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why axe champ so potato?


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#1 Dickyprtma

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 07:04 PM

I would just like to address about Champion — Axe build. I really wanna try this and stay on this build, but even though my build is good, runes etc, and I have good CRIT rate, my damage to players are potato especially to raiders that has higher dodge rate now, my ACCURACY is potato even I put more stat into it, and my enemies make me also a potato. If you observe in game, no one plays axe so much, I think this is why! My friends make me shift to 2hand sword or spear, because they say axe really suck. I've switched back and forth to axe build, but I really want this. I hope this gets balanced. Ty.


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#2 Feuer

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 07:52 PM

Axe does suck, and you have one of two options with it.

 

Stay with a 'proper' axe build, going purely for High HP, DEF, Crit and AP. Just a standard tank and spank champ really.

or

Invest into absolutely every piece of accuracy you can. All Accuracy Runes, including face, Accuracy full or mixed PvP set, Accuracy sub-stats where available, about 150-200 CON, etc etc.

 

However, take note that no matter what you do, you will lose to Mages. This is a compound problem with the fact there is no Magic Defense Runes [while there are several Physical Defense runes], the fact you cannot absorb off mana barriers, the fact you'll miss if they're a wind type [most are as it's fast DPS, high stun procs, and mutes in pvp, which procs movespeed and dodge]. 

 

Also note, if you go with a standard build, [not investing 100% into accuracy] you'll be gimping yourself against 80% of the pvp classes played [Scouts and Raiders and Mages]. So expect to lose in pvp about 70-90% of the time, unless you manage a string of 5-6 lucky crits on all your heavy hitting skills [which all are around 20ish+ seconds cooldown].

 

Problems you'll notice.

1: Your Self Healing skill is a 28 second cooldown. This used to be much lower, around 8, but due to about 5-6 nerfs over the last 2-3 years, it's now gone to half a minute. This means, you'll only get 1 chance to use it in a skirmish or engagement.

2: You cannot absorb health if you miss as there is no static HP amount [Bloody Assault (Raider) and Absorptive Strike (Knight) both have static amounts so they can still gain a moderate amount of HP on a miss]. So, you only get 1 chance to heal, and if you miss, you get nothing.

3: You cannot Absorb off mana shield, or barriers. 

4: You cannot absorb off Blocked attacks, again, no static healing.

5: You will not gain any HP from absorption, if you kill the target with the skill. 

6: Your Axe Fury Passive is based on auto-attacks that hit, and only at a 40% rate chance when maxed. This means since you'll be missing about 40-50% of your attacks, with a 40% chance rate of gaining axe fury, you'll have roughly 22% chance per attack. As your atks / second is going to be on average around 0.75 / s [depends on gear really] it'll take you an average of 6 seconds across the board for 1 stack, and 30 seconds for all 5. That's also ONLY using auto-attack swings, using skills reduces this gain rate slightly. [Hint, odds are, you'll be dead after about 25 seconds]
7: No Crit Defense: After the change to critical rating and critical defense, Axes were never given their Crit Tanking capability back. This means their primary survival stat was 100% removed, and is not coming back. 
8: CHA is useless: Seeing as you only have 3 skills total that benefit from CHA, and only 2 are 'worth' the investment, [hint, Dodge down is not one of those], this means building crit tank via stats, is not an option, you must get it through runes. All Crit Defense runes are from PvP, aside from the face rune, which means in order to get this, you're going to die.....  a lot. And you will feel stupid for playing the class.

9: No Critical Defense down: Before the crit + crit defense change, axes 'Crit Down' caused their enemy's to take critical hits more often. Since the change, their 'Crit Down' only reduces the chances the Champ themselves will take a crit, and it's a very short window. This drastically reduced their burst potential, meaning even if you live for 20-30 seconds while auto-attacking to get your axe fury stacks to prep your burst, your crit down will not help you, and there's a pretty good chance none of your 4 primary burst skills will crit, depending on your crit build and enemy's crit defense.

