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#26 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 08:04 PM

The fact that spear champ can spin AOEs in the same spot for days, and doesn't have to actually move or engage on anybody, by that I mean selecting a name and moving to the target and actively pursuing to initiate damage.

Those mediocre skills are a lot stronger than you think when you've finished skill power % runes, and so forth. If they're still lack luster to an AOE that's damaging 7 different people, then there's identified proof that something is wrong with that class, wouldn't you agree?

 

Why were spear champs so indefinitely skewered for single target damage? It's almost rendered playing a bourgeois pointless in PvP if you wanted to compare AOE kings to AOE kings, that is however with the way things are now.


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#27 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 08:26 PM

Your argument that spears are OP is based on factors that can be used to justify the same OP'ness on Mages and potentially Cannon Bourgs, Artisans and Dual Wield Raiders.

And no, I'm not out of ideas, I listed 10, none of which you addressed. Because you have an agenda, nothing more. 


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#28 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 08:57 PM

A mage is very squishy, and has to pay attention to when to use mana shield when PvPing, it isn't completely a Champion, sir.

Cannon Bourgs are a joke, have fun finally being viable in PvP once you've actually finished 3 or 4 runes, lol. I think we went over this before, where you drew some 8th grade diagram and tried to reference the fact that a bourg gets to cast from a ranged stand point and the AOE expands from the center of where the skill hits.. yep, I mean, I would hope Bourgs have that considering how they've got it in game right now.

Artisans could probably be nerfed imho ;) even to this day I die from two dots by an Artisan, and they'll destroy an Champion w/ hard CC, pierce def, and dots.

I'm not sure where you're going on about duals, they have lack luster AOEs compared to a champion.

 

 

 

I'm happy with Axe Champoins having a 28 second health steal cool down, I'm glad, it should stay that way. They're a tanky class with high burst damage, and a large HP pool.

There's tons of classes in game that don't have critical defense %, what are you bickering about here? This is why I started going off about building one correctly, because this is bogus. You really want to give Axe Champions a crit defense % passive that will obviously be used in builds to snowball stats?

Your axe fury passive is just as bad as scouts, if not scouts are worse. You get to get passive stacks from hit damage, other classes do not get that option, I think that's pretty moot and fair, no?

I'm sick and tired of people crying about axes not having proper accuracy. This is 2017 ROSE Online Feurer, the dodge rate system is broken, the accuracy is not going to matter, i promise you. Even in your skewered video you posted, remember right? You hit like three 5Ks back to back to me on a scout and made me back pedal. That's a runed scout vs an axe champion because I let you get close, a NON-GEARED axe champion at that. I don't hit geared champions for 10K, never have and I never will.

 

You're complaining about not being able to close gaps on enemies? You should probably look into a proper build for when you need to do that then, and not just throw BS up in the forums to get your way because you feel it isn't just.

Axe champions have a ranged CC, the thing you were crying for spear champions to get, remember? Even now, spear champions, and sword champions are damage soaks, THEY'RE TANKY CLASSES. They're meant to be damage soaking in PvP, it's been apart of a champions role since the game was made, buddy.

 

 

Please, I ask you to watch this video, and others that view this thread so they can really get an idea of how an axe champion can be viable in PvP still, and WhyDIe is the person I'm asking you to obersve in the video so you can get the general idea of how ridiculous an Axe Champion already can be. WhyDIe was not fully geared during this time either, sadly this player has left ROSE Online and moved on. I know it's not a very good video, but if you observe and watch WhyDIe you will see the general usefulness an Axe Champion really does have in PvP. The amount of single target damage he is dishing out to raiders and enemies is 8K+ crits from the majority of skills being casted.

 

 


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#29 Feuer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 09:35 PM

A mage is very squishy, and has to pay attention to when to use mana shield when PvPing, it isn't completely a Champion, sir.

 

Magic Damage. Or did you forget that's a thing. A MAge can 40% HP Cap on a champ with nearly every skill on their bar, INCLUDING AoE's. BC destroy all forms of Soldiers. Artisans can even cripple then if they have a gun build with both magic shots. Hell, even SF has 2 magic skills, Knights have 2 magic Skills for 1H and 2 Magic Skills for xBow. Raiders have 2 or 3 depending on build. And guess what, no magic defense runes. 

 

Cannon Bourgs are a joke, have fun finally being viable in PvP once you've actually finished 3 or 4 runes,

 

You can say the same thing about most classes. Because you're comparing a non-runed to a runed result. 
 

Artisans could probably be nerfed imho ;) even to this day I die from two dots by an Artisan, and they'll destroy an Champion w/ hard CC, pierce def, and dots.

Right, the class that's closest equivalent is a Visitor needs to be nerfed. You do realize that the artisan has two options for consider for builds? Kill it absolutely as quickly as possible. Or run. You don't get hide, you don't get any defensive mechanics to try and build into, you don't have decloak, you don't get squat. You get essentially what a bourge gets from first tree, and then 4 useful skills after that. All offensive, or built to help you run away. Artisans are Visitors with a few offensive skills, nothing more. They defo need a nerf because you still haven't figured out how to tank one.... 
 

I'm not sure where you're going on about duals, they have lack luster AOEs compared to a champion.

 

They can survive AoE situations better than a Spear can, and they have 4 AoE's, one is a stacking defense and healing received reduction... 

 

I'm happy with Axe Champoins having a 28 second health steal cool down, I'm glad, it should stay that way. They're a tanky class with high burst damage, and a large HP pool.

Then by that logic, Duals, and Knights should have a 28 second cooldown on their absorption. And Clerics should only get 1 self heal that has a 28 second cooldown. Because that can be applied to all of those situations. And considering Mage's Barrier is essentially an eHP Pool, that should also have a 28 second cooldown considering their ability to Dodge tank and maintain range advantage but whatever. 
 

