57 replies to this topic

[Coolsam]

the second ss shows even better the impact on magical classes dominating the battlesqure. they have all three one thing in common. they die hard and they deal the highest damage in pvp.

The second ss doesn't deter from the argument that sorcerers and invoker's just get too much benefit from death hp boosts. Bet any amount of gold that the top mages on the winning side of that screenshot probably died 3-4 times so their Max hp was at least doubled. I ain't talking on purpose, I mean that they got caught out and died a few times trying legit, then managed to live longer because their health was magically boosted by a large degree.

After all, the healing skills in question are based on % Max hp values.

Edited by Coolsam, 22 August 2017 - 07:32 PM.

[Popcorn]

In my opinion it is needed to split the game into PvP and PvE, so that skills work differently in PvP than they do in PvE.

As example skill x has in PvE 12 seconds cooldown but in PvP 45 seconds, or the duration for PvP is shorter or % amounts of skills in either dmg / debuff / buff / heal are reduced.

 

Patch notes 8/9:

 

 

Magician

Slow Heal and Self Heal now heal only 50% of their PvE healing amount in PvP

 

Monk
Wide Heal now heals only 50% of its PvE healing amount in PvP

 

Specialist
Sniping: Cooldown increased by 2 seconds in PvP, Damage reduced by 30% in PvP

 

Archer
Shootdown: Cooldown increased by 1 second in PvP, Damage reduced by 20% in PvP

 

[Vossel]

What i meant was to split the entire game between PvP and PvE and not just the one or other skill.

[ohsnap]

Healing isn't the issue. It's the ratio between diversity and effectiveness in group pvp that needs to be address. The reason mages are so effective is because they excel in group pvps and aoe lockdowns but they are vulnerable in 1v1 match ups where aircombos, kiting or air skills like shootdown screw them over. Sure they're excellent in group pvp modes where they might not be focused or they could be babysit by teammates but in 1v1s they have many weaknesses that can be exploited by other classes since most of their skills require good hit confirmation and the fact they need to be on the ground to land. The healing nerf is pretty noticeable already but it's pretty hard to notice in chaotic fights.

In all honesty, nerfing and removing skills is killing the game and class identity. Shouldn't a healer's job be to heal? Shouldn't a tank do the tanking? Shouldn't classes that are suppose to do damage deal damage? Every class just seems like a huge dps meat shield if you're stacked. There's no stat diversity because the only effective stat is health and every other option is mediocre at best and removing skills/passives takes away the class's identity. We should gear towards buffing classes rather than nerfing them if you want to see improvements.

Edited by ohsnap, 23 August 2017 - 07:20 AM.

[zekiel6]

Healing isn't the issue.

 

healing is an issue. it is already hard to catch a healing mage and in the most times, if catched, they escape very easy thanks to the other people from their team (battlemage, monk, summoner) who have all wide aoe skills or in case of summoner a buggy golgon that stuns in a huge area. after escaping they just start running again and heal their HPbar up again. now that the heals are nerfed they just run more. problem with these three classes is that they die too slow and kill too fast compared with other classes.

[Coolsam]

Values of Wide Heal and Slow Heal are manageable and out-damaged by a number of classes already.

But when players in BattleSquare begin dying excessively and maintaining huge boosts to Max hp, which in turn ups the healing received by these mages, then healings values are a problem.

Compare 10/10 Slow heal and 5/5 Wide Heals values on a priest at 0 deaths to a priest at each consecutive death hp buff. Even though the percentage values don't change, the actual numbers increase and overall required damage and time to kill also increases.

Base HP @ deathless mages are manageable with elements system and could even be soloed by some classes.

TL;DR Trial period removal of Death HP buffs will give you the tone down to mages you're looking for.

[Onyzer]

Healing isn't the issue. It's the ratio between diversity and effectiveness in group pvp that needs to be address. The reason mages are so effective is because they excel in group pvps and aoe lockdowns but they are vulnerable in 1v1 match ups where aircombos, kiting or air skills like shootdown screw them over. Sure they're excellent in group pvp modes where they might not be focused or they could be babysit by teammates but in 1v1s they have many weaknesses that can be exploited by other classes since most of their skills require good hit confirmation and the fact they need to be on the ground to land. The healing nerf is pretty noticeable already but it's pretty hard to notice in chaotic fights.