10: Cooldowns and Accuracy: As your cooldown as 2x longer than the average mages, but you have to be in melee range as well as have a massive accuracy deficiency, odds are your burst potential will just miss. Seeing as you really only get 1 chance to burst someone in 1v1's and the majority of group skirmishes [unless you have a very nice cleric who will heal you every 7 seconds'ish] odds are, you'll just be a damage soaking meat shield, hoping you don't get primaried. 

 

I could list more problems, but seeing as there is no indication that class balance will be occurring before the end of the year, or really in the future at all, it's just me blasting hot air into the void, as our primary DEV [no offense] doesn't exactly read or pay attention to these threads either. 


TL;DR
Go spear, you'll save yourself about 2 years minimum of headache. 


Edited by Feuer, 21 September 2017 - 07:56 PM.

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#3 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 04:25 AM

Axes are actually INSANELY good if you spend the time to build it accordingly

 

I've seen Ajax\Carl literally 1vs1 every type of class in game besides a mage\knight and literally just rofl stomped everything, including raiders while he was axe champion.

However, group fighting they're very lack luster, as they have no damaging AOEs and they're very slow.

 

Charm is never useless on any class in the game, you should know that Feu feu, charm is the be-all-everything stat, including crit defense which you're going to want on a Champion.


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#4 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 04:42 AM

Go make one before you comment on it, K thanks bye. 


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#5 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 04:49 AM

Why do I need to go do that if I've seen other players playing Axe Champ in PvP just fine, actually doing insane damage? and if I pvp them I can see just clearly how strong and viable they can be?
Lol, admit you're wrong for once, because you are. Axe champs are still viable if they're built right
I could kill carl while he was playing spear or sword, but I could never touch him when he played axe champion, I'd get obliterated, and watching the other classes fight him while being in his group, obviously showed me that axe champions are still viable and can literally obliterate other classes in 1vs1 PvP


I used to main champion before they nerfed them into the ground by the way, so no thanks, I'll stick my nerfed in the ground scout since buff sets were removed. (Don't even think you played during the time to remember that scouts were the ONLY class in game to get nerfed when buff sets were taken out of ROSE Online, other classes got reworked, etc. Scouts got too many things taken away)
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#6 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 04:51 AM

Wrong, on everything you said.

Your opinion is outdated, go play one. 


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#7 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 04:58 AM

.... if my Opinion is outdated
Why do you see Axe Champions still being played? LOL
Why do you NOT see anybody playing Artisan, Bourgeious, etc besides those who have severe game knowledge of how to properly build a stats\skills\equipment to accomodate a snowballing effect.

and I am not wrong, Scouts were the only class to be majorly nerfed since buff sets were removed...
Actually, you were good friends with Leonis, and I'd suggest you go through his profile and previous posts, and find the post of where the passives and traps for scouts were a "bandaid" until a proper build was set to implement into the server, simply because Scouts had become one of the largest jokes after buff sets were removed and skills changed for some classes?
or you can ask James, Matt, many older players during that time of what exactly happened to Scouts
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#8 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 05:12 AM

.... if my Opinion is outdated
Why do you see Axe Champions still being played? LOL
 

 

.... You're joking right? Literally, you have got to be kidding me. 


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#9 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 05:16 AM

No, sorry to break your sorrowed ol little heart, but no, I am not kidding.
Axe champs can still be viable if you know what you're doing to build them correctly, tried & true. Go have fun testing and learning for yourself, because I've already gone through the scenario of what you're begging me to do.
I think it's your turn on the merry-go-round.
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#10 watermelonnn

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 05:16 AM

Axes are actually INSANELY good if you spend the time to build it accordingly

 

I've seen Ajax\Carl literally 1vs1 every type of class in game besides a mage\knight and literally just rofl stomped everything, including raiders while he was axe champion.

However, group fighting they're very lack luster, as they have no damaging AOEs and they're very slow.

 

Charm is never useless on any class in the game, you should know that Feu feu, charm is the be-all-everything stat, including crit defense which you're going to want on a Champion.

