the skill. It may be due to dashes being significantly slower than if u were to just run with 400mspeed. 


Edited by Nobility, 18 July 2017 - 02:45 AM.

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#11 TurtleTuber

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:45 AM

pretty sure that its lag. i can dodge rocket punches with normal and diagonal dashes. sometimes it happens that you might get hit but n the most cases not


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#12 Nobility

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:48 AM

If u want, i can show u in-game right now, just PM ur IGN. Otherwise, test it out uself. 


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#13 Vossel

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 03:14 AM

To explain how dashes work: If you start to dash, the server saves your position where you start, and if you finish the dash it overwrites your position but during the dash you stay on the same position

thats why you cant dash out of some skills


Edited by Vossel, 18 July 2017 - 03:18 AM.

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#14 Popcorn

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 03:38 AM

That is not quite correct. The positions are synchronized several times with a fix synchronization rate. If the ping is too high a prediction is used instead and that is the problem.

 


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#15 TurtleTuber

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 04:07 AM

exactly. i dashed away from enoughg skills in the past.

 

problem here are lags and delay. i cant even jump out of stormblade / wyvern and if i do it at my screen the second stormblade / deathgrab still hits me. there will be always problems that are problems because of lag and are no problems with the skill itself. thats pretty sad tho. hope one day it will be possible to play in a lagfree environment.


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#16 Nobility

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 04:25 AM

problem here are lags and delay. i cant even jump out of stormblade / wyvern and if i do it at my screen the second stormblade / deathgrab still hits me. there will be always problems that are problems because of lag and are no problems with the skill itself. thats pretty sad tho. hope one day it will be possible to play in a lagfree environment.

which is exactly wat ive been saying all along where vossel has failed to even realise that, despite him making a post that directly suported wat i was saying of how RP isn't an issue in itself. Instead, it's the external factors such as movement and lag. A lot of games have wat's called lag compensation which results in wat the he and several others have experienced.Wat one sees on his client may not be the same on another's client. Failing to understand that and making a thread to rework a perfectly fine skill is a big no no. We're trying to progress the game forward, not back. 
 
If u want to play in a lag free environment , move to the host country or pray we (society) come up with a scientific breakthrough to make it possible. 

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#17 TurtleTuber

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 04:35 AM

some one got a room for me? time to change the country


Edited by TurtleTuber, 18 July 2017 - 04:35 AM.

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#18 Vossel

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 04:43 AM

so you are telling me the people should work around the skill with getting more MS to be able to dodge it since dashing is not working properly or move closer to the server?

Why should the people change for the skill to be able to work properly against it, why not find a way to make it possible for all to work propely around it?

I dont say its a bad skill or so, i just say its bad the way it works right now


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#19 TurtleTuber

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 04:48 AM

well tbh, it never happened with RP to me here. Only that i get hit out of range in general regardless the skill (RP, CrossCut, Barb, Stumble). for RP its often just enought to move up or down to dodge it (if you arent standing directly infront of the opponent).

 

changing the behaviour of a single skill wont fix the problem in general. Dragonsaga should think of ways to make the game less laggy. Doesnt affects PvE that much but for PvP they should think about a fix.


Edited by TurtleTuber, 18 July 2017 - 04:50 AM.

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#20 Popcorn

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 05:09 AM

Okay we can fix the lag: We allow only people to join PvP with a ping of 60ms and below. This means we would exclude whole EU and SEA. Deal? Please forgive my cynical behavior but before you guys try to tell us what we have to fix inform yourself about network infrastructures.

 

There are two ways of lag removal:

- lag compensation (aka network prediciton) - we have this and this is what you always see

- regional servers (no point of discussion because of several reasons)

 

Why do you think AAA titles have always regional servers like EU, NA, SEA? Because it's fun for them to install and maintain lots of servers in lots of regions? No, it's to keep players from the same region on the same servers to prevent lag.

 

The people who posted that the behavior of the skill is based on the prediction (because of lag) are right.