In all honesty, nerfing and removing skills is killing the game and class identity. Shouldn't a healer's job be to heal? Shouldn't a tank do the tanking? Shouldn't classes that are suppose to do damage deal damage? Every class just seems like a huge dps meat shield if you're stacked. There's no stat diversity because the only effective stat is health and every other option is mediocre at best and removing skills/passives takes away the class's identity. We should gear towards buffing classes rather than nerfing them if you want to see improvements.

 

Healing is currently an issue because of the way it is. It is only self healings, and they are still too strong. As I said, healing should be a way to last a little bit longer, not a way to last forever.

 

I agree on the different roles for the classes part. But as you can see in one of my previous answers on this topic, Magicians can do everything you stated. I do want every class to have its own role too, and Invokers are supposed to be supports, not damage dealers nor tanks.

[9851170220163549840]

 

 

Also, just realized Slow Heal has only 5sec cooldown for a 30sec duration. Which means they can be under this skill 100% of the time. Give it some real cooldown please like 1min.

 

This is the real solution~ +1 +1 +1 +1
 

[Precrush]

Slow heal is not a problem anymore, it heals 3.75% per tick on lvl 10... 

[5143121023173906760]

I don't think that nerf on healing is that bad, but people will still run away while having the flags. They can still drink HP potions and also a sumonner and an invoker already have a pretty strong healing source that hasn't been touched.

[Onyzer]

A regeneration of 3.75% of Max HP every 3 seconds 100% of the time is a problem. That's more than 1% per second, let's say you damage a Magician down to 50% of his Max HP. Then he kills you, the death time + the time you buff + the time you reach him again, let's say 20sec (depends on the amount of buff). That's already approximately 25% recovered. If the Magician has the flags he will run, for an amount of time who can't be defined, but he still has to stay alive ONLY 20 more seconds when you reach him to get 100% HP. Not mentionning the fact that they are really good tanks and runners as well. Also, this example is for Magicians in general, now I'll let you imagine the situation with an Invoker's Wide Heal. Btw, the casting time of this one is still way too short, it's alsmot an instant cast with Casting Acceleration.

[Precrush]

He won't run for 20 seconds, he'll run for 4 and wide heal. 20 seconds is a long time in this game if you are being targeted.

[Onyzer]

He won't run for 20 seconds, he'll run for 4 and wide heal. 20 seconds is a long time in this game if you are being targeted.

 

So that's even worse.

 

I see Magicians running for 20 minutes, chasing someone without letting him one free second so he can heal himself is really hard in a crowded mode like BSQ. Mostly when people know how to use the snake-dash bug.

[Coolsam]

Escaping and then running? Let me explain the number of debuffs and skills thrown on you when caught out by a proper BattleSquare team: (Priest, Summoner, Sorc, Sentinel)

1. Magnet
2. Quagmire
3. Barbarian
4. Heaven's Wrath stuns
5. Spark Rock electric flinch
6. Chain Lighting electric flinch
7. Z-stuns from Summoner
8. Golgon stuns
9. Rolling Stone Stuns
10. Fire Symbol electric flinch
11. Blizzard
12. Snow Blues
13. Telsa
14. Silence
15. Freeze trap
16. Archer Z-stuns

That's 16, 16 movement halting debuffs and flinches all whilst under repeated and rapid x-spam and other dps skills. Give or take depending on attendance. We can throw in more; (Let's add a Ninja and Twin)

1. Rocket Punch stun+slow
2. Wood Rush
3. Other Ninja stuns/flinches
4. Ring from Hell slow
5. Training Time (It's essentially a 2nd Barbarian)
6. Ghost Fighter Stuns
7. Twin Infinite kicking flinches and flinches from their other skills

About 23, give or take, stuns, flinches and debuffs combined. Whilst under heavy dps. Unless you're wearing GM armor and have maxed quad-element resist with over 300k hp, you're not gonna survive more than 20 seconds even with Slow Heal and HP Battery on you as a priest. Unless you have something witnessed in Battlesquare where players ignore all stuns and freezes and move normally.