 

how recent was this? swear ajax has been spear for ages...theres literally only like 2 to maybe 4 axe players (active? who knows)

 

 

as for bourgs and artis, theres still many cannon bourgs (op af *-*). As for artis, its a class where you have to know what you're doing, its not a easy pick and play like raider 


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#11 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 05:26 AM

There's I want to say, 3 Axe Champs in all of ROSE active atm. Myself, The OP, and WisdomTeeeth's that he recently leveled with mine [though it's not a main interest of his].
 
And no, your 'experience' as a champ of any stripe, let alone a PvP Axe champ [or even hybrid] is so severely outdated. It's disgusting really. Incoming btw.
Here's a comparison I recorded today, just for you.
 
Hope you can bring more than itemized points on gear, considering I can hold my own against any class that isn't OP [Like Bow Scouts and Raiders]. 

 



Clear cut evidence, Bow Scouts are not nerfed, but they definitely need one.

Edit: Also, I just want to point out your CLEAR bias. Until I decided to play this class, you had never mentioned a problem about it.
You also never had a problem with Artisans, until I and mainly Charles started playing them. [And I played mine for 2 years mind you].
In fact, your personal vendetta, and constant flapping of your noise hole about things you haven't played for 4 years [if not longer since you're constantly using your experience from the 'buffset' days] plasters a massive billboard sign on your forehead that reads 'Ignore me, I'm just being a salty troll, look at my dank memes yo, validate my reason to live plox'

Just get out of threads you don't belong in, or, go level, gear, and build an axe if it's 'so easy' and 'so feasible' and come back when you got some hours under your belt son. 


Edited by Feuer, 22 September 2017 - 05:37 AM.

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#12 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:02 AM

Your axe champion is barely geared, no runes, and you're quite terrible at PVP in ROSE Online..

I refuse to use your video for refence on how viable axe champions are, because the video is coming from "Feuer"
The player that has adjacent the most manipulated skill updates \ changes to ROSE Online, for his and other friend(s) advantages, to be reaped and abused.
You completely ignored my rethort about leonis putting the skill passives and traps that scouts have now as a bandaid, etc..
You're on a vendetta of an agenda for whatever you're reaping to sow, and sorry sir, you can have what you want, I'm sure as hell not going to fight for anything anymore in ROSE online, it's a joke of a game and the community is just as bad.


You got bodied by a scout thats played the game since 2006, and mained a scout class since my main champion was scammed.
Fully runed, +20 scout, vs a non runed, garbage geared champion, of course you're going to get ROFL stomped..

GEAR MATTERS, SKILL MATTERS.


Stop with the fake BS videos of trying to skewer an opinion to your referenced side. Even when you were close enough to hit me, you were doing 5-6K damage to a FULLY runed scout, get real.
DO YOU SEE THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE THAT I AM DOING TO YOU? LOL My impact is the only thing hitting 5K+, and maybe my phoenix will be close to 5K
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#13 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:29 AM

Your axe champion is barely geared, no runes, and you're quite terrible at PVP in ROSE Online..

I refuse to use your video for refence on how viable axe champions are, because the video is coming from "Feuer"

The very definition of bias. 

DO YOU SEE THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE THAT I AM DOING TO YOU? LOL My impact is the only thing hitting 5K+, and maybe my phoenix will be close to 5K

You might want to watch that video again. 


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#14 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:34 AM

-snip-

I did watch the video..
The only time I start doing insane damage is when I get enough critical damage stacks, maybe you should look into Ice Arrow?
From the start burst damages, most of the time I am doing 4K criticals without stacks, when I have crit damage stacks -snip- for 10K impacts all day long because of how high your HP is, and the amount of Pierce defense I've acquired for Champions, just like you.
Maybe you should start from a stand point of the best offensive gear to fight a scout? -snip- if Ajax ever logs in again, I'll ask him to go axe so we can pvp, and I'll gladly record that for you,-snip-
Now moving on, the better thing for you to address, is how you can change axe champions from being a purely "single-target" focused class into an AOE one to make them more versatile, or something of the sort. They already have the insane high damage compared to spear \ sword.



Start posting your gear, your runes, etc on that Axe Champion, enlighten us all then if I am being bias'd.


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#15 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:45 AM

 

 

You're the one who's extremely biased pal, and you can't get over your head-high heels.

