168 replies to this topic

[blackCROSSCY]

snake hat is way better for a katar gx. First of all, you get 1.5x dmg compared to any other class getting only 1.25x using snake hat. Wearing FAW gives you 56% crit dmg too, which should be stronger than eddga.

In essence, it’s almost always that snake hat + faw is stronger than eddga+ surcoat, especially with that f@rking RTB.

Although overall the top option is none of the above, being an OBC with acute enchant and just adding a sidewinder card. Lose one 25%atk from AK, gain 1.5x and acute 5 gives 50% crit.

Edited by blackCROSSCY, 26 July 2018 - 04:15 AM.

[Kirito927]

push for iro customization to disable RTB at a certain refine level lol

+1 for this , mayb JRO shall make it

When refine +10 , disable RTB


Or

Set Effect
Battle Subcoat
Petal Card

Disable auto casting RTB

Edited by Kirito927, 27 July 2018 - 01:29 AM.

[Ashuckel]

no

[CadburyChocolate]

why is this evaluation still not done

[Hogbae]

+1 for this , mayb JRO shall make it

When refine +10 , disable RTB


Or

Set Effect
Battle Subcoat
Petal Card

Disable auto casting RTB

 

Why not make it enchantable in kitchen's Valk like FAW too? =3=

[Penguins]

Why stop there? Let it be bio5 enchant-able also! Also let it accept costume enchantment. Oh...open up all 4 card slots.

[Hogbae]

Why stop there? Let it be bio5 enchant-able also! Also let it accept costume enchantment. Oh...open up all 4 card slots.

This is one of the reasons you’d have my vote for presidency, Pen.

[angelopaol1011]

+1 for this , mayb JRO shall make it

When refine +10 , disable RTB


Or

Set Effect
Battle Subcoat
Petal Card

Disable auto casting RTB

 

+1 for this.

 

Also, when will enforcer cape[1] be fixed?
And when will Fallen Warrior Armor[1] be released?

[Hogbae]

+1 for this.

 

Also, when will enforcer cape[1] be fixed?
And when will Fallen Warrior Armor[1] be released?

 

I believe Campitor said Enforcer Cape is in their fix-list, but haven't gotten any dates yet.

[4664180423171049233]

If the developers think enabling level 10 Double Attack on a garment is too powerful without some kind of offset, fine: Put an orthogonal penalty on it, like -10% to maxHP; or make the required upgrade to unlock level 10 even more severe, like +12.  If RTB is meant as a "balance" to Level 10 Double Attack, it's misconceived: These skills work at cross purposes.  The people who would want a garment like this are playing high aspd crit builds, and RTB can't crit and imposes an attack delay.  It's perfectly fine to introduce some negatives to keep Battle Surcoat from being an obvious BIS slam dunk, but adding RTB autocast breaks the item for builds it's suppose to enhance.  It'd be like creating an item that boosts CRIT by 50 but imposes -30% critical damage.  And if RTB was actually supposed to add value for this item, well, uh... it doesn't.  So no matter how you look at it, Battle Surcoat needs some kind of adjustment.  The easy way out would be to add a refinement level scaling +% crit damage or ATK modifier to make up for the delay and lack of crit on RTB, but that still leaves an item with fundamentally broken mechanics.  It'd be conceptually cleaner to remove RTB and find a more rational way to balance Level 10 Double Attack, assuming that's what RTB was meant to do.

Edited by 4664180423171049233, 28 July 2018 - 07:35 PM.

[blackCROSSCY]

since it’s a direct import item, the thought is good but i doubt WP will make any custom changes. This garment is just a huge junk

[Hogbae]

since it’s a direct import item, the thought is good but i doubt WP will make any custom changes. This garment is just a huge junk

 

Hyped junk indeed.

[Wolfen]

Or you know, since we are lacking so much updates, just ask to give us the rtb crit patch and fix it at the point kro fixed it

[Ashuckel]

kRO purposefully removed crit from rtb, the odds of them sending the patch reversal are as good as them giving a crap about woe :U

[Hogbae]

kRO purposefully removed crit from rtb, the odds of them sending the patch reversal are as good as them giving a crap about woe :U

Well, we are already getting no craps in IRO, what to say about KRO. LOL

[S207]

I like to think RTB its a negative buff and intented. I have read "You get X% compared to Snake Head", but snake head is top headgear and this is garment, both of em prevents you to use a good helmet, or a good garment. its all about ur choises.

 

Back inthread: Yes, RTB screw it, but its fine as is, is intented to be like this, its the balance itself in the item. If WP "fix" the item, it will be OP and ppl will complain for whatever.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OCP items we got with "iRO customization" are being fixed to the original version, why to do the opposite with this?