There's tons of classes in game that don't have critical defense %, what are you bickering about here? This is why I started going off about building one correctly, because this is bogus. You really want to give Axe Champions a crit defense % passive that will obviously be used in builds to snowball stats?

I want them to give the Defense stat Axes were designed to have, back to them due to an over-sight. If they removed your Camo from Scout and jsut 'forgot' to add it back, you'd say the same thing, so shut up. 
 

Your axe fury passive is just as bad as scouts, if not scouts are worse.

...kek.

You get to get passive stacks from hit damage, other classes do not get that option, I think that's pretty moot and fair, no?

Nope. Raiders get 3 stacks from Hits.
Fire Mages get their stacks without needing to land the hit, just attempting a cast will do. [Which considering they're a skill class with no melee capability, I consider this the same case]
BC's get their stacks on Melee Attacks.
Knights get their stacks on Melee Hits.
Guns get Excitable Trigger Finger from Melee Attacks
Dual Raiders apply stacks on Melee Hits.
Sword Champs build up to their stack from Melee Hits.
Spear Champions build up their stacks with Melee Hits.
... Think I made my point. 

 

 

I'm sick and tired of people crying about axes not having proper accuracy. This is 2017 ROSE Online Feurer, the dodge rate system is broken, the accuracy is not going to matter, i promise you.

I wouldn't trust a promise from you anymore than I'd trust a promise from an escaped convict. 

Even in your skewered video you posted, remember right? You hit like three 5Ks back to back to me on a scout and made me back pedal.

By back to back, I'm assuming you're not counting the 'x' number of misses and seconds in between. 

That's a runed scout vs an axe champion because I let you get close, a NON-GEARED axe champion at that.

You still keep assuming I don't have any end-game gear on my char, and yet you have no reason to assume otherwise. This is your confirmation bias trying to justify itself. Stop doing that. 

I don't hit geared champions for 10K, never have and I never will.

Enraged Berserk. it's a 30% Defense cost, and it's the only way an axe can hit decent damage without* critting. 

 

You're complaining about not being able to close gaps on enemies? You should probably look into a proper build for when you need to do that then,

*yawn* This argument is something I have made many responses to. If a class needs to have a set of gear for every single situation that can occur, then it's not competitive. Seeing as you don't have the option to switch gear in combat, this makes you entirely ineffective in group content. You don't get the just swap equipment each time to target a new enemy. This is also why I hate how you cherry pick situations that are drastically different in each aspect, to build up a iron man fallacy and justify your squeels of wanting something nerfed.

and not just throw BS up in the forums to get your way because you feel it isn't just.

You have been responding this whole time as if I made this thread, look again. And trust me, you can even check yesterday's live-stream clip and see that the 'other' axe champion, is also dissatisfied with it. Not only do you have 1-2 Champions saying somethings wrong [the only two trying to play the class atm], you have two former Champion Class representatives saying something is wrong. Who would you think is going to be telling the truth, the two people who play actively the class in question and two former COMMUNITY vote-elected representatives, or someone who has clearly demonstrated a personal disdain for an individual representing this request and using extremely poor situational and cheery picked examples to further their agenda? 
 

Axe champions have a ranged CC, the thing you were crying for spear champions to get, remember?

Scouts have 2. that's a 200% increased comparison. 
 

Even now, spear champions, and sword champions are damage soaks, THEY'RE TANKY CLASSES.

1: Because Spears can stack upwards of 5k Dodge.
2: Because SF's can lock out all DPS skills for 6 or 7 seconds in a Skill Meta game.

Axe Champs used to tank in an Aspeed* Meta, by using stuns, and being able to reduce crits. Neither of those two are factors in this meta. [well, one isn't a factor, the other was stripped from their capabilities]

But here's a fun one, Bow Scouts can keep a 100% mute rate up that's an AOE! Nerf plis. 


They're meant to be damage soaking in PvP, it's been apart of a champions role since the game was made, buddy.

Too bad they're not doing that. [Axes]

 

 

Please, I ask you to watch this video, and others that view this thread so they can really get an idea of how an axe champion can be viable in PvP still, and WhyDIe is the person I'm asking you to obersve in the video so you can get the general idea of how ridiculous an Axe Champion already can be. WhyDIe was not fully geared during this time either, sadly this player has left ROSE Online and moved on. I know it's not a very good video, but if you observe and watch WhyDIe you will see the general usefulness an Axe Champion really does have in PvP. The amount of single target damage he is dishing out to raiders and enemies is 8K+ crits from the majority of skills being casted.

 

 


Edited by Feuer, 22 September 2017 - 10:01 PM.

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#30 Snuwfer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 10:00 PM

You've literally gone through and have said you're playing on a geared axe champion

When I pummeled you for a 10k impact, can you go through and already post your gear so I can start laughing, at YOUR lies? Your argument is because you used Berserk so that allowed me to hit you for 10K.. No, it's the fact that I stacked like 9 crit damage stack passives off of you.

 

You pointed out my obvious fact with the critical passive stacking, you have it better than any class in game apparently if that's the case, so what are you crying about having a broken passive that can't stack? LOL

 

 

Scouts have a low chance to stun with PvP Impact Arrow, so sure. Whatever is gonna float your boat buddy.

 

 

I don't get why you think arguing the fact that a SF using a mute equals them becoming a damage soak, not sure where this is coming from, -snip-

 

 

I'm not sure why you're crying about not being able to switch gear in combat to accommodate a build, I said build, not try to mix match PVP honor sets to gain an advantage \ opportunity in a fight.

 

The spear champs that are stacking dodge, they're peasants for damage and merely a damage soak, and that is all they're going to do in the middle of the fight\war, debuff, and spam puny aoe damages, maybe using crit damage to benefit the burn that they could use.