There are two options: live with it or don't play PvP because we have no chance to fix that. On a server where people are playing from all over the world having ping times from 17~450ms there is no way of preventing this, except for excluding whole regions from participating in PvP which would literally be all except for NA or in other words which would be the majority of the whole player base on this server.

 


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#21 TurtleTuber

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 05:27 AM

Acording to my computer it says i dont have a high ping at all and when i pvp with player from my country who also dont have a high ping we still encounter lag. Also in other AAA shooter games hit detection still works good even if the team got a 80+ ping.

Many people arent playing anymore because of the lag and the delay. I think DS would have way more player if they find a solution for this. Some people even avoid to play certain classes like ninja because its too affected by lag. That shouldnt be the case.
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#22 Popcorn

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 06:08 AM

We can't find a solution.

Btw, Germany has at least 100+ ms ping, usually 150~ 200. This is high. 

Please inform yourself about network infrastructure.

 

What happens if you play with people from your region?

 

- You attack. The client sends the info about the attack to the server located in California -> that takes for ex. 150ms.

- The server sends back the info to the player just sitting right of you on another PC -> that takes another 150ms.

 

So the whole thing took 300ms for the player sitting directly next to you. It does not matter if anyone is 10km away or 50km or just 1m. The data is sent to the server and back which means that if someone is sitting directly next to you using the same ISP/Network it tooks the double of time to synchronize.

 

Don't tell me anything about networking unless you're a "Fachinformatiker für Netzwerktechnik" and I doubt you are.

 

About the AAA titles. You can't compare a server created in 2016 with a server created in 2008 which is the case for the DS server infrastructure.

The game has been set up to be published regionally by different regional publishers. And before one could re-work all the server infrastructure (don't think it's only one server) one could better develop a Dragon Saga 2. 

 

 


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#23 TurtleTuber

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 06:19 AM

well maybe its worth to put some work into the game. from what i can see quite alot people are buying IM. if you can reach more people and get old people back it means more profit over time.

 

also i dont know why you use german technical terms in your post.


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#24 Agitodesu

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 06:25 AM

I suggest to just play around it, rocket punch is one of those skills that is hard to hit in general. No one would want to walk into it, if you get hit it's clearly your fault. If you stuff your face inside of a shotgun your gonna get rekt no matter what. Ping or not it's a very linear skill and should be simple to dodge, put yourself in a room with someone and try to let a ninja only rocket punch you all day, you might as well never get hit. It probably shines best within a combo so it hits with a high percentage.

 

Maybe popcorn will work on those general skills somehow later. I mean rocket punch is being complained but cross map barbarians are no joke either.


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#25 Precrush

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:47 AM

If we ever want to have a healthy pvp scene outside of group pvp (where the chaos makes all of this less significant), we will need some sort of solution to the lag problem. I say healthy because it can be made active with good enough incentives and balance, but with just that the lag will likely lead to quite a bit more of toxicity, and many people playing pvp solely for what ever they'd get from there (not the worst thing in the world, but certainly not the best either).

 

Just have to come up with a clever way to alleviate the problem. I think I've said giving each class a combo breaker skill or changing an existing one in to such would fix problems with locking, but it would make getting caught in a way that feels unfair be less punishing as well. That's not a complete fix, but it would help. Not even saying that should be done, just something that came to my mind as an example. And this wouldn't fix lag walking either.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that if the team wants to make pvp rooms active then I agree something should be done. Options are limited and certain people borderline trolling doesn't help, but I believe there to be ways to make it work. Other option would be to ignore this and revive it just with the incentives (ranking & rewards). The third option is to leave pvp rooms as they are. Can't say which would be best, only which one I would wish for, but that wouldn't matter anyway

 

My 1v1 pvp experience is from the eu servers so can't say much on rocket punch on particular. Back then it wasn't really a problem but then again everybody had better ping.


Edited by Precrush, 18 July 2017 - 07:50 AM.

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