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Magicians' healing nerf feedback


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#1 Onyzer

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 12:48 AM

Hello everyone,

 

Here I will say my opinion on the nerf of Magician's healing.

 

To me, it is still way too strong. Magicians in BSQ still have time to recover all their missing HP during your death, which means you come back and everything you've done before is meaningless. Healing should be a way to last longer in fights, not a way to last indefinitely.

 

Simple example : Yesterday I played a BSQ, it was 10 Magicians / Summoners against a few Magicians / Summoner (let's say like 3) and the rest was Warriors / Thieves / Archers. We never could get a single flag for 20 minutes.

 

Now my suggestion is either to increase the cooldown or to nerf again the healing power. Then healing will be something that gives you the opportunity to last longer but not forever.

 

Another suggestion is to disable the instant mana consumables in BSQ. The strength of Invokers, not to say they are still way too OP, comes from all the magnet they can throw as if it was nothing.  Which results in a battlefield covered of Magnets. Also, the maps are narrow, which makes Magnets even stronger and almost impossible to dodge sometimes. If the instant mana consumables are disabled in BSQ it would make Magnets limited and then you'd need to think about your Magnets before using it randomly cause whatever you're gonna get another in 30 seconds. 

 

Also, I was wondering what's the plan with class balancing ? Do you plan to try to make all classes equivalent, or every class will have its own role ? Because making them equivalent sounds impossible to me, and making every class having its own role will reward the diversity in a team. I mean, it saddens me to see everyone building Magicians / Summoners because they are OP and not because they like these classes.


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#2 testg

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:14 AM

I assume you mean lvl 81 bsq from your description. I agree the heal nerf is not ideal but it did do a lot of balance along with increase cooldown of wide heal. Also, when the priest or sorcerer are now locked they are not able to out heal the dmg from multiple players like before. This is very good news. Again it could be better.

I can agree with instant mana conshmable being banned but not many priest even use it so if you are looking for an effective nerf look elsewhere but it does not hurt to try. in 81 bsq you are up against very competitive players. Some of them are the best in their class (arguable) and some are just happen to be priest so i can understand the frustrations as i dont think any of these nerf can stop a skilled player. also, i think you may be too focus on priest as i feel sorc in large number is much more dangerous.
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#3 Precrush

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:37 AM

As an invoker I strongly disagree on the notion that instant mana items would be made unusable. Running out of mana is just not fun. Besides your logic on that is flawed, there is already a very core mechanic in games to limit usage of certain skills besides mana, and that's called cooldown. So if for example specificly magnets usage rate would need to be cut, the cooldown is what should be the first thing to look at.

Can't say much on the heal nerfs, been a bit busy lately. But magnet spam has become much more bearable after the last nerfs for sure.
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#4 Onyzer

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:48 AM

I assume you mean lvl 81 bsq from your description. I agree the heal nerf is not ideal but it did do a lot of balance along with increase cooldown of wide heal. Also, when the priest or sorcerer are now locked they are not able to out heal the dmg from multiple players like before. This is very good news. Again it could be better.

 

I agree, but the fact is that you have to set up a really, really effective crowd control to catch them (talking about many players in a crowded BSQ)  and have the time to kill them before other Magicians come and with their OP CC just cancel everything. Plus, the best way to catch many people at once quite easily is to play a Magician / Summoner class. So it's a vicious circle : Mages / Summoners are OP -> What's the best way to counter them ? -> Playing Mages / Summoners.

I can agree with instant mana conshmable being banned but not many priest even use it so if you are looking for an effective nerf look elsewhere but it does not hurt to try. in 81 bsq you are up against very competitive players. Some of them are the best in their class (arguable) and some are just happen to be priest so i can understand the frustrations as i dont think any of these nerf can stop a skilled player.

 

With all the Magnets that I see in BSQ I dare to think that most of them are using it. And my point on this thing is to highlight quality over quantity. Using an effective skill should be something you have to think about, and not just use cause you're gonna get it back soon.

 

also, i think you may be too focus on priest as i feel sorc in large number is much more dangerous.

 

Sorcerer is also quite too strong in my opinion too. One sorcerer can lock a lot of people long enough for one Summoner to kill them all. But at least, alone a Sorcerer can't do much.