 

 

 

Again, I do not care for the opinions of others when they feel that their class isn't right and come to the forums crying about wanting a change, simply because they can't play the game like I have seen others play, and let me remind you that I do not care if you have 80% of the ROSE server agreeing with you.

 

 

 

 

Can you please enlighten me on what this whole "agenda" thing has become? I mean, I literally pointed this fact out to you first, so why are you trying to flip the script on me and tell me that I'm the one that's on a mission to cause havoc?

-Snip-

 

You were hitting a scout that has almost 7K dodge rate, with 2.1k accuracy, and you're going to cry about missing a few melee attacks?

But when you do actually hit, being ungeared, you are dealing that amount of damage? Can you see where this logic is going backwards?

 

 

Can you put a little more insight on how axe passives are not superior to a scouts? Simply you put ...kek. because you can't argue against somebody who's completely right in that regard.

 

 

 

At this point in the game Feu, cloaking is not a matter anymore, the amount of range decloak that players obtain from runes, is absurd. Not even that, but when you do cloak to escape enemies now, you're going to take delayed skill damage while Cloaked, happens 95% of the time when I try to escape via Cloak, because the game is poorly supported and bugs are exploited constantly. I don't even care if you were to take cloak from scouts, they do not need a cloak.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, an AOE range casted sleep on an artisan is probably one of the best defensive mechanics any class in game has right now, it can demobilize an entire group of enemy players for 15 seconds while a cordinated team could start picking out the squishys \ healers while others are slept. Please stop with the garbage of Artisans being a "visitor" , they're not, they're damn good in PvP. Kind of why I helped a friend fully rune one, over any other class that was available to rune in the game... They're that damn good. I love playing artisan and being the under-dog omniscient person, 3 shotting the raiders who usually 3 shot I mean, skill stack everything else. You can go home with your antics of Aritsans being under powered already, it's an old dog of a story.

 

 

 

Your argument about the life steal is completely ridiculous and poorly thought out to argue against why a 28 second life-steal skill is completely fine. Again, Knights are another class in ROSE Online thought could use attention to be nerfed and toned down a bit, but hey, lets just go ahead and start buffing everything so the entire game becomes a 3 shot skill spam fest, right?  :heh:

 

 

You are crying about magic defense, when I have told you about 50x in this thread already, to learn how to build and accomodate, adapt to the situation that you're fighting in, otherwise become moose meat, practically.  :thx:

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, if you decloak traps, or destroy them, it removes the debuff it gave you instantly, a little food for thought since, you're so knowledgeable.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Dragonlark, 23 September 2017 - 09:49 AM.

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#31 Dragonlark

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 09:55 AM

Insulting other players, bashing the game, and going off topic are against our forum terms of use. Comments breaking these rules in this thread have been moderated or removed. I tried to leave as much of the discussion as possible when going through this thread, however some posts contained too many breaks of the terms of use to remain. Further issues of this kind may result in further forum moderation such as posts edited or removed. Those posting found to continue to break these rules after this warning may be placed on forum moderation, or suspension from the forums. 

 

We appreciate feedback and discussions regarding improving ROSE Online, however we do ask that you treat other people posting on the forums with respect when posting said feedback.


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#32 Snuwfer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 04:11 PM

Probably better to delete proposals & suggestions from ROSE's sub-forums. Pegasus is not an ongoing thing anymore

I trust Genesis to have enough fidelity in ROSE to make appropriate changes that are needed to the game when they're made.


Edited by Snuwfer, 23 September 2017 - 04:11 PM.

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#33 Feuer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 05:33 PM

... Right, don't get what you want, so the community would just be better off without the idea to propose things at all. Not just class changes, but they wouldn't be able to propose thigns like new content modes, changes to boss mechanics that would make the game more fun, new consumables or throw-able items for fun, everything. 

If that's a serious proposition, I have to STRONGLY oppose it. 


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#34 Snuwfer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 08:05 PM

You still haven't provided solid proof against what I have provided, video evidence of an Axe Champion doing just fine in PvP Gameplay, yet you're still going out of your way to say I'm selfish in between the lines, lol.

The only thing I could see possibly being righteous to change on Axe Champions would be the crit down debuff, everything else seems pretty much mutually balanced.

Scouts got flame hawk removed, and they were gaven to Raiders for god knows why, I've never complained, or cried for changes on the forums for it.

Scouts got their mspd nerfed like crazy, and dodge, and accuracy, and attack speed, I never cried on the forums to have it changed or buffed.

Scouts got one of the most valuable self buffs, dual phantasm I believe it was called, removed and no longer usable.

I'd rather have the old Point Blank arrow than the Impact now, but it's moot and impact has it's bonuses, no I never made threads demanding changes.

The only thing I have ever complained about on scouts, to try and get what I wanted, along with others that played scout, is to have traps and their passive skills reworked, because they were put in the game as a "bandaid" for scouts and never were intended to stay, but here we are.

and again, you can get rid of the mute once the trap is decloaked, or destroyed, so no you will not be "perma-muting"

New consumable items or throw-able items for fun, are you kidding me? They should be focusing on so many other things than spending their time working on "useless" "pointless" "gimic" ideas, this is something of the sort which you told me, me saying that I'm always crying about pseudo bugs, duping, skills bugging, dots breaking, etc. The majority of in game content created lately was not good for the games economy\population, and the majority of these changes came from "user feedback\suggestions." Junon Cartel, the Paradigm shift update, skill update, DOT meta, etc.

When they did not take the communitys ideas as a whole, and did things their way, the game was much more stable, enjoyable, and not skewered to certain classes as much as it is now. I'm not saying they completely ignored peoples concerns about things, but I'm talking about general game changing updates that are brought in through community ideas.

