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#1 Kristof3195

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 04:25 AM

Short introduction I guess first

 

Well I started 4 years ago with twins on this server played every fun class geared them up left them and im back at square one class 

Dont hate me fellow twin players xD

 

Might have there grammar mistakes or typos so please bear with it. 

 

 

I am fully aware changes cant be made overnight. Just to give some stuff to think about or consider what might / or has to be changed in the future for the sake of balance and a dynamic playstyle.

 

Just read the conclussions if you are lazy to read it  :heh: 

 

In this topic I want to talk about some of my thoughts regarding twins. PvE slightly and PvP when it comes to utility, damage or what I think is the core of twin playstyle. I will try to keep the descriptions short if you want to ask anything or post your opinion why you think so or its completely garbage explain why then feel free to do so all constructive criticism is more then welcome.

 

Dont ask me please why I do this. I got University holidays so let me..   :heh:

 

Lets start with the main topic at hand right from the start Blocking skills..

 

 

Weaving, Power Weaving, Definite Defence ( blocking skills )

 

PvE : Weaving skills help a lot when it comes to being lazy at avoiding skills from bosses that will most likely instantly kill you ( pillars from paris, Elgas carpet bombing... ) but besides bosses no real use in PvE

 

PvP : A very very strong and annoying mechanic ( which has been already nerfed ) but in my opinion its completely unnecesary to have. We got already one invincible twin why should the other one be invincible too? The 2 weaving skills just lower the skill cap required for twin..

Then the Definite defence – this skill is just used to cast your ghost fighter right away with invincibility and close to no risks ( we will get later into it when discussing Ghost fighter below ) Besides that it got no other use.

 

Conclussion : For the sake of the comunity who hate to deal with overconfident twins blocking every skill and  twins to finaly learn how to play properly their class remove all blocking skills or at least ban them from PvP. ( since it got some use in PvE )

 

 

Ghost Fighter ( cast time 1 second )

 

Oh yes this one was my favorite to discuss

 

PvE : Basicly no use it got a cast time plus it has to be done in fusion mode.

 

PvP : Ghost fighter has been said one of the most problematic skills ingame due to its reliable catching ability and low cooldown. The main problem I see in this skill is the Definite Defence skill ( the yellow bubble ) giving the caster invincibility towards dmg and not allowing all enemies to stopcast the skill. When you use it without the the bubble the enemy needs basicly just 1 hit from stopping you to cast it making this skill close to unusable in team fights stunning the whole enemy team into oblivion.

 

Conclussion : The main problem is the use Definite Defence. Remove this skill and Ghost Fighter problem should be solved because people have to think if they want to use it as a opener leaving them wide open or rather as a combo filler ( which is in my opinion the proper use of this skill ).

 

Insider Facts ( not realy  :heh: ) how to deal with Ghost Fighter : ( the bubble lasts 1,5 seconds and ghostfighters cast time is 1 second dont forget the animation of the bubble )

One general rule against ghost fighter – Jump up and do your air combo slowly ( wasnt that hard was it? ) 

 

Summoners : GF will target your summons aswell just jump up use your downshot wait till it ends impact presser and there.

 

Sentinnel : just place a silencing trap / freezing trap and let him GF into a Tesla coil

 

Destroyer : Jump and shotdown when he casts it. Flashbang penetrates the Yellow bubble too.

 

Warlock : use Blizzard and stay in it, Fire emblem

 

Invoker : You can bypass the bubble with Barbarian, Frog. ( Insider : Last Bsq I got so badly outplayed by a good Invoker when I teleported on him he blinked back and froze me :D that were some playz there )

 

Dragoon : Jump up Dragon dive / aerial frenzy

 

Overlord : Yeah this is the class that is I think the hardest to counter it but basicly jump up do yur slow x x x attack then the pink hammer to remain in air and then cutdown to lift up the twin

 

Ninja : Either go for a risk using Hypnotizer on the yellow bubble ( it penetrates it ) or just jump up in your ninja frenzy where u can hit like 6 or w/e times in air and just cutdown

 

Savage : Moonwalk

 

Twin : Just weave out of it. If weave hopefully gets removed then counter it with your twins infinite kicking while you jump up.

