10 replies to this topic

[Shraiderz]

In this topic I intend to discuss one of the aspects of elemental system which bother me and doesn't make sense to me as a PvP player.

 

It is clear that elements can be useful in PvM since you can know the element of the monsters you are hunting so you can use the appropriate element to be stronger against that particular monster. In PvP however, you can't see the element of your opponent, considering that players can use 2 different elements simultaneously 1 for weapon and 1 for armor whereas monsters only have 1 element.

 

At first I thought this can be solved by adding the element symbol to players names in PvP zones just like it is in monsters. But this will give great advantage to the classes that can go invisible over other classes. So i'd like to suggest a possible solution in this topic and listen to other members who got other ideas and who are concerned about this issue.

 

My suggestion is making elemental system exclusive for PvM only because it can be helpful, and remove any effect of elements in PvP to take out the confusion it causes.

[pandasoup23]

ye...no, pvp is about having your OWN build (element, stat, skill, gear). You arent suppose to know what the enemy is using.

 

you're basically saying "let me know exactly what you are using so i can counter you, kthx". If you're good, you're good, no need to think about other players. 

[Feuer]

Gotta agree with panda.

 

The Elemental system is functioning -now- exactly as intended. It's a Rock, Paper Scissors system. You make your move, and let the cards fall where they fall. It makes it so even if 2 players who use extremely similar stats, equipments, runes, refine levels, etc, can still gain a statistical advantage [not accounting for player experience in the game]. 

 

Here's a list of possible outcomes:
Key: 
x = disadvantage
n = neither advantage nor disadvantage
a = advantage

Worst possible scenario:
Offensive: x
Defensive: x
You're attacking with an Element they can resist effectively, and you're defending against an element that you take increased damage from.

Offensive: x
Defensive: n

 

Offensive: n
Defensive: n

 

Offensive: n
Defensive: a

 

The best possible scenario
Offensive: a

Defensive: a

You're attacking with an element your target can't defend against and causing increased damage; as well as defending against their offense with an element that causes you to take reduced damage.

 

The key to this functioning well, is* that you don't know what your enemy is using. 

Also, we've been down this road before with item swapping in combat. If you want to change items, you need to retreat / hide / kite long enough to be placed 'out of combat' and quickly change, which is a risk, given if you waste 10 seconds trying and failing to change items, your team will pay the price for your miss-judgment. So the penalty isn't you're using the wrong items, it's you didn't properly estimate the risk vs rewards. 

Same can be said for elements. Even if you knew what the enemy was using, you'd still need to place yourself out of combat to adjust, making that same risk. But experienced players will know when they're being mitigated or not, you become attuned with what your char is capable of, and can mentally measure your foe within only a few seconds. You're asking for an easy button, but one that comes at the cost of inexperienced players making rash decisions to achieve a min-max status, that can and will most likely end up in your being a detriment to your team mates. 

That's why I say no. It's fine the way it is. You will become used to it once you've gained enough experience. 

Edited by Feuer, 30 August 2017 - 04:01 PM.

[thetrangdamvn]

I can't agree more with these 2 guys.

 

[meocutduoi]

I can't agree more with these 3 guys

[Buffiies]

I can't agree more with these 4 guys.

[Cortiz]

I can't agree more with these 5 guys.

[unyoyo]

Guys i think the real problem on elemental system is that is NOT an strategy or a tactic or a human skill factor is just a BUILD wich is not atractive that much, the worst part is that the pvp with them is like a rulete where u need to change target when u realise u hit less to them or run away when u realice that he/she hit you more, yes guys.

 

A random run away and a random switch target.

 

The good part is that you can have advantaje to the skill set/stats build that u normally dont and you can 3 hit poeple sometimes i think.

 

I see this like a rulete cose u can never know what element will have your oponent, is posible to defeat some one with skill, timing or strategy, but this elemental system make it imposible.

 

If you study your oponent u can defeat them or at least balance them at 50/50 win ratio, but u cant do nothing when you limit your skill to a... nothing just a image and a number.

[Feuer]

Actually, there is an element of 'skill' when selecting your enchantments you use. 

 

Let's take Katar Raiders for example. 

All of their Burns are imbued with 'fire' on the skill cast, and they cannot change that no matter what. Let's say, you're up against an opponent, who knows how frequently they'll run into raiders, or it's in a GA match and they've already had one engagement with your group. They switch to something that is resistant to fire damage, making them take less.

 

There's 3 Elements that reduce Fire damage taken. Water, Holy and Poison.

You can make the following choices.

1. Enchant your Weapon with something that is effective against 1 or 2 of those elements. Making your auto attacks, triple, screw attack and crazy style slashes, much more effective. Countering their armor enchant, and punishing them for trying to counter the burns.
2. Enchant your weapon with Fire, and just go all out. If you get countered, try a different target. In group combat there's usually more than 1 person available to hit.
3. Enchant your weapon with something that is powerful against something that's neutral to Fire [doesn't reduce or increase damage they take from your fire skills], thus playing your card against theirs again.

It's not always a guessing game. You can use elements to give yourself an edge. If the vast majority of your skills are 1 or 2 elements, I'd recommend you enchant your weapon for a third. This causes you to have an almost 'chaotic' damage spread. Simpyl pay attention when attacking a foe, at what is doing more, and adjust on the fly, without gear swapping. 

 

Is there still an element of RNG, of course. But just like Dodge and Crit are semi-RNG [because you can't ever really know how well you're going to perform with those two stats] so are elements. It's not a new concept, it's just another topical layer, to shake things up, and make the outcome less predictable. 

[unyoyo]

On a MMORPG you must play agaist diferent enemy like the 98% of times, u cant know what he will use agaist you directly, u must use strategy to know it.

[Feuer]

Actually, you can know what they'll be using most of the time, in certain cases.

 

Burn Raids: Will always be doing majority burn damage. Fire. 

SF Champs: Will always have Wind, Sorcery and Earth damage. 

etc, etc. 

 

If you know the classes, you know their skills. And if you know what their skills have, you can adjust before even the first blow is landed. And then adjust even further, for future engagements. Trust me, there's a lot more mental skill in this than you seem to think there is.