 

Here are the reasons (in my opinion) why Invokers are way too OP :

- Same Movement Speed as everyone -> Can run away as fast as everyone or chase someone properly

- Second best DPS

- Can escape easily with Blink -> As Sorcerers, they are the best at escaping from a combo while being the best tanks

- Best Crowd Control : - Can catch MANY people instantly with Barbarian (Plus, one of the skills that lags makes better)

                                     - Can lock properly MANY people with Chain Lightning / Spark Rock / Wraith of Heaven / Magnet / Barbarian (Plus the Quagmire / Witch's Curse which disable you from running away even if you succeed in escaping all this) 

- Can Cure many debuffs at once -> Netbind, Quagmire ? Not effective on them.

- Can heal enough to recover all its HP before you come back after death. Also enough to reach 100% HP while running away.

- Can disable people from being effective for quite a long time (Witch's Curse / Quagmire)

 

My answers are in red and bold.


Edited by Onyzer, 17 August 2017 - 01:49 AM.

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#5 Onyzer

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 01:57 AM

As an invoker I strongly disagree on the notion that instant mana items would be made unusable. Running out of mana is just not fun. Besides your logic on that is flawed, there is already a very core mechanic in games to limit usage of certain skills besides mana, and that's called cooldown. So if for example specificly magnets usage rate would need to be cut, the cooldown is what should be the first thing to look at.

 

I think that Mercury MP Potions (4500 MP / 10 seconds) are enough to avoid being out of mana. Also, if I suggested this restriction is to prevent too many Magnets per "life" because currently Invokers can stay alive for a whole match.


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#6 testg

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 03:25 AM

After further thought i dont agree with ban of instant mp consumable not that it matters if popcorn and staff decide to change it, but mana burn x summoner amount will destroy all hope of mp recovery especially in large pvp. I think to ve honest rather than nerf, it would be best to buff other class at this point. For example remove cast time of stumble for ovl so they have a good cc that is unique, increase stun duration of fb now or change projectile range and aoe, for ninja passive evade rate per lvl or something similar.

Truly theres not much else to nerf on priest and summer, they have been nerf so many time but not that bad where they are unplayable only unskill players will have much trouble and it just takes practice. If u want to nerf magnet use then increase awakening cost is the best method even though it is already high.
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#7 Onyzer

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 05:23 AM

Truly theres not much else to nerf on priest and summer, they have been nerf so many time but not that bad where they are unplayable only unskill players will have much trouble and it just takes practice.

 

That's the point. They've been nerfed many times but they are still unbeatable.

 

Also, about the fact that "unskilled" players won't be as effective as the "skilled" players. I agree, but to re-use the example I already used with yesterday's BSQ 10 Magicians / Summoners against mixed team. In these 10 Magicians / Summoners I'd say 50% of them weren't that experienced. I don't wanna sound offensing or contemptuous but seeing "unskilled" people winning just because they have the right class isn't fair.


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#8 Onyzer

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 06:34 AM

Here is a proof that Invokers being OP is abused in BSQ :

NCYKKOd.jpg

 

Also, just realized Slow Heal has only 5sec cooldown for a 30sec duration. Which means they can be under this skill 100% of the time. Give it some real cooldown please like 1min.


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#9 testg

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 08:10 AM

I would not use the word abuse so loosely everyone in this game seems to be abuse the use of the word abuse. This is abuse etc. kind of sick hearing it. Also your ss does not show anything of abuse. But agree slow heal need appropriate duration like 40 sec.

Also hp% death buff for heal class need to be addressed but who knows. There are players who get naked in bsq to die and get this buff. That is example of abuse. Check umbryphos video on youtube. There was a player who constantly do this and still always.

Edited by testg, 21 August 2017 - 08:11 AM.

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#10 zekiel6

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 08:14 AM

i agree on this. magicans healing power on slow heal and wide heal is still too stronkh. cooldown and healing amount could get both a nerf again at the same time. also the damage that magic classes deal is too stronkh in my opinion. removing element damage from all classes x attacks would be a good start in the right direction.


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#11 testg

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 08:32 AM

i agree on this. magicans healing power on slow heal and wide heal is still too stronkh. cooldown and healing amount could get both a nerf again at the same time. also the damage that magic classes deal is too stronkh in my opinion. removing element damage from all classes x attacks would be a good start in the right direction.


I disagree with magic dmg too strong except for dark knight on summoner. I think the dmg frequency of mages is much too fast so dmg need to be lower accordingly for ele.
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#12 Onyzer

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 01:45 AM

Also your ss does not show anything of abuse.

 

The main purpose of this screenshot was to make some people react. Cause many people on the forum don't play BSQ, and the Staff doesn't either. I invite the Staff to come visit some crowded BSQ, and note that this is always the same scenario. Magicians rule the game, time to react.