 

 

 

I enjoyed it much more, when GenTest existed, and there was a VERY FEW select people that were free, and had access to ROSE's test server to see what the incoming updates were going to be like. The players did not get to tell Genesis what they wanted changed, only to remark about what was broken in the test server, and what did work which had been implemented into the game. I also wish they had kept the original Draconis Peaks map, but hey, apples to peaches. These players also were invited to a Ventrilo \ Teamspeak server to talk via VoIP to Genesis while testing new game mechanics \ dungeons \ PvP arenas, it was a much better environment to be had for something like this,  than what we're provided for today. If the community could stop throwing bias'd ideas into the proposal & suggestions sub forum, I'd probably not be this way, but the majority of input in this sub forum is .. literally un-needed, bias'd, and selfish wanting(s).


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#35 Feuer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 09:30 PM

 

 

"You still haven't provided solid proof against what I have provided, video evidence of an Axe Champion doing just fine in PvP Gameplay, yet you're still going out of your way to say I'm selfish in between the lines, lol."

 

Right, because I don't have to. Providing a video on a clan war in JC with the utilizations of full stat buffs, a fairy for half the video, as well as a game play mode which doesn't accurately reflect any GA gameplay, is void of purpose. Responding to it would only serve to muddy up the expressed concerns and reports of bugs with the class. Bugs the dEV's have already acknowledged as being exactly that, bugs. 

 

"The only thing I could see possibly being righteous to change on Axe Champions would be the crit down debuff, everything else seems pretty much mutually balanced."

 

Righteous? Aside from your inability to use proper synonyms, there is more than that skill fix needed to restore them to their designed function. But we'll get to that at the end.

 

"Scouts got flame hawk removed, and they were gaven to Raiders for god knows why, I've never complained, or cried for changes on the forums for it."

 

1: Scouts didn't lose flame hawk, it was renamed to Phoenix Arrow. It's the same skill, only stronger. 
2: Raiders always had 2 fire-hawk styled skills, it wasn't given to them for no reason. It was always there, but because so very few players properly mastered an impact skill based Burn Raider, it seems to have gone unnoticed. 

3: Isn't that what you literally just did, brought it up as a complaint? If you really are so, mmm, forgiving of changes and able to flex, why bring it up at all, why now? To advance your agenda which in this remark was based on something wholly false? ...

 

"Scouts got their mspd nerfed like crazy, and dodge, and accuracy, and attack speed, I never cried on the forums to have it changed or buffed."

 

1: No they didn't, and I'd like for you to cite that difference if you want to continue using that as an argument.

2: If you're referring to Buff sets removal, then my preemptive retort is, everyone lost buff-sets, not just Scouts. 

3: If your rebuttal to my retort is 'It affected Scouts more than anyone else' just know, no one will buy that. Pound for Pound, they were a global modifier that affected all classes equally when effectively utilized. 

4: Aren't you crying about it now? And I have seen you complain about it before, several times. In fact, every time class balance threads are made, you attempt to hi-jack them in order to muddy up the topic with spam, lies, misinformation, feckless examples and intellectually dishonest viewpoints in an attempt to obstruct the OP from being heard. It's a truly reprehensible method of trying to get your way, be it effective in the current iteration of the forums and game development as it is; it's still disgustingly contemptuous behavior. This tactic is probably why you don't win any debates, and why no one supports your opinions or propositions. You're a thread thief and saboteur who doesn't respond to questions levied against your ideas, and instead demands to be answered to as if, you're the one on a high horse? Now, I've done my best to not completely give up on answering your questions, despite them being completely irrelevant half the time, and am currently in the process of doing it still. I'd expect a level of professional courtesy at the end of this post, where I'll pose some questions to you, and hopefully you'll see to it that they're answered.

 

"I'd rather have the old Point Blank arrow than the Impact now, but it's moot and impact has it's bonuses, no I never made threads demanding changes."

 

1: Impact Arrow is Point Blank arrow, only you no longer need to be within 15m to cast it. 

2: If naming the old skill names was your gambit on being perceived as knowing what you're talking about, you're failing miserably as so far every skill from the past skill system that you've mentioned is currently in use under a different name and was actually made better than it's old iteration; as the updates to the skill systems back-end made it possible for a higher level of creative usage of said skill system. 

3: I'm sure you've never 'demanded' changes, but I'd bet if I were to look around, there'd be plenty of posts from specifically you, that would be synonymous with a 'request' to have things changed. But if you're going to hinge it on SPECIFICALLY a demand, so what. I've never made a proposition written on a peanut butter sandwhich, that doesn't mean that the information in my posts is somehow 'more clean' than anyone else's or deserves to be heard more or less. It's completely inconsequential if you've made a demand or not, you've expressed desire~ to have something changed, and dozens of posts. 

 

"The only thing I have ever complained about on scouts, to try and get what I wanted, along with others that played scout, is to have traps and their passive skills reworked, because they were put in the game as a "bandaid" for scouts and never were intended to stay, but here we are."

 

1: When the skill system was first implemented, those elemental arrows didn't have procs at all. In fact, you can thank iMatt / Mathias / AchIIHu for the stats that are proc'd from those now. I simply helped to get the proposal rolling. They were intended to stay, but they weren't intended to be a stacking utility. So you're welcome that you even HAVE ice arrow stacks to begin with.
2: Traps actually were fully intended to be a final product for Scouts. I don't know where you got the idea they were a temporary skill placement. They wouldn't have spent the time modeling the mesh, texturing it, and applying the complex AI needed to run them, if it was just a 'quick fix'. 