 

And about Wide heal? You'd need a damn brilliant team to allow it's long cast time, even with casting acceleration, to pull it off immediately after escaping.

 

Healing currently is very manageable in BattleSquare considering what the popular classes are. Coordination can catch-out, shred and destroy anyone that isn't doing suspicious acts. It's when said mages been caught out multiple times without successful kills that becomes a problem. Even with all that, at a good 3-4 deaths an Invoker/Sorceror can be stalled until rescue due to their max hp being super-charged.

 

The target, once again I can't believe I'm bringing this up, is not healing now, it's Death Buffs.

[Precrush]

That. Not only is it quite easy to keep people locked down, it doesn't actually take too long to die with max gear against a few people of the opposing element build. So that's also a factor, if you have 3-4 people with ice/fire elements attacking a person with resist for those, it's quite likely you won't be able to kill them before they escape either by a mistake in crowd control or by people coming to help.

 

I do think wide heal is perhaps a bit too strong still mainly because of it's low cooldown. 

[zekiel6]

you people think wrong. magicans run for more than 5 minutes in BSQ with flags without to die and probably even longer. Most of them get caught a few times but killing a mage with heals on takes time. It is not like 7 people fighting 1 mage and locking him down. They die slowly and the other teams classes with AoE skills will easy interrupt the lock. Two sorcerer are enough to keep the area infront and behind the flagholder clear so sooner or later there will be an opening where the mage with flags can escape. Then the running and chasing will begin again. Mages get caught a few times but often enough a whole team cant kill the mage because it tanks too much and the team of the flagholder will interrupt the lock. Mages can blink out fast in less than a second if they arent stunned or frozen anymore and if the mage is a monk he can even cure all the debuffs at once.

[Precrush]

Well good thing it makes 0 difference whether you win or lose, just let them run if they want to.

 

Running is not a problem specific to mages, and mages shouldn't be nerfed based on a fundamental design flaw in one of our pvp modes.

[Onyzer]

Escaping and then running? Let me explain the number of debuffs and skills thrown on you when caught out by a proper BattleSquare team: (Priest, Summoner, Sorc, Sentinel)

1. Magnet
2. Quagmire
3. Barbarian
4. Heaven's Wrath stuns
5. Spark Rock electric flinch
6. Chain Lighting electric flinch
7. Z-stuns from Summoner
8. Golgon stuns
9. Rolling Stone Stuns
10. Fire Symbol electric flinch
11. Blizzard
12. Snow Blues
13. Telsa
14. Silence
15. Freeze trap
16. Archer Z-stuns

That's 16, 16 movement halting debuffs and flinches all whilst under repeated and rapid x-spam and other dps skills. Give or take depending on attendance. We can throw in more; (Let's add a Ninja and Twin)

1. Rocket Punch stun+slow
2. Wood Rush
3. Other Ninja stuns/flinches
4. Ring from Hell slow
5. Training Time (It's essentially a 2nd Barbarian)
6. Ghost Fighter Stuns
7. Twin Infinite kicking flinches and flinches from their other skills

About 23, give or take, stuns, flinches and debuffs combined. Whilst under heavy dps. Unless you're wearing GM armor and have maxed quad-element resist with over 300k hp, you're not gonna survive more than 20 seconds even with Slow Heal and HP Battery on you as a priest. Unless you have something witnessed in Battlesquare where players ignore all stuns and freezes and move normally.

 

And about Wide heal? You'd need a damn brilliant team to allow it's long cast time, even with casting acceleration, to pull it off immediately after escaping.

 

Healing currently is very manageable in BattleSquare considering what the popular classes are. Coordination can catch-out, shred and destroy anyone that isn't doing suspicious acts. It's when said mages been caught out multiple times without successful kills that becomes a problem. Even with all that, at a good 3-4 deaths an Invoker/Sorceror can be stalled until rescue due to their max hp being super-charged.

 

The target, once again I can't believe I'm bringing this up, is not healing now, it's Death Buffs.

 

Thank you for this list, I was lazy to do it. Now just know an Invoker can escape it just with one spell : Blink. And cure these debuffs instantly. Also, as zekiel6 said, you can't just lock the flags holder easily, there will of course be his team coming to help him. Then he escapes and heal and run until you catch him again and get interrupted easily again, and again and again. Also, Sorcerers can instantly cast Blizzard.