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#13 zekiel6

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 02:23 AM

I disagree with magic dmg too strong except for dark knight on summoner. I think the dmg frequency of mages is much too fast so dmg need to be lower accordingly for ele.

 

sorry, thats what i mean. their attack frequency is too fast. diffusion canon and helix shot for example. together with element damage at every hit they kill 200k HP in 4 seconds. summoner and invoker die very slow and their damage is crazy high. same with sorcerer they die even slower and their damage is also totally crazy even though they dont use xspam but only skills. the damage of the other classes is just too low to beat a team of mages and summoner.  :sob: 


Edited by zekiel6, 22 August 2017 - 02:25 AM.

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#14 IncestBorn

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 03:53 AM

As an invoker I strongly disagree on the notion that instant mana items would be made unusable. Running out of mana is just not fun. Besides your logic on that is flawed, there is already a very core mechanic in games to limit usage of certain skills besides mana, and that's called cooldown. So if for example specificly magnets usage rate would need to be cut, the cooldown is what should be the first thing to look at.

Can't say much on the heal nerfs, been a bit busy lately. But magnet spam has become much more bearable after the last nerfs for sure.

No, no and no.

 

We don't need magnet and for certain is the most abuse aspect of bsq trolling. Most times high bsq 85 will have 7 to 10 priest and what we do is just stand still, someone use magnet, when that one goes out the other priest use it and continue with the spam. 

 

Healing is the one thing no priest need in any pvp or bsq, and yet pretending to do some lowering on the healing does no one any good, cause we still have 4 different heals active. This has been brought up countless time and still no good changes comes up. Why? cause the priest is the most use character in game and I believe the main reason developers leave the priest untouched.

 

Fighters were doomed after the elements and I doubt they will do anything to the priest, cause pretending 50% healing reduction will be fair is just plain and simple erroneous. 


Edited by Changename123, 22 August 2017 - 03:56 AM.

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#15 Precrush

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 04:05 AM

No to what specifically? Nothing you said contradicts anything I said.

But saying invokers have been untouched is a little unfair since they have received the hardest nerfs so far, whether those are enough is an another thing.
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#16 Popcorn

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 05:52 AM

and I believe the main reason developers leave the priest untouched.

 

 

Once someone said "developers will leave the summoner untouched because it is the most played class in-game". The summoner has not been left untouched. The invoker has not been left untouched. Where did I mention that we are done with the class balance? I remember me saying that we balance the classes with a "scalpel" and not with a chainsaw. There is no need for false assumptions. I can extend the list of saying like "haste makes waste" and what not. Also I have more things to do than PvP balance only. We have to work on the upcoming events, we have to work on the next Episode for Arcadia, we have to work on getting the tools working, we have to work on the unstable patcher. And we are no "small team of 80 people" for this game like an AAA studio has. It's just me working on the code but I thought you realized that in the meanwhile.

 


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#17 IncestBorn

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 07:27 AM

Once someone said "developers will leave the summoner untouched because it is the most played class in-game". The summoner has not been left untouched. The invoker has not been left untouched. Where did I mention that we are done with the class balance? I remember me saying that we balance the classes with a "scalpel" and not with a chainsaw. There is no need for false assumptions. I can extend the list of saying like "haste makes waste" and what not. Also I have more things to do than PvP balance only. We have to work on the upcoming events, we have to work on the next Episode for Arcadia, we have to work on getting the tools working, we have to work on the unstable patcher. And we are no "small team of 80 people" for this game like an AAA studio has. It's just me working on the code but I thought you realized that in the meanwhile.

I was not referring to summoners, I think that class although a bit heavy on damage, is ok as is, with the exception of removing the knight from pvp. And when I said developers, it meant exactly that, the continues development through the years from different parties involved, I was not referring to you as a personal development, it meant as the continuation of not been able to get the priest healing factor out of bsq-pvp to make things even. I know that I don't need healing x4 or magnet, to have a balance class.

 

I also know you are working on other things, if you asked me, it takes more people helping out in order to get some sort of stability. Not blaming you specifically, if that's what you referred to.


 

No to what specifically? Nothing you said contradicts anything I said.

But saying invokers have been untouched is a little unfair since they have received the hardest nerfs so far, whether those are enough is an another thing.

No to instant mana, no one needs it, same with instant hp, with the exception of regular potions. No to more cooldowns, instead add more skill to the skill tree to make classes even, and we don't need a trolling skill such as magnet, were groups abuse it constantly.


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#18 Popcorn

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 08:38 AM

 

I also know you are working on other things, if you asked me, it takes more people helping out in order to get some sort of stability. Not blaming you specifically, if that's what you referred to.