I did watch the video..
The only time I start doing insane damage is when I get enough critical damage stacks, maybe you should look into Ice Arrow?

Maybe I should just quote you. "You completely ignored my rethort about leonis putting the skill passives and traps that scouts have now as a bandaid, etc.."
Seems like you're getting a lot of benefit from those 'bandaid' fixes.


From the start burst damages, most of the time I am doing 4K criticals without stacks,

80% of my Enraged Berserk damage [mind you, a high cost cooldown]

when I have crit damage stacks I'm going to rape your face for 10K impacts all day long because of how high your HP is,

Perfectly feeds into my point about Axe Fury being broken and taking far too long to stack. Thanks for that.

and the amount of Pierce defense I've acquired for Champions, just like you.
Maybe you should start from a stand point of the best offensive gear to fight a scout? but no, you're not going to do that and you're going to keep putting recessed garbage videos to skewer opinions. if Ajax ever logs in again, I'll ask him to go axe so we can pvp, and I'll gladly record that for you

Just make sure you have a video of him and yours equipment at the same time, show the buffing process, and show them seamlessly side by side. Last time someone 'offered' to do this, it was a rigged comparison, and resulted in not just Axe Champs being nerfed, it was all Champs, you know, the one you're complaining about "I used to main champion before they nerfed them into the ground by the way, so no thanks,". 



Now moving on, the better thing for you to address, is how you can change axe champions from being a purely "single-target" focused class into an AOE one to make them more versatile, or something of the sort. They already have the insane high damage compared to spear \ sword.

This shows your lack of Knowledge. Axes Def Down shout combined with their Burn and Secondary AoE with 1 AoE Radius rune is easily comparable to a scaled down Bourge burn AoE. The Critical Tics on it make it extremely powerful when used correctly. They don't need AoE capability. Like I said, go play one, before you continue assuming things you don't know.



Start posting your gear, your runes, etc on that Axe Champion, enlighten us all then if I am being bias'd.

You're the one who wanted to jump to a conclusion on my runes and EQ. I'll just let you have fun doing that. But I will say this much, my gear works perfectly fine, it was purpose built for a build to address game-play imbalances and under-powered mechanics the class has to deal with. In-case you forgot, I can hold my own just fine against classes that aren't over powered. Scouts are over-powered. Deal with it. 

Edit:
Anyway, you already answered and proved the OP's thread to be accurate.

"I used to main champion before they nerfed them into the ground" ~Snuwfer

So shut up. 


Edited by Dragonlark, 23 September 2017 - 09:37 AM.

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#16 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:55 AM

Nobody is crying bud, nobody.
You're the one who is crying for a buff to Axe Champions because you lack proper game knowledge to properly build one.
You're the one screaming to nerf bow scouts, a class that is already in the playing field of a Bourgeious or Artisan, lmao.
You're the one who is constantly getting these malicious ideas for skill changes for classes all of the time.

I've told you, I don't like the passives and traps for bow scouts, many of times, and most of the people who play scout don't like them either, it's retarded that bow scouts, a ranged assassin class is depending on setting a trap in combat.
and Ice Arrow, Fire Arrow, Wind Arrow, hardly stack, they're a low %, and should be higher, and the cooldown timers are too low on the passive proc.


You want me to lay out a beastly build for your Axe Champion that will rofl stomp classes? A goal for you? or something so you do have proper insight that you're doing things wrong for axe champion, I have confidence in that, that's for sure.


You say that it doesn't need AOE? What do you want then? to make Champions another Raider? What is your end goal here, bub?
Any real active player in PvP knows that without stacking crit damage with that AOE, it is a garbage AOE and does not hurt, with a lack luster range. It could be more with an proper accommodated build.
Either way, You're going to get what you want eventually, and enjoy it when you do. Because there is hardly anybody left playing ROSE anymore, and you should probably be snubbing your damn nose into that issue, other than your ridiculous thoughts you've been having lately of skill updating classes.
For gods sake, you thought of giving a spear champion a ranged sleep...