 

As for Wide Heal, I can tell you that the casting time is almost instant with Casting Acceleration.

 

Also, in a non-crowded BSQ (3v3 let's say), if your team is not Magicians / Summoners (let's add Sentinels cause you mentionned them) a Magicians can easily run for 20 minutes with healing.

 

So it comes back to what I said, the best way to counter Magicians / Summoners is to play them. Just please give every class its own role.

 

Though I agree with you, Death Buffs don't need to be there imo.

[Coolsam]

Thank you for this list, I was lazy to do it. Now just know an Invoker can escape it just with one spell : Blink. And cure these debuffs instantly. Also, as zekiel6 said, you can't just lock the flags holder easily, there will of course be his team coming to help him. Then he escapes and heal and run until you catch him again and get interrupted easily again, and again and again. Also, Sorcerers can instantly cast Blizzard.

 

As for Wide Heal, I can tell you that the casting time is almost instant with Casting Acceleration.

 

Also, in a non-crowded BSQ (3v3 let's say), if your team is not Magicians / Summoners (let's add Sentinels cause you mentionned them) a Magicians can easily run for 20 minutes with healing.

 

So it comes back to what I said, the best way to counter Magicians / Summoners is to play them. Just please give every class its own role.

 

Though I agree with you, Death Buffs don't need to be there imo.

 

Okay so you seem to be forgetting, Freezes, Stuns and Silence you can't cast Blink under. Unless you're encountering some mages that can, in which case record the video and submit to WarpPortal support. (See my tiny text in my last post). Also many of these debuffs are used in conjunction and are meant to hold multiple people. Meaning multiple enemy team players will get pulled and have these applied to.

 

Also of course it's easier to run/escape in 3vs3. My scenarios are in 85 which is often 10vs10 or even full 15vs15, loaded with mages and summoners as previous screenshots list.. Also even with mages/summoners a skilled mage can outmaneuver them with knowledge of skill ranges. Even pre-magnet nerf. A skilled player can even lock a Summoner with Golgon by predicting the rolling ability Golgon uses and using proper distance in a hit & run fashion. That's an entirely RnG skill the Golgon will use.

 

Though I'm glad others are seeing Death Buffs HP-boost's effect has on %-HP based healing skills. We'll always deal the same DPS but the HP will go higher and higher.

[Agitodesu]

Once I think about it, battle square rewards aren't even good compared to the repair fees and the amount of complaint players have along with the amount of stacking you have to do in order to be decent, if I walk into battle square with +4 gear I don't see myself killing and carrying flags in order to get a decent amount of points to get some gold for that 50 gold repair fee. It's all about complaints on skills making it unfair, stacked vs unstacked making it unfair, trash classes that can't compete properly making it unfair. Nothing is ever right and I can see how popcorn is busting a blood vessel trying to work around this stuff considering he is a PvE player, 1 mistake and the community is outraged.

[zekiel6]

Okay so you seem to be forgetting, Freezes, Stuns and Silence you can't cast Blink under. 

you think in the best case scenario. flagholder is unable to move and cant cast skills and 10 people are attacking the flagholder at the same time. in the most cases there are only one or two people near the guy who got the flags when he get catched. and then slowly people from both teams come too. trying to kill and trying to defend the flag person. and in the second the flag person is able to cast again he will blink out and heal. if he cant cast because of mute trap he will just walk out and run. in many cases  it looks like that: flag person in the middle and defending team and attacking team stacks at right or left site of flag person. then the defending site splits up circling the attacking site and placing long lasting skills like rolling stone, blizzard, penguin, magnet at the attacking people. while the attacking team needs to reduce the flagholders health to zero in order to get the flags the defending team just needs to buy the flagholder 1 second of time. guess what is more easy.

[IncestBorn]

you think in the best case scenario. flagholder is unable to move and cant cast skills and 10 people are attacking the flagholder at the same time. in the most cases there are only one or two people near the guy who got the flags when he get catched. and then slowly people from both teams come too. trying to kill and trying to defend the flag person. and in the second the flag person is able to cast again he will blink out and heal. if he cant cast because of mute trap he will just walk out and run. in many cases  it looks like that: flag person in the middle and defending team and attacking team stacks at right or left site of flag person. then the defending site splits up circling the attacking site and placing long lasting skills like rolling stone, blizzard, penguin, magnet at the attacking people. while the attacking team needs to reduce the flagholders health to zero in order to get the flags the defending team just needs to buy the flagholder 1 second of time. guess what is more easy.