 

 

 

I think we can be happy to even have the chance that someone can work on the game. Korea dropped the development 2014, what do you expect? Also the game does not only consist of PvP. 


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#19 Infin1te

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 10:54 AM

Here is a proof that Invokers being OP is abused in BSQ :

 

Also, just realized Slow Heal has only 5sec cooldown for a 30sec duration. Which means they can be under this skill 100% of the time. Give it some real cooldown please like 1min.

 

jdtRvep.jpg

 

Oh look, here's a picture contradicting your "proof" of invoker dominating BSQ.

 

I'll point it out as it could be unclear, left side has more invokers than the right but yet they still lost by a large margin. I guess having a team of more invokers than the other side does not guaranteed victory.

 

Since the top scoring classes on the winning side is sorcerer, should we start nerfing sorcerer? lol. Main point is, you can't show a picture and say here's proof of something when that's one scenario and each scenario consists of different people with different skill levels playing those classes.

 

Invokers already received multiple nerfs and magnet abuse is hardly a problem when the cooldown has been increased quite high compared to what it was originally. Have you ever played a mana-hungry class like invoker and walk into the AoE circle of a mana burn by a summoner?......................Instant MP consumables takes time to farm so the user actually has to spend effort to get them instead of walking up to the NPC and dropping a few gold to get a stack.

 

Invokers got nerfed quite a bit and they are much easier to kill now. There was a time when invokers had full capabilities in BSQ with maxed defense, maxed element resists(before element balancing), instant heals, emergency exit, magnets with lower cd and working at 100%

 

You may say "lets nerf heals altogether in BSQ". Why not just ban mages altogether, that'll solve all your balancing problems with mages.  :heh:

Slowheal cannot outheal a team that's dpsing hard on a locked target. If your team actually has any cooperation, a caught mage will die quite easily. If the mage doesn't die, it's either gear setup, conflicting elements, no teamwork, other side has better cooperation, or you're trying to 1v1 the flag holder (god knows why, bad teammates probably).

 

*waiting for someone to argue that both teams consists of summoners/invokers/sorcerers*

 

Each class has specific roles to play in a group pvp and if the player does not know their role and how to use their class, it becomes less effective.

Ie. archers and ninjas launching everything. The learning curve just happens to be quite low initially for these 3 classes.

 

In your screenshot I see that you're using a pathfinder, just so you know, a pathfinder can infinite lock down the flag holder. But if you're trying to DPS instead of support cc/lock and then the enemy flag holder, well that's all on you.

 

Finally, instead of always looking at stuff to nerf nerf nerf, maybe other classes could use some buffs so they're more fun to play. The classes all have different learning curves by the way. "That time when Pallies and Ninjas dominated BSQ". Also it feels a hell lot more rewarding to have the odds stacked against you and win but maybe you want those easy wins.


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#20 Agitodesu

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 10:59 AM

Thats true. That bsq consists only of mages rip pvp.


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#21 testg

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 11:56 AM

I think we can be happy to even have the chance that someone can work on the game. Korea dropped the development 2014, what do you expect? Also the game does not only consist of PvP.

Yes praise the developer for being hired and to do the job to get paid for. Just because a person is not completely starving does not mean they not are not hungry. We player want more developer more staff to do the work and update the game faster and make it better with more experience and knowledge. To me this is not wrong. It is expected from the community.

Agree with the game not only consist of PvP. We need more staff to handle this to get the result players want. More new content and dungeons and new ideas is very important also.

@infinite

That picture shows all mages. This proves that mages for that bsq are the best option to play as i witness it all the time also. This is why other class should get great buffs to their skill and maybe new feature and not worry too much about if the skill is too op. Instant stumble for ovl is not op at all compared to that. Same with 4 sec flashbang. Bring back roach life and barricade for dragoon since that was nerf before ele dmg was hugely used. Etc
Etc.

Edited by testg, 22 August 2017 - 12:04 PM.

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#22 Onyzer

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 12:43 PM

jdtRvep.jpg

 

Oh look, here's a picture contradicting your "proof" of invoker dominating BSQ.

 

I'll point it out as it could be unclear, left side has more invokers than the right but yet they still lost by a large margin. I guess having a team of more invokers than the other side does not guaranteed victory.

 

I never said it was a guaranteed victory if you have more Invokers. I just said that Invoker was the most used class in BSQ because it's by far the strongest.