 

No you wont learn this stuff overnight practice.

 

 

Power fist  ( mostly PvP related )

( please fix the animation of Power fist already xD )

 

PvE : Basicly not a usefull skill , low dmg reliable stun tho.

 

PvP :  The skill has a low cooldown with a high stun duration. What I think we should just increase the skills cooldown slightly since its a good catch ability as in for you and for your enemy too you have to execute it on close range giving the enemy chance to catch you too.

 

 

At Speed light ( buff )

The problem with this skill its stopcastable at the end of the cast time and still getting the buff making it possible to keep it up 24/7 ( when it wears of it shoud have a 10 sec cooldown until recast is avaible again )

Either reduce the MS / AS given by this ability or make it instant cast so nobody can stopcast it that way ( !!!!!!!! REMINDER!!!!!!!! ) before fixing this ability please think about the end animation of the skill being uncancellable making you vulnerable for 1,5 seconds when the cast is done so please cut the animation too when you want to fix it.

 

 

 

General thoughts skills, abilities, combos, what I think could be changed for a more dynamic playstyle.

Twins are one of the most fun classes to play due to the amounts of skills they have making your combos spamless ( no skill used twice in a combo ) and very effective.

 

 

About combos

The only problem I see there is the amount of skill points that is required to play this class ( yes this again :P ) I farmed as of now 400 skill pts and for having all skills in PvP ( not maxed out at least on their effective lvl where they hit stuff on the ground ) you need around + 840 skill pts ( when you hit lvl 85 ) to get them not mentioning max them out 1720. So maybe a skill point reduction on some skills like on summoner so people will actualy work with both twins at once and not just x spam with the main twin.

The other thing would be lowering the X spams damage in a way how it works on invokers / summoners right now. Making players to use more skills rather then just keep a brick on that x spam button.

Conclussion: Reducing the abiliti skill point requirements plus the x spam nerf to get away from this X spam ingame playstyle and give it more of a dynamic combo fighter breath.

 

 

Fusion and Fist Harmony

When we already have 2 figures at our dispossal with both having a bunch of abilities to use why not just use one twin and X spam with the other twin? ( yeah sounds garbage right? )

Thats why I started the thing with the skill points above we need to encourage people to actualy play a class how it most likely was meant to be played ( remember there were no ridiculous att speed items when they came out )

 

Fist of Harmony needs to be a little bit buffed or somehow usefull reworked to enforce this kind of playstyle. You need to hit 1 ability of your twin one of yours and then one of your twins again ( or vice versa ) to invoke this effect. You are not allowed to x spam in between because it cancels out the effect. The  effect ramps up to 2 or 3 times ( dunno dont have the skill points for it yet :P ). When using the Fusion abilities : Finish impact or Finish Move it creates a field where everyone inside gets lowered hp ( close to nothing ) and a slight bleed ability plus giving you some bonus stats ( movement speed ) . This skill has got a lot of potentian and should be made great again  :heh:

 

Conclussion : Reworking that skill, or giving it a small utility stun ( 0.5 sec / 1 sec max! ) or boosting the passive hp reduction and bleed effect.

 

 

Fusion

This skill is used to just ghostfighter people around, hidin your twin so it wont get pushed down or returning it to you after its lost somewhere ( like zoro from one piece ) so basicly nothing special. I think this is one of those fantastic mechanics completely underrated and underpowered. It could get some more use with maybe a new ability . Or giving it some more damage / burst power when using skills inside it ( like the Rage but due to the lack of skills nobody uses it )

 

Conclussion : Not now but somewhere in the future might be cool to work around this mechanic since we have more then enough single character skills already for both of the twins.

 

Insider info for new players :

 

Fusion boost : This skill reduces the animation time between skills in fusion mode. When you cast ghostfighter you can stopcast the ability with another fusion ability just by clicking on it.

 

We want a 4th job passive !  :heh:  ( not like we got the SP for it  :heh:  )

 

 

I guess this should be all for my opinions towards twins. You can post your opinions, critics and please explain yourself why you think so thats the point of a discussion.