[INREM]

Has it been determined exactly how the after (or before...) cast delay on Battle Surcoat's RTB affects regular auto-attacks?  I did some napkin math, and it looks like this is actually the biggest issue impacting the viability of this thing, far more so than the fact that RTB can't crit.  If the delay on RTB acts like a straight up addition to attack delay, then that is absolutely god awful and makes this item worse than useless.  If the delay only stalls another RTB, that is annoying but far less concerning.

[Hogbae]

Has it been determined exactly how the after (or before...) cast delay on Battle Surcoat's RTB affects regular auto-attacks? I did some napkin math, and it looks like this is actually the biggest issue impacting the viability of this thing, far more so than the fact that RTB can't crit. If the delay on RTB acts like a straight up addition to attack delay, then that is absolutely god awful and makes this item worse than useless. If the delay only stalls another RTB, that is annoying but far less concerning.

Acts like straight up add to atk delay. But it can be reduced as already mentioned in the discussion.

[mildcontempt]

Feel free to grab your own napkin and pen if you don't trust what others have shown. 

[INREM]

Okay, if it's literally true that RTB's delay adds directly to attack delay, that is a real shame, because it basically ruins this garment for the auto attack builds which (I can only assume) are the target audience.  And I don't mean ruin in the sense of "well, Battle Surcoat is relatively non-competitive with a well-enchanted FAW," I mean ruin in the sense of, "you might be better off wearing nothing at all in that slot than wearing a +9 Battle Surcoat."  I'm not joking.  

 

Let's assume you can achieve a 100% base crit rate and 193 aspd with or without Battle Surcoat (hardly unreasonable).  At 193 aspd, you attack at a rate of approximately 7.1 times per second, or one attack every 0.14s.  All of these will be critical hits.  Let's also assume that you have sufficient DEX and AGI to reduce RTB's cast delay to 0.33s (i.e., a substantial but not abnormal investment in these stats).¹  You might wonder, at a mere fraction of a second, how bad could the impact of RTB's delay on auto-attack DPS really be?  It looks like, really god damn bad.  When you equip a +9 Battle Surcoat, your stream of auto attacks basically splits into three groups, each with its own effective attack rate:

• On 20% of your hits, RTB will trigger (remember, RTB has priority!).  Its total attack time will be 0.14s+0.33s, or 0.47s, i.e., 3.36 times as long as a regular attack.  Yes, RTB "hits" three times, but because it can't crit, this is, if we're being generous, basically a wash with a single critical hit assuming decent gear.  So for practical purposes, this is a half second critical hit.²  
• On 40% of your hits, Level 10 Double Attack will trigger, letting you crit twice and effectively doubling your attack speed (Double Attack, you're our only hope!) to 0.07s per hit.
• On 40% of your hits, you'll attack at your normal 0.14s per hit rate.

So, how does this all add up?  The long run effective critical hit attack rate under our assumptions should be: 0.2*0.47s + 0.4*0.07s + 0.4*0.14s, or 0.094s + 0.028s + 0.056s or 0.178s per hit.  That is, for the low, low price of admission to a +9 Battle Surcoat³, auto attack DPS dropped by 27%.  (Per notes below, however, this is actually optimistic - for many players the DPS loss is likely to be much worse).

 

This cannot be intended - the mechanics of this thing are literally broken.  And perversely, Battle Surcoat becomes more useless and broken the higher your aspd and crit rate/damage become.  That is absurd.  You can't call RTB a "balance" to Level 10 Double attack when its impact is this bad.  If I have screwed up the math here I would welcome enlightenment, because I would love to love this item, but as far as I can see it is likely to be worse than useless for the only builds that would even give it a second look.

 

Notes:

⁽¹⁾ This is actually optimistic.  Lots of physical Rune Knights in particular shortchange AGI and DEX because you can get 193 aspd nowadays with minimal AGI and, of course, crits always hit.  In that case, RTB's delay could be much higher, half a second or more.  That level of delay has a truly awful impact on DPS, cutting it by half or more.

 

⁽²⁾ Here again, this is actually optimistic as characters head into the end game.  RTB could easily shortfall a critical hit by double digit percentages in terms of damage, reducing DPS still further.

 

⁽³⁾ And God help you if you're using anything but a +9 Battle Surcoat - at lower upgrade levels, RTB procs more often, for lower damage, and DA procs less frequently... 

Edited by INREM, 01 August 2018 - 02:14 PM.

[Ashuckel]

It's not a balance factor, the garment gives it because it's another "multihit proc" and thats it. And for the record, this garment was released on jRO when DA Crit was very far away from being a thing. It doesnt need tweaks or adjustments. The gear is doing exactly what it is supposed to do: Enable RTB and DA, now if that is an improvement or detriment to each own player setup, that is for them to see and decide to use or not.