"and again, you can get rid of the mute once the trap is decloaked, or destroyed, so no you will not be "perma-muting"

1: Destroying the trap after you've been muted, snapped or blinded [respective attributes of the traps] does not do that. Their duration is 5 seconds across all of those statuses, and they kill themselves in the process of being triggered, even if there is a slight delay. Which means there's no difference between you killing the trap, and the trap killing itself.
2: Of course kill a trap before it applies a status to you removes it's ability to apply it, it's dead. 
3: If your complaint or point was that traps aren't good because they can be countered, the you under-estimate their value in large scale content where positioning is key to winning. Traps are best when used for area denial, not as a combat mechanic. You place them in a position where you don't want an enemy to go, forcing them to either not go there, or take the risk of triggering the traps. Any other use of them is an ineffective tactic. 

 

"New consumable items or throw-able items for fun, are you kidding me? They should be focusing on so many other things than spending their time working on "useless" "pointless" "gimic" ideas, this is something of the sort which you told me, me saying that I'm always crying about pseudo bugs, duping, skills bugging, dots breaking, etc. The majority of in game content created lately was not good for the games economy\population, and the majority of these changes came from "user feedback\suggestions." Junon Cartel, the Paradigm shift update, skill update, DOT meta, etc."
 

1: Not everyone approaches ROSE as a pseudo-MOBA and are strictly focused on PvP. Some people play games for, get this, fun. And those people have every right to at MINIMUM post about things that they'd enjoy seeing in the future, or now. 
2: I did tell you that, but you're miss-representing what I said, you like to do this so let me clarify, not for you, because you know what I said and meant, but for the people following and reading this thread. I said, their immediate concern should be fixing large issues first* before going onto investigating your delusions. I firmly believe in a hierarchy of priority when it comes to DEV's focus. BUT, that doesn't mean that until all of those issues are fixed, that NOTHING else is allowed to be talked about. And your mental perception that every suggestion or idea for the game is being posted as a 'RIGHT NOW' thread, is why you keep yourself in this state of mind that everyone is being dumb. Because you don't understand where they're coming from. They may be fully aware that the idea could never happen, AND that if it does, could be off into the future of a year or more later, but still post it just to share their ideas. And there's nothing wrong with that. 
Junon Cartel - Yes, Community driven request. 
Paradigm Shift - No, that was not a community driven request. It was heavily influenced on feedback AFTER it was announced to be tested, but it was not an initiative of the community. 
Skill Update - Nope, wrong again. Entirely the DEV's idea. Which as hinted above in another one of my comments, was driven by the database update. The DEV's wanted to utilize their new capability by refreshing and updating the skill system. Not the community. 
DoT Meta - Eh, no, definitely wrong. In fact, this is something I'm extremely *^&*^d off about, as when I was testing this update, I very clearly gave instructions on how to balance the DoT's with the mechanics that existed at the time, but was ignored, a huge change to how DoT's scaled was implemented, and the only itemized method for tanking them was stripped entirely. This also came with the change with disallowed Shield users to block DoT's. So no, DoT as the current META was neither the community's idea, NOR was it what the Beta testers wanted as a final result. That was Leonis entirely, and I will not accept anything less than it being a result of his single perspective decision. 

 

"When they did not take the communitys ideas as a whole, and did things their way, the game was much more stable, enjoyable, and not skewered to certain classes as much as it is now. I'm not saying they completely ignored peoples concerns about things, but I'm talking about general game changing updates that are brought in through community ideas."

 

If you're talking about how the Hawker and Scout/Raider classes are massively over-represented and take up 80% of the classes actively played, I couldn't agree more, It is a problem, and should be fixed. But you don't want that. You want everything aside from Scouts to be nerfed, or held down in a state of obsolescence so you can be the top-dog and unchallenged on your favorite class. But I don't have to oppose you on this notion at all, I'll just let you hang yourself when the community realizes you want them to be silenced and for their opinions to be stifled because YOU don't want them to be heard. 

 

"If the community could stop throwing bias'd ideas into the proposal & suggestions sub forum, I'd probably not be this way, but the majority of input in this sub forum is .. literally un-needed, bias'd, and selfish wanting(s)."

 

Bias is your subjective opinion here. Not only are you simply using this label to dismiss it, but you're exemplifying precisely why no one wants to hear from you on anything about the game at all. You're emotional, bias, cretinous and to be blunt, annoyingly daft. And don't blame the community for being the way you are, it's not their fault you're in the position that you're in. You made a choice to be the way you are, accept that or don't. But don't spout off nonesense that you're not in control of your posts. 

Now, I've taken an extremely lengthy amount of time to FULLY respond to ALL of your points, I'd like to offer you a chance to extend that same courtesy in return; and to answer why the following things shouldn't be addressed. And try to do it without using cherry picked circumstances that vary wildly between the points? Can you try doing that for once? 

1: Fix the Axe Fury passive to function as intended during it testing phase on Pegasus, but was never finalized.
2: Fix the bug where you can't Absorb off of Mana Barriers / Mana Shields [Again, this affects all Absorption skills, not just the Axe Champs]
3: Fix the cooldown on the Absorption to match the cooldown range of Bloody Assault / Absorptive Strike [roughly 12 seconds particularly since you don't have a static healing amount, while the other 2 do]
4: Fix the bug where you don't get HP if you kill the target with the skill [Already confirmed as a bug by the DEV team, and affects all Absorption based skills]
5: Change the Critical Down to a Critical Defense down to restore what the skills function was supposed to do.
6: Finally, Give them either [A] Scaling on the Critical Defense Down and Static Healing on the skills, or [B] -Preferably- Critical Defense added to a Passive they already have, to restore the Critical Defense mechanic that was stripped and never replaced. Either solution would result in the Axe being able to tank critical hits slightly better. 

That's it. I'll keep it a short list, and I'll expect a pertinent response, not some idle mouthed muddied up cherry picked examples. As the vast majority of these are bugs and over-sights from changes to system functions. 


Edited by Feuer, 23 September 2017 - 09:49 PM.