 

AND KEEP THIS TOPIC CLEAN NO HARRASMENT ( sarcasm is allowed :D ) OR ELSE YOU WILL GET REPORTED STRAIGHT AWAY.

 

I want to keep this topic serious so please respect that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Kristof3195, 24 February 2018 - 04:30 AM.

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#2 XiongmaoLin

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 05:47 AM

Weaving [...]
For [...] twins to finaly learn how to play properly their class remove all blocking skills or at least ban them from PvP.

 
Twin Fighters can weave, thus weaving is part of playing them properly: I am not playing Sorcerer well when I leave Emblem of fire unused.

You might need to review your wording if you do not want players to feel offended.
 

 

Ghost Fighter [...]
How to deal with Ghost Fighter

 
Which is it again? Is Ghost fighter a problem, or is it a suicidal move against a number of them since Definite defence lasts about the time of the cast? (Sorcerer for example, again)
 

 

Otherwise bugfixes and various quality of life features are all welcome on my side. I still have not invested a single point in Fusion-related stuff seeing all the cool skills I would be missing.


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#3 Coolsam

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 06:34 AM

Probably the two biggest gripes I have with Power Fist is;
1) It's attack speed scaling. Which at high % is near instant and can even be used as an alternate catching tool without other skills.
2) Stun duration. Though people will argue that it's necessary, the twins already have great cc in the form of their knockbacks, training time and ghost fighters stun.

Ghost Fighter on the other hand...
1) It's range hit detection. If you're so much as inside it's maximum range (Which is large as is) as the channeling begins, it's a catch. Even if you dash/run multiple screens away.
2) Too short channel time. It lasts exactly the duration of a 100% block shielding skill.
3) The ease of canceling Fusion mid-animation to follow with Infinite Kicking>Power Fist.

The shield should get some type of canceling when channeling a skill. As it stands only classes with a block ignoring skill can intercept a twin but only if their reaction speed is adept. Priest might be the only class that can do this well. Other than that;
Dragoon- Probably unable to do anything through shield.
Overlord- Stumblebum with precise reaction speed.
Sentinel- Just drop a telsa>freeze and wait. The animation and stun hits gets stopped by electric and freeze counter catches.
Destroyer- Flashbang but basically risk instantly getting caught.
Savage- Moonwalk but cooldown is long.
Sorcerer- Fire Symbol or stand on your own Blizzard.
Twin- Weave and run.
Summoner- As above said, abuse how the skill warps between targets and stand with summons. Or try to time a rolling stone to where they warp inside it.
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#4 Kristof3195

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 07:49 AM

 
Twin Fighters can weave, thus weaving is part of playing them properly: I am not playing Sorcerer well when I leave Emblem of fire unused.

You might need to review your wording if you do not want players to feel offended.
 

 

 
Which is it again? Is Ghost fighter a problem, or is it a suicidal move against a number of them since Definite defence lasts about the time of the cast? (Sorcerer for example, again)
 

 

Otherwise bugfixes and various quality of life features are all welcome on my side. I still have not invested a single point in Fusion-related stuff seeing all the cool skills I would be missing.

If people get offended by constructive criticism they might have it tough in life, regardless of that this topic is about free opinions so if they feel offended they should write it down and state why.

 

Well it is a problem and its not ( i call it the noob filter but that might offend people ) Basicly if you know the already stated Insider facts you know how to avoid / counter this skill. 

Since this is not the case for ugh 90% of the community? Instead of finding a way how to deal with it they just flame you and ignore what ever encounter with a twin due to this so I just wanted to clarify some things.

 

You can try out the fist of harmony if so when you are leveling its very usefull against bombs in f7. 

 

Coolsam :

 

Indeed it is bothersome that skill but on the other hand its realy hard to find a place for that skill to find a proper place in a fluent combo ( yes I use macros whoaa ) :D So I feel like power fist is the ultimate catch ability to go for. 

Since lets say if you conduct fair PvP without using a skill twice the moment you use Infinite kicking as a catcher ur not permited to use it a second time due to my own etiquette of PvP. But if this kind of PvP etiqutte cant be enforced then yes your point is valid .