[INREM]

I suppose there's no possible counter argument to "item working as coded," but it would seem that "Rare" ranking on OCP might have been ill advised given the game's meta.  I'm sure there's many whimsical possibilities for stuffing crap in the upper echelons of future OCP drop tables, but it's not how I'd recommend doing things.

 

Personally I'm just hoping that the above comment is wrong, and that RTB delay doesn't directly block auto attacks, but I can't test yet.

Edited by INREM, 01 August 2018 - 11:25 AM.

[Penguins]

For crit builds, many have very low dex. So RTB completely misses. If the missed RTB does NOT initiates an auto-attack delay....then this is something to be considered. If even a RTB miss triggers auto-attack delay...then this gets even worse than your calculated hits per second.

 

20% atks do 0% dmg

40% atks do 200% dmg

40% atks do 100% dmg

 

If assuming a missed RTB does NOT trigger auto-attack delay, then it would be an overall 20% increase. I do not have it for testing, but can anyone confirm if RTB miss triggers auto-attack delay or not?

 

 

 

Okay, if it's literally true that RTB's delay adds directly to attack delay, that is a real shame, because it basically ruins this garment for the auto attack builds which (I can only assume) are the target audience.  And I don't mean ruin in the sense of "well, Battle Surcoat is relatively non-competitive with a well-enchanted FAW," I mean ruin in the sense of, "you might be better off wearing nothing at all in that slot than wearing a +9 Battle Surcoat."  I'm not joking.  

 

Let's assume you can achieve a 100% base crit rate and 193 aspd with or without Battle Surcoat (hardly unreasonable).  At 193 aspd, you attack at a rate of approximately 7.1 times per second, or one attack every 0.14s.  All of these will be critical hits.  Let's also assume that you have sufficient DEX and AGI to reduce RTB's cast delay to 0.33s (i.e., a substantial but not abnormal investment in these stats).¹  You might wonder, at a mere fraction of a second, how bad could the impact of RTB's delay on auto-attack DPS really be?  It looks like, really god damn bad.  When you equip a +9 Battle Surcoat, your stream of auto attacks basically splits into three groups, each with its own effective attack rate:

• On 20% of your hits, RTB will trigger (remember, RTB has priority!).  Its total attack time will be 0.14s+0.33s, or 0.47s, i.e., 3.36 times as long as a regular attack.  Yes, RTB "hits" three times, but because it can't crit, this is, if we're being generous, basically a wash with a single critical hit assuming decent gear.  So for practical purposes, this is a half second critical hit.²  
• On 40% of your hits, Level 10 Double Attack will trigger, letting you crit twice and effectively doubling your attack speed (Double Attack, you're our only hope!) to 0.07s per hit.
• On 40% of your hits, you'll attack at your normal 0.14s per hit rate.

So, how does this all add up?  The long run effective critical hit attack rate under our assumptions should be: 0.2*0.47s + 0.4*0.07s + 0.4*0.14s, or 0.094s + 0.028s + 0.056s or 0.178s per hit.  That is, for the low, low price of admission to a +9 Battle Surcoat³, auto attack DPS dropped by 27%.  (Per notes below, however, this is actually optimistic - for many players the DPS loss is likely to be much worse).

 

This cannot be intended - the mechanics of this thing are literally broken.  And perversely, Battle Surcoat becomes more useless and broken the higher your aspd and crit rate/damage become.  That is absurd.  You can't call RTB a "balance" to Level 10 Double attack when its impact is this bad.  If I have screwed up the math here I would welcome enlightenment, because I would love to love this item, but as far as I can see it is likely to be worse than useless for the only builds that would even give it a second look.

 

Notes:

⁽¹⁾ This is actually optimistic.  Lots of physical Rune Knights in particular shortchange AGI and DEX because you can get 193 aspd nowadays with minimal AGI and, of course, crits always hit.  In that case, RTB's delay could be much higher, half a second or more.  That level of delay has a truly awful impact on DPS, cutting it by half or more.

 

⁽²⁾ Here again, this is actually optimistic as characters head into the end game.  RTB could easily shortfall a critical hit by double digit percentages in terms of damage, reducing DPS still further.

 

⁽³⁾ And God help you if you're using anything but a +9 Battle Surcoat - at lower upgrade levels, RTB procs more often, for lower damage, and DA procs less frequently... 

 

Edited by Penguins, 01 August 2018 - 02:25 PM.

[mildcontempt]

Why speculate so much, you can just go on Sakray and test it -- complete with unlimited free stat/skill resets and guaranteed refining. 

[Akil]

I decided to make a really short video of my silly kitty with his new toy, +9 Battle Surcoat of Acid.  Not sure if the RTB slows him down but it feels like things die faster.