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#36 Snuwfer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 09:58 PM

1: Fix the Axe Fury passive to function as intended during it testing phase on Pegasus, but was never finalized.

Axe fury is fine as it is, doesn't need changing. Other classes passives could be toned down a bit, I'm sure you could agree.
2: Fix the bug where you can't Absorb off of Mana Barriers / Mana Shields [Again, this affects all Absorption skills, not just the Axe Champs]

Not that big of a deal imho, and mana barriers are buggy to quite a few skills from different classes as well. Pretty sure it has something to do with mages shields, hence why no fix has been applied.
3: Fix the cooldown on the Absorption to match the cooldown range of Bloody Assault / Absorptive Strike [roughly 12 seconds particularly since you don't have a static healing amount, while the other 2 do]

Nope, tone the other classes down to match Axe Champions is the better route here. Not buffing to match others that are needing attention in regards of dps potential.
4: Fix the bug where you don't get HP if you kill the target with the skill [Already confirmed as a bug by the DEV team, and affects all Absorption based skills]

Sure, this could be fixed.
5: Change the Critical Down to a Critical Defense down to restore what the skills function was supposed to do.

Already told you this would be completely fine.
6: Finally, Give them either [A] Scaling on the Critical Defense Down and Static Healing on the skills, or [B] -Preferably- Critical Defense added to a Passive they already have, to restore the Critical Defense mechanic that was stripped and never replaced. Either solution would result in the Axe being able to tank critical hits slightly better. 

Absolutely not, they are a champion class with a large HP pool, good critical offense, and defense.

 

 

 

 

 

You also were very happy to see scouts losing dodge rate, and movement speed in previous threads. Something that actually made scouts an ranged assassin, they're low HP and def for a reason.


Edited by Snuwfer, 23 September 2017 - 10:00 PM.

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#37 Phish

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:21 PM

When did scouts lost mspeed?

 

Also why are you so content with letting the class with the second lowest attack speed have a passive that only procs with melees? Especially, close ranged melees at that. 


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#38 Snuwfer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:30 PM

Scouts used to have a very high m-spd from self buff, and passive. Now that Charm is an benefactor to both raiders and scouts, and the buffs\passives are an equal amount, they're the same amount of speed. Raiders used to always be slower than scouts

 

(I believe this change came around the time when Elemental Arrows were introduced, they decided since Wind Speed gave attack and movement speed, I'm assuming, that scouts no longer needed as much movement speed.)

 

 

 

As far as I'm aware they get procs from hitting w/ melee or a skill.

If not, then I prefer this to be the method for the proc if it isn't already.

 

Just noticed Feu insulted my "grammar" ... oh boy the strings are pulled.


Edited by Snuwfer, 23 September 2017 - 10:38 PM.

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#39 Feuer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:37 PM

It's not, It's on a successful, melee hit, @40% chance on both those conditions being true. [Using a skill even if it hits and is a 'melee' hit, will not roll for the stack, it's an auto-attack swing only condition]
It also, once maxed, does not refresh, and lasts for 10 seconds. Meaning once you get 5, for 10 seconds you have them, after that, they fall off and you must rebuild them again. 

 

Edit: I also want to further note, that it MASSIVELY increases your MP consumption. the 50% MP note on it, means everything costs a total of 150% normal MP once stacked to 5. This means Berserk, is 75% of your max MP, and your burst skills, will put you at OOM instantly. 


Edited by Feuer, 23 September 2017 - 10:40 PM.

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#40 Snuwfer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:40 PM

Then change it to where skills can apply a stack as well, like I said.

Other classes fight on a 25% proc, quit bickering about a 40% chance LOL

 

Can you tell me how much the passive gives per proc?

 

Scouts are 15 seconds, 25% chance, skill only (has to hit, the way it SHOULD BE, LOL) with a total of 10 stacks. Majority of the time you lose the stack before you can finish it unless you're fighting a non-dodge class and have the RNG gods on ur side, I'm a bit too lazy to login to see how much ice arrow give per stack


Edited by Snuwfer, 23 September 2017 - 10:42 PM.

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#41 Feuer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:41 PM

.... that's exactly what this line is referring to.

"1: Fix the Axe Fury passive to function as intended during it testing phase on Pegasus, but was never finalized."


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#42 Snuwfer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:43 PM

And I posted that, under the impression that axe fury worked while using a melee auto attack or skill, and it hitting.... derp?  :heh:  :heh:

 

 

Don't axe champions have the biggest AP pool in the game? Or close to it? Probably why Berserk is designed this way

 

HP + MP potions don't share the same cooldown timer.. so...


Edited by Snuwfer, 23 September 2017 - 10:45 PM.

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#43 Feuer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:51 PM

Do Axes have the highest AP pool in the game?

Nope.

That goes to Cannon Artisans and Cannon Bourges. 
Then it's a rough tie between Dual Wields, Axes and Swords.

 

The MP comment was just letting you know that Axes, fight on low MP almost 90% of the time, a single MP burn or Siphon trap will completely screw up their ability to Berserk, or use most of their high priority skills. Just a side comment, and can be fixed with proper item usage, just showing that the stack has many many factors you need to account for while trying to make use of it.

How to stack it.
When to burst
When to ignore the stacking process in case you start getting mana ripped

When you can't stack it.

etc etc. Lotta factors, but the biggest one is, it should stack on skill cast and/or auto-attacks, not just auto attacks. 


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#44 Snuwfer

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:53 PM

I'd like to see axes changed back to having the highest AP in the game then, if I remember back they were way up there next to cannons.

(NARose axe champions pretty much ruled PvP because how accuracy and dodge balancing made sense, and since axes were the big dog with stuns, and high AP they were mainly played by everybody, next in line was Battle Clerics because of the amount of stat advantage they obtained from using buff sets.)