 

to GF 

- Stumblebum does the same once you are in the scan radar you will get hit too no matter how fast you run. The hit scan mechanic no matter what skill is troublesome.

- As already stated that shield should get " Thrown out of a window" since its only use is to get a ghost fighter off.

- Yes it is easy but none of those skills you mentioned hit people in the air making my countermeasure of jumping up  again working 100% adequate to this situation.

 

To all the classes you mentioned all got a way to deal with it as I already wrote it down above. Neither ghost fighter or power fist, infinite kicking give super armor so being weak to heavy launches like dragon dive awakening is the drawback of the skill.

 


Edited by Kristof3195, 24 February 2018 - 07:59 AM.

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#5 a240sxtypex

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 07:56 AM

I think its up to the player if they want to use Weave in pvp or not but you cant use weave vs Invokers so weave doesnt really help witth that.

 

And lets get a Head Count of how many people actual stacked/ played a twin and is Active END GAME from what i see so far maybe two twins only? Could be wrong 


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#6 a240sxtypex

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 08:00 AM

I think Weave is needed to play a twin for sure cause theres so many skills that Once touches the 2nd twin all skills used cancels and goes on Cool down, thats why popcorn removed 1 weave from bsq/EW to keep it some what balance in a way.

Plus for using the Yellow shield twins uses its not instant you got to Fusion then Yellow it takes time its not instantly cast 

 


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#7 a240sxtypex

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 08:03 AM

Theres too many Bugs with the Twin class that Cant be fix in little time and every skill on twin has a bug in a way, Since Nerfing is going around i guess Twin class is next LOL since Everyone seems to play the class 

 


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#8 Kristof3195

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 08:29 AM

The question is why are there so few twins around? People usualy complain how op this class is but noone actualy plays it I wonder is it too hard for people to play? Too expensive?  ( ofc its not in the meta for teamfights but it is a great catcher of flags ) 

Dunno what you meant with your second post but I think its not necesary to our playstyle at all.

There are few bugs but its not that horrible that litteraly all skills have a bug. If i should brainstorm count all skills maybe 6-7 come into my mind? 


Edited by Kristof3195, 24 February 2018 - 08:29 AM.

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#9 stiffyliffyriffy

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 08:35 AM

How many players actually even play with twins in EW, PVP and BSQ in the whole server? So quick to jump the gun on trying to nerf another class that almost no one plays :)

 

Ok, since you wanted to have a discussion. Lets have one. 

 

First of twins block has already been nerfed previously for Battlesquare and Emporia War.  Twins are only able to use Power weave. If you didn't know already Weaving has been disabled in both Battlesquare and Emporia War. Furthermore, Definite defense is not a reliable defensive skill since it only lasts for 2 seconds and requires one to recall their twin to use it. In addition, Definite defence has a long cooldown of 15 seconds. Only when using Definite defense in conjunction with ghost fighter it becomes deadly. These skills are part of a twins kit made and intended for them to use. Another skill of twins that have already been restricted in Emporia war and battlesquare is Rebound.

 

Fusion is not only used to ghost fighter. Its mainly used to recall one's twin once it has been knocked down. The players twins are very fragile and the main player is left vulnerable without his twin.

Ghost Fighter- a longer cool down would be in order since it can be spammed over and over. 

 

Power fist is like barbarian for twins. Twins need this skill to actively try to chase and stun their opponent. Their other skills are not as reliable since it requires them to throw their twin out randomly to hope to catch their opponent. Furthermore, powerfist is like a filler skill that twins use with x spam to deal more damage in combination with their combos.

Twins are not heavily x spam reliant like summoners, invokers and grenadiers. They can only x spam once their twin catches their opponent and are extremely vulnerable when trying to do so in battlesquare and emporia war since the distance for them to punch is in close quarters combat and can be easily disrupted by others. (no range)

Training time as mentioned above is not a reliable catching tool for twins it is a skill one uses in combination with other twin skills once the player is caught and it only has a 50% (5/5) chance maybe less to turn a person into a log for a duration of 3 seconds. 


There are passive skills that doesn't even do anything on twin with or without these passives twins seem to remain unaffected these are Heavy Blow and Iron fist training. Something else that might need to be looked into and tested. 
 


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#10 Kristof3195

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 09:38 AM

I seriously dont understand why nobody plays it. Either its because of the high amount of skills they have, the lack of utility in teamfights ( doubt this one ) or its the nostalgia for other classes people have from Dragonica? Who knows its still one of the strongest 1v1 classes ingame

 

Yes I love discussions thank you  :heh:

 

Since im playing a twin Im well aware of that . It lasts for 1.5 seconds and out of those 1.5 seconds you have to count down the animation time too. I might disagree there with you if it would have been intendet as a combination why did they not put it in the same skill tree?

 

That has been already said in the topic above if you read just the conclussions. The problem is you have a invincible twin shield and still have a close to invincible block defense skill that gets rid of some of the most annoying skills ingame ( spear jab, cross cut, head spin, shotdown and so on )

 

See this is the problem I was talking about why should twins rely on X spam when they got tons of skills to use? Why dont we abolish all skills and just kill ourselves with only X attacks in PvP? 

Wasnt the recent X- attack nerf plus skill point reduction on summoners meant to show them that there is another path of playing this class besides buying a Razer naga brick for your X button? 

 

Oh and since bsq and EW is crowded nowadays many people experience heavy fps drops ( at least my garbo laptop  :heh: ) and with this its close to impossible to make heavy X spam damage so I turn to a longer combo with a combi of many skills. 

 

How did you come to a 50% chance? Where did you read it?  It says it transforms the enemy not that it has a chance to transform it. IF you mean the 50% at the end it increases their defense by 50% when they are transformed. And I never use it as a catcher its more of a combo filler skill to give you a small break after bashing all those buttons to get a combo off so you can continue where you stopped. 

 

Dont know about iron fist training but I can certainly tell you that Heavy blow passive works. 

 

 


Edited by Kristof3195, 24 February 2018 - 09:41 AM.

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#11 Coolsam

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 09:58 AM

Twin is mostly unpopular because... well no one who has one is a Twin main. There were like 3-5 dedicated from release to today "Twin only" players of the class. The rest made one for lower level PvP as a secondary because of how evasive they are and how viable their damage is. Even after caps. It's main problem was what Summoner was at first, it's clearly not something you wanna play without research. Even the top Twins from NA went to IAH/Gpotato while we were waiting for New Origin to get themselves some research.

Endgame before changes to Elements and BattleSquare Twins only filled a role as a fast stun/catch bot. They had Archer speed, Pre-Nerf Paladin Protection, and sort of laughed at most crowd controls. MS caps and weave being blocked kind of made their popularity diminish because no more one-button 2fast2quick with 1/3rd of their immunity gone. Also you couldn't troll with Wheel of Fortune anymore.

Now they had a small resurgence as their damage actually works vs all classes, capped ms wasn't as bad a dent as it made their jobs easy as well and 2 out of 3 100% blocks are still good.

I'm not saying Twin is easy. If anything picking it up at first and learning the sequence of skills is probably the hardest class to start with. But once you know the basics, well that's it, anything else is just fluff for looking cool or risky launch combos.
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#12 Kristof3195

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 01:07 AM

Yes that might be part of the reason why people avoid this class. From asking all over newbie twins people are being overwhelmed by the amounts of skill when they open up the the talent trees and how bad twin in PvE is ( measured in verdurous forest clearing time ). After some explanation and giving some tips as of what is necesary for PvE and how to increase clearing speed in VF they actualy like the class. I hope new people will get hooked up and will ask for some advice before quitting this class.

 

Wasnt every class just a catch bot back then when summoners and invokers were roaming our realms? :D

 

Yeah that might be true but on the other hand I dont think twins have that much fluff all of their abilities are damage or utility relevant ( as in hits on the ground targets or knocks them up etc.. ) But yeah I understand what you trying to say.

 

Anyways what do you think about the Fusion and Fist of harmony part I kind of em hooked up on those 2 mostly. I am missing 2 more skills relevant to Fusion status because of *shivers* Skill points and I want to test them if its worth to use them in PvP situations.


Edited by Kristof3195, 25 February 2018 - 01:12 AM.

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