 

Since the top scoring classes on the winning side is sorcerer, should we start nerfing sorcerer? lol. Main point is, you can't show a picture and say here's proof of something when that's one scenario and each scenario consists of different people with different skill levels playing those classes.

 

The majority-of-Invokers-scenario is not unusual, if you play 80+ BSQ you should know it.

 

Invokers already received multiple nerfs and magnet abuse is hardly a problem when the cooldown has been increased quite high compared to what it was originally. Have you ever played a mana-hungry class like invoker and walk into the AoE circle of a mana burn by a summoner?......................Instant MP consumables takes time to farm so the user actually has to spend effort to get them instead of walking up to the NPC and dropping a few gold to get a stack.

 

So if something is OP but you need to farm for it, it's okay ?

 

Invokers got nerfed quite a bit and they are much easier to kill now. There was a time when invokers had full capabilities in BSQ with maxed defense, maxed element resists(before element balancing), instant heals, emergency exit, magnets with lower cd and working at 100%

 

Invokers being nerfed in the past doesn't mean they are balanced yet.

 

You may say "lets nerf heals altogether in BSQ". Why not just ban mages altogether, that'll solve all your balancing problems with mages.  :heh:

Slowheal cannot outheal a team that's dpsing hard on a locked target. If your team actually has any cooperation, a caught mage will die quite easily. If the mage doesn't die, it's either gear setup, conflicting elements, no teamwork, other side has better cooperation, or you're trying to 1v1 the flag holder (god knows why, bad teammates probably).

 

A team without enough Magicians / Summoners won't be able to out-control an only Magicians / Summoners team. 

 

*waiting for someone to argue that both teams consists of summoners/invokers/sorcerers*

 

Thanks for waiting. Both teams consist of Magicians / Summoners, because they are the best classes at CC / DPS / Surviving. Which means the best way to counter a Magicians / Summoners team is to have a Magicians / Summoners team.

 

Each class has specific roles to play in a group pvp and if the player does not know their role and how to use their class, it becomes less effective.

Ie. archers and ninjas launching everything. The learning curve just happens to be quite low initially for these 3 classes.

 

Nobody can launch an enemy in the air because it would mean less damages from Magicians / Summoners. We are in a meta in which everyone has to adapt their gameplay to the OP classes.

 

In your screenshot I see that you're using a pathfinder, just so you know, a pathfinder can infinite lock down the flag holder. But if you're trying to DPS instead of support cc/lock and then the enemy flag holder, well that's all on you.

 

Yes, Sentinels can lock someone to death easily. Can it lock a crowd to death such as Magicians / Summoners ?

 

Finally, instead of always looking at stuff to nerf nerf nerf, maybe other classes could use some buffs so they're more fun to play.

 

With the current situation the Staff can't create active spells. So the best way to balance the classes for now is to nerf the OP classes.

 

The classes all have different learning curves by the way. "That time when Pallies and Ninjas dominated BSQ". Also it feels a hell lot more rewarding to have the odds stacked against you and win but maybe you want those easy wins.

 

I don't want any easy win as I don't want others to have easy wins.

 

 


Edited by Onyzer, 22 August 2017 - 12:45 PM.

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#23 zekiel6

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 02:47 PM

the second ss shows even better the impact on magical classes dominating the battlesqure. they have all three one thing in common. they die hard and they deal the highest damage in pvp.


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#24 testg

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 04:00 PM

honestly for heal classes the hp% deathbuff should be remove because it affects the slow heal. and other class need their benefits back.
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#25 Vossel

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 05:21 PM

In my opinion it is needed to split the game into PvP and PvE, so that skills work differently in PvP than they do in PvE.

As example skill x has in PvE 12 seconds cooldown but in PvP 45 seconds, or the duration for PvP is shorter or % amounts of skills in either dmg / debuff / buff / heal are reduced.

But to get back on the Topic, i think no heal should be spamable in PvP. Especially now that everyone has the same movementspeed. Someone skilled enough to dodge really good just needs to cast a slow heal lvl 10 and run for 30 seconds and if he has 400 MS no one can really catch him and he gets massiv amount of HP back and he just does this everytime he loses some HP. Why not make Heal work for your team as well but increase the cooldowns of them a lot for PvP, this way Magicians can be usefull for the other teammembers as well besides of freezing debuffing and they can work together like that invoker heals first and later on another one heals so if they work as team they can work good with the heals but if you split a Magician from its team that has already used its heal, it cant heal itself for like 3 Minutes or so.

This split between PvP and PvE cant be done easily in terms of coding or balancing but in my Opinion this is the only thing that could solve this unbalance we have.


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