Edited by Snuwfer, 23 September 2017 - 10:55 PM.

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#45 Cortiz

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 05:01 AM

Do Axes have the highest AP pool in the game?

Nope.

That goes to Cannon Artisans and Cannon Bourges. 
Then it's a rough tie between Dual Wields, Axes and Swords.

 

The MP comment was just letting you know that Axes, fight on low MP almost 90% of the time, a single MP burn or Siphon trap will completely screw up their ability to Berserk, or use most of their high priority skills. Just a side comment, and can be fixed with proper item usage, just showing that the stack has many many factors you need to account for while trying to make use of it.

How to stack it.
When to burst
When to ignore the stacking process in case you start getting mana ripped

When you can't stack it.

etc etc. Lotta factors, but the biggest one is, it should stack on skill cast and/or auto-attacks, not just auto attacks. 

 

Your talking about   Axe Fury  passive right?
If so, yea.

Its pritty rediculious to have that only proc on auto attacks when the class is so heavily reliant on using skills.

 

And If you think about it, the raider proc work with both auto attacks and skills if im not mistaken, so why exactly is this not the case for axe champs?


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#46 Feuer

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:28 AM

When I designed the first iteration of the skill, I was trying to be 'light' with it, I wanted it to work, but just enough that it gave them something to use, but my first estimations were too light, and the procs became extremely difficult to acquire. When I told the team about it, it was never responded to, on several attempts, and was then shoved onto the live server without further changes. I made several attempts to get it to either have a higher % on the auto-attack method, or to have it changed to both skill + melee, and even said making it proc off any critical hit would be nice. None of them were listened to. 

 

Personally, I'm a fan of it being proc'd off any type of critical damage dealt. But, anything that would make it more stable given it's already massive limiting factors [like not being able to keep it at 5 stacks/refreshed at 5] and the huge mana cost when it is up.... well, one thing at a time. I did design it, but I didn't get to give it my approval. 


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#47 henrycao

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 01:50 PM

 

Your offer of a build isn't necessary. Here's 1 of about 18 builds I ran. -These are just notes from a while ago, don't take them to heart-

Spoiler


But still. Let's address your lies now.

"Nobody is crying bud, nobody."
You are.

"You're the one who is crying for a buff to Axe Champions because you lack proper game knowledge to properly build one."
"I used to main champion before they nerfed them into the ground" ~Snuwfer

"You're the one screaming to nerf bow scouts, a class that is already in the playing field of a Bourgeious or Artisan, lmao."
Scouts are played 10x+ more often then either of those classes, they're not comparable.

"You say that don't need AOE? What do you want then? to make Champions another Raider? What is your end goal here, bub?"
1: Fix the Axe Fury passive to function as intended during it testing phase on Pegasus, but was never finalized.
2: Fix the bug where you can't Absorb off of Mana Barriers / Mana Shields [This affects all Absorption, not just Axes btw]
3: Fix the cooldown on the Absorption to match the cooldown range of Bloody Assault / Absorptive Strike [roughly 12 seconds particularly since you don't have a static healing amount, while the other 2 do]
4: Fix the bug where you don't get HP if you kill the target with the skill [Already confirmed as a bug by the DEV team]
5: Change the Critical Down to a Critical Defense down to restore what the skills function was supposed to do.
6: Finally, Give them either [A] Scaling on the Critical Defense Down and Static Healing on the skills, or [B] -Preferably- Critical Defense added to a Passive they already have, to restore the Critical Defense mechanic that was stripped and never replaced.

Essentially, I want bugs to be fixed, 1 skill to be finished in it's implementation, and 1 skill to be updated to reflect how it was designed to function.
So tbh, nothing, I literally want nothing other than bugs to be fixed, and for their skills to function the way they were designed to function....

"Any real active player in PvP knows that without stacking crit damage with that AOE, it is a garbage AOE and does not hurt, with a lack luster range. It could be more with an proper accommodated build."
Refer to build notes and see that Attack Speed was a factor in order to more efficiently build up the Fury Stacks to enable a quick execution of the Burn phase, k thanxs.

 

 

Have you ever thought about the values of each equipment in comparison to other equipment of the same slot? Because I don't think you have, or atleast correctly. If you can prove everything on your build from ground up, then talk. The current build you assembled together is based on what you think is good, but doesn't mean it is good. It's better to accept the fact that Axe Fury is an almost useless passive, but the only reason why you want it improved is so that it would suit your build better which is what I am getting at. That is not how things work, its not "Feuer makes a build, but doesn't find it good enough, then tell the GM to change it/make it better for him". Just play within the limits of each class, gear for the best SP value as if it were translatable to the cost values in the skill tree, then build your skill tree by determining the best skills/passives to take in ratio to max substats, then get the ratio's from relative max substats in game; convert it into decimal values and stat for the best RNG. I've finished axe because I did all of that, the fact that you don't pick the right equipment, nor do you synchronize equipments, skill tree passives, and stats. Your values are all estimations based on your subjectivity, then you believe something and try to convince tons of other players of something. Then we come to the wrong conclusions. If you want to make a very good build, every selection you make, you need to know why you make them; the best way to do that is to derive everything from mathematical calculation. Hint: make yourself an axiomatic deductive system, I guarantee you, you'll see a tremendous improvements in every class you make in the game, then I'm sure the entire server will listen to you because everyone can understand reason. If you understand the concepts, good because I have no intentions of making myself clear.

 

Hint: The only time you should use vagrant instead of wandering is when the 107 accuracy holds no value against the target you are fighting. That is where mathematically, vagrant is more valuable. bud, stop trying to do a one size fits all. By going glorious, your skill power, or hp + melee, or pierce defense goes to sh!t just to utilize half your equipment core stat.


Edited by henrycao, 23 November 2018 - 02:12 PM.