You and I both know that berserk was fixed and it made Champions meh, I moved on to better classes because they became rendered pointless at the current meta, stop trying to fixate more wording(s) into my mouth.

Edited by Snuwfer, 22 September 2017 - 07:00 AM.

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#17 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 07:05 AM

Your offer of a build isn't necessary. Here's 1 of about 18 builds I ran. -These are just notes from a while ago, don't take them to heart-

Spoiler


But still. Let's address your lies now.

"Nobody is crying bud, nobody."
You are.

"You're the one who is crying for a buff to Axe Champions because you lack proper game knowledge to properly build one."
"I used to main champion before they nerfed them into the ground" ~Snuwfer

"You're the one screaming to nerf bow scouts, a class that is already in the playing field of a Bourgeious or Artisan, lmao."
Scouts are played 10x+ more often then either of those classes, they're not comparable.

"You say that don't need AOE? What do you want then? to make Champions another Raider? What is your end goal here, bub?"
1: Fix the Axe Fury passive to function as intended during it testing phase on Pegasus, but was never finalized.
2: Fix the bug where you can't Absorb off of Mana Barriers / Mana Shields [This affects all Absorption, not just Axes btw]
3: Fix the cooldown on the Absorption to match the cooldown range of Bloody Assault / Absorptive Strike [roughly 12 seconds particularly since you don't have a static healing amount, while the other 2 do]
4: Fix the bug where you don't get HP if you kill the target with the skill [Already confirmed as a bug by the DEV team]
5: Change the Critical Down to a Critical Defense down to restore what the skills function was supposed to do.
6: Finally, Give them either [A] Scaling on the Critical Defense Down and Static Healing on the skills, or [B] -Preferably- Critical Defense added to a Passive they already have, to restore the Critical Defense mechanic that was stripped and never replaced.

Essentially, I want bugs to be fixed, 1 skill to be finished in it's implementation, and 1 skill to be updated to reflect how it was designed to function.
So tbh, nothing, I literally want nothing other than bugs to be fixed, and for their skills to function the way they were designed to function....

"Any real active player in PvP knows that without stacking crit damage with that AOE, it is a garbage AOE and does not hurt, with a lack luster range. It could be more with an proper accommodated build."
Refer to build notes and see that Attack Speed was a factor in order to more efficiently build up the Fury Stacks to enable a quick execution of the Burn phase, k thanxs.

 

Edited by Feuer, 22 September 2017 - 07:08 AM.

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#18 Cortiz

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 07:19 AM

We have talked abut this before.

 

 

Everyone knows AXE champ sucks, otherwise people would actualy play it,

the only reason you see a axe champ every now and then is because they want to try axe build.  ( lets face it, axes are cool  B) )

 

Sure you could kill a couple of players from time to time, just like all classes can (even Artisans) but only because axe is based on critical hits.
Axe champs sucks, and they dont realy fit the current meta, there accuracy is terrible and there survivalbility, just like Artisan is a joke in comparison to lets say; Scouts, Raiders, Clerics, Mages, and even spear champs!


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#19 Phish

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 10:45 AM

Oh man, there is never a civil discussion here.

 

Feuer brings up logical and reasonable issues with Axe champions and is probably be accredited more than anyone else on class. A classes popularity is usually a good way to gauge the viability of itself for the most part and I can confidentially say I've seen a grand total of zero Axe Champs in Draconis Peaks since April when I came back to Rose. If the classes truly was in a good state surely there would be some people playing them, but the majority are spear with the occassional sword champ but even those are rare.

 

 


Edited by Phish, 22 September 2017 - 10:46 AM.

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#20 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 04:53 PM

Maybe, for the love of god, after me saying it a million different times, nerf spear champions? instead of buffing them and giving them more bullcrap

 

 

Obviously, players would rather play a more versatile spear champion inside of Game Arena PvP, because they're going to shine more than a class that is solely designed for 1 vs 1. Sword champs were always the more versatile of the three, and spear champions were always speed\mobility, however that's completely changed for whatever reason, axe champs were always a slow, skill casting, damage class.