No need to argue, people that insist that priest need heal are the ones who don't know how to use a priest. 

 

Priest has 4 heals for bsq-pvp and they need none, if anything just regular potions like everyone else. But the ones saying otherwise are the same people getting spam to death in bsq anyways, cause they don't know how to use a priest properly.

 

0 heals for priest and 0 for warlock and they steal have a tremendous advantage in bsq-pvp. I wont beat a horse to death, cause is not only the players fault and if I tell the truth of were the fault relies, I will get banned. Forum can't handle the truth and been thin skin is in high mode.

[Precrush]

No need to argue, people that insist that priest need heal are the ones who don't know how to use a priest.

Priest has 4 heals for bsq-pvp and they need none, if anything just regular potions like everyone else. But the ones saying otherwise are the same people getting spam to death in bsq anyways, cause they don't know how to use a priest properly.

0 heals for priest and 0 for warlock and they steal have a tremendous advantage in bsq-pvp. I wont beat a horse to death, cause is not only the players fault and if I tell the truth of were the fault relies, I will get banned. Forum can't handle the truth and been thin skin is in high mode.

Sigh... Two can play this game:

All skills can be balanced for pvp so none of them should be outright removed from there because that reduces the diversity of the classes move pool and as such makes them less interesting. This is a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise does not actually think at all.

Now there was a proper argument there and a baseless one, maybe you can spot the difference.

[IncestBorn]

Sigh... Two can play this game:

All skills can be balanced for pvp so none of them should be outright removed from there because that reduces the diversity of the classes move pool and as such makes them less interesting. This is a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise does not actually think at all.

Now there was a proper argument there and a baseless one, maybe you can spot the difference.

I spot the different when I see you play your priest, dead on arrival. And no you don't need skills that are counter productive and will always give an edge, to those of us who actually know how to use them. Peace out. Take healing off and even than, the priest will continue to be over powered.

[Coolsam]

No need to argue, people that insist that priest need heal are the ones who don't know how to use a priest. 

 

Priest has 4 heals for bsq-pvp and they need none, if anything just regular potions like everyone else. But the ones saying otherwise are the same people getting spam to death in bsq anyways, cause they don't know how to use a priest properly.

 

0 heals for priest and 0 for warlock and they steal have a tremendous advantage in bsq-pvp. I wont beat a horse to death, cause is not only the players fault and if I tell the truth of were the fault relies, I will get banned. Forum can't handle the truth and been thin skin is in high mode.

 

That's sound logic. Tell me, of every mage in every battlesquare or every Emporia, aside from maybe a case where the opposing side was either 0-mages/summoners, ungeared players, got alt-logged on their team for an uneven game or just went afk, one who uses 0 heals and comes out and escapes everything deathless. That's not a case for defending the removal of heals that's like some imaginary challenge given for a video by one of the few Dragon Saga Youtubers (And I know one would've tried it by now). Even the "top guilds" in the server has mages who are over-reliant on heals probably.

 

The numbers are already toned down to manageable levels. Even "Master Priests" like you're insisting the people in this discussion are not, would prefer heals stay. Also even people who can use a priest 100% to fullest, perfect blinks, lands a good 80%+ of their barbs even on jumping targets, maximized atk-spd both in PC and stat number, perfect alternations of chain combos and regular x-spam, will get spammed to death in BSQ even when they use a priest properly.

 

Sigh... Two can play this game:

All skills can be balanced for pvp so none of them should be outright removed from there because that reduces the diversity of the classes move pool and as such makes them less interesting. This is a fact and anyone who thinks otherwise does not actually think at all.

Now there was a proper argument there and a baseless one, maybe you can spot the difference.

 

I agree, the actions of WarpPortal developers being able to make alternate variations of skills for PvP is actually a big achievement. Nothing's set in stone (Aside from caps on specific stats for reasons I accept).