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#48 henrycao

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 02:45 AM

I would just like to address about Champion — Axe build. I really wanna try this and stay on this build, but even though my build is good, runes etc, and I have good CRIT rate, my damage to players are potato especially to raiders that has higher dodge rate now, my ACCURACY is potato even I put more stat into it, and my enemies make me also a potato. If you observe in game, no one plays axe so much, I think this is why! My friends make me shift to 2hand sword or spear, because they say axe really suck. I've switched back and forth to axe build, but I really want this. I hope this gets balanced. Ty.

Its about balancing accuracy, critical and attackpower. Follow the weapon description: "When mastered, the weight and balance can be used to lay waste to anything in its path."

When accuracy, critical and attackpower are all weighted properly; the better you weigh them, the stronger this class becomes. You don't want to put all your cards into accuracy, critical or attackpower. It doesn't work if you have an extreme on one end and a weakness on the others, believe me, I tried. It is only when all 3 are balanced that you have the most damage output. My axe can beat raiders, I am still working on the "Lay waste to anything" part. This class takes a while to learn but they don't suck. When mastered, they lay waste to anything in its path. Keep trying it :) don't give up on the game just because you think its not balanced. If you want to build strong characters, design it in the most optimal way over designing it the way you want to play it.

The best hint I can give you is to look at the max substats relative to your classes skill tree passives in the game, these max substats are full of ratio's. It will usually be part of your character build anyways.. Most players know how to ratio the scaling for highest base attackpower because of the rose na wiki. However, besides only building attack power, did you know you can figure out the values of con, sen, charm etc to its decimal values? It's because these developers made "balanced" max substats in the game for every class that you can just copy the ratios there and know the value of the 2 individual substats for being equivalent to each other. For example: 40ap.60critical is 2/3. 25str vs 25sen(with axe critical passive); 25str translates to 50ap, 25sen translates to 75critical. Hello?? would you look at that; 2/3 ratio again. 40ap, 100accuracy, there you go, now you know the ratio of attackpower to accuracy 2/5. figure out the amount of dex you need to get 40ap and amount of con you need to get 100accuracy. Example: dex=0.55ap 72.72..dex for 40ap, con=1.9acc 52.63..con for 100accuracy. 52.63../72.72.. x 0.55 = n. Because you know that dex ap is a 0.55/dex, you want to find out what con is in the same ratio. n=0.39802631.... But we are not done yet. We also need to additionally factor in critical we get from con because of the axe critical passives. Every 5 con gets you 2 critical. Converting that into a decimal value it becomes 0.4. attackpower to critical ratio is 2/3. 0.4/3*2 = m. m=.26666....7 Then n + m = 0.66469297.. now we have officially converted accuracy as if it were attackpower. lol if you understand this, good because its gg. now you just take the amount of dex you put (assuming you already have base attack ratio str to dex) and ratio it for con. keep in mind this is for axe, for other classes the values will be different. but anyway, there is a different equation for charm and sen.

 

Btw Feuer, don't use con accuracy on your axe, its wrong because strength training would have costed you 10sp to build 25str. It would have been better if you went str accuracy. I bet the reason why the GM doesn't listen to your class balancing complaints is because there are still things about the game that you've yet to understand.


Edited by henrycao, 24 November 2018 - 04:06 AM.

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#49 Feuer

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 09:36 PM

Henry, the fact you switched to Axe main after 90%+ of the GOOD pvpers quit the game because it's blatantly broken and imbalanced says everything that needs to be said about Axe Champions. I stopped* giving a rats ass about ROSE and Axe champions a long time ago, and they're still garbage, even yours. Your problem is the only people left are the no brains and die hards who like the fashion more than the content. 

 

I was maining axe, testing builds, discovering hidden stats you still don't even know about, and posting my findings before you even picked up the game in a semi-casual capacity. Quoting a post nearly 2 years old, completely out dated, not reflected by the current meta is why you're having an issue thinking I was on the right path. And yes, talking crap on a 2 year old post does make you look like a numpty. No one gives a crap, stop trying, and definitely stop quoting outdated posts. I'd really like to stop getting notifications about years old posts being quoted and responded to as if they're current discussions. There is a rule about necroing threads btw. 


Edited by Feuer, 24 November 2018 - 09:36 PM.

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#50 henrycao

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 07:44 AM

Henry, the fact you switched to Axe main after 90%+ of the GOOD pvpers quit the game because it's blatantly broken and imbalanced says everything that needs to be said about Axe Champions. I stopped* giving a rats ass about ROSE and Axe champions a long time ago, and they're still garbage, even yours. Your problem is the only people left are the no brains and die hards who like the fashion more than the content. 

 

I was maining axe, testing builds, discovering hidden stats you still don't even know about, and posting my findings before you even picked up the game in a semi-casual capacity. Quoting a post nearly 2 years old, completely out dated, not reflected by the current meta is why you're having an issue thinking I was on the right path. And yes, talking crap on a 2 year old post does make you look like a numpty. No one gives a crap, stop trying, and definitely stop quoting outdated posts. I'd really like to stop getting notifications about years old posts being quoted and responded to as if they're current discussions. There is a rule about necroing threads btw. 

actually, I am not an Axe main, I'm a champion main; I play all 3 weapon types so I actually know what I am talking about when it comes to champion builds. By the way, those 2 axe champions Snuwfer was talking about, both have consulted with me when building Axe incase you didn't know. I just didn't see this forum topic at the time to otherwise contribute to the discussion. Feuer, Axe champions aren't garbage, you just suck at building it; that is where your opinion is coming from and you gave up because you couldn't build it the way you wanted to play it. Your problem is your ego, the disbelief that you failed at building Axe, such that your willing to insult the intelligence of the entire server just to reinforce your belief.


Edited by henrycao, 02 December 2018 - 07:46 AM.

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