 

 

Would you rather play a class that has insane range, good defense, good mobiity, the best debuff available, and non-stop AOE spams that can crit for 5k+ against 6-8K defense...

or, would you play a class that is very slow, with good amount of CC, insanely high single target damage, that can literally nuke non-dodge classes..

 

It's apple to peaches, but one is obviously more beneficial to play, but that doesn't mean you're going to have the right to scream for an axe champions buff without considering the fact, that maybe the other styles available have been buffed too much for the game meta, and need to be toned down.


Edited by Snuwfer, 22 September 2017 - 04:57 PM.

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#21 Phish

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 05:39 PM

Is nerfing Spear champs the answer though? Isn't that basically how Axes came to the position they are in now? In the past they were in a better spot obviously, were they broken? I don't know. Spear Champ's got nerfed in pvp with the damage reduction on aoes hitting multiple targets.

 

 

 

So in pvm Spear champs are very strong for sure, but in pvp, no not exactly. It's good to have a spear champ on your team in pvp, for like you said, they have strong and useful buffs, and strong debuff that cripples the enemy team mainly, they can force the enemy team to need to spread out due to their onslaught of aoes too. In reality though, they feel more of a benefit to the team for their 'support' capabilities than their actual offense which is kind of ironic. Champ's damage is quite lackluster compared to raiders, and even though spear champs make it desirable to spread out against, their aoes do pitiful damage when they are hitting so many targets.


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#22 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:54 PM

No, the damage mitgation % nerf was not enough imho, it should be more than what it is.

I've seen spear champs hitting like 7-10 enemies at once and they're doing 3K crits, that's a lot of damage to make up for if you're trying to heal on an FS, and they're going to obliterate salamander flames.

 

 

and honestly, yes I do think it's the right answer. Almost all classes in game need attention and have them toned down. ROSE has become a "who can snowball the most in a build and 3 hit others." meta game, and it's disgusting.

 

Raiders are another story, they need attention on so many different levels that it's absurd, as of right now they're the best ranged and melee class in the game, very very broken.
my charm raider can dish out more DPS just by doing throwable dots, and having only 1 rune in the face item, than my 6\6 level 100 runed scout can dish out, simply because of crit damage %, dots, and the amount of snowballing you're able to achieve with almost everything critical related in the game by playing a raider.

 

 

 

 

You do not see Spear Champions using single attack skills like they should be in PvP when they're aoeing 7+ numbers at once, I feel as if there should be a hard damage fall off after a certain number of enemies you're hitting, and not have it so linear. ALMOST every spear champion I've fought in PvP JC during wars, are set on a 3rd party program bot and abused by broken game meta, same thing can go for Full Support Clerics, scouts as well having set mute traps constantly.


Edited by Snuwfer, 22 September 2017 - 06:58 PM.

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#23 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:55 PM

Topic is about Axe Champs, stay on topic. 


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#24 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 07:02 PM

:\ you post that because you're literally thwarted out of ideas to argue your wanting anymore.

why are you so worried about me posting on your thread and giving insight? could only wonder why it's triggering you  :wah:  :wah:  :wah:

 

 

 

oh hey, the dupers are starting to sell stacks of Celestial whistles now, pretty irrelevant to this thread, but did I not tell you that certain players have been abusing Celestial Whistle inside of Game Arena\PVP?

I wonder, I mean I can only seriously wonder, if anybody did legitly buy 999 Celestial Whistles.. why would they do that? LOL


Edited by Snuwfer, 22 September 2017 - 07:05 PM.

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#25 Phish

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 07:55 PM

You do not see Spear Champions using single attack skills like they should be in PvP when they're aoeing 7+ numbers at once, I feel as if there should be a hard damage fall off after a certain number of enemies you're hitting, and not have it so linear. ALMOST every spear champion I've fought in PvP JC during wars, are set on a 3rd party program bot and abused by broken game meta, same thing can go for Full Support Clerics, scouts as well having set mute traps constantly.

 

Spear Champs aren't using the single target skills because they're mediocre with the exception of Longinus attack; and getting it requires you to spend points on all alleged mediocre skills to begin with.


Edited by Phish, 22 September 2017 - 07:56